The FLDS situation is fascinating to watch evolve.

These Stepford-type women turn on the water-works when talking about their children being ripped away. But then they turn stone-faced and quiet when asked about the charges of child sex abuse.

Most organized religions ask for faith and loyalty to the cause. So are these women "brainwashed" as the media asks or are they just really really faithful?

Now I many not be too familiar with the FLDS religion, but i have read about many examples of gov't abuse of power. Apparantly, the Child Protection Service (CPS) had an undercover cop in the midst of the flock for 4 years and couldn't come up with any wrong-doing. But we get an anonyomous phone call from a mystery child and the police roll in and confiscate the kids.

We are told that we have to allow this type of police action to occur in order to protect the children. But do you see the major opportunity to use social services to attack your enemies?
All you do is make an anonymous phone call that your next-door neighbor is abusing his kids. Social services, if they follow this template, roll in and take your kids away, and your name is splashed all over the media as a likely child sex abuser. Never mind that the charges are cleared a month or so later... the damage is done.

And what if you are a politician in power and dislike any type of organized religion that falls outside the mainstream. You can make up a phone call from a desperate child and use it to justify the police raiding the church and throwing it into chaos and public disdain.

Yes we want to protect the children, and I can't understand why any woman would want to be a part of this particular church, but we have to be careful that we aren't giving the gov't too much power.

Is the protection of our children worth the potential damage and destruction to innocent lives caused by the unwarranted accusations of abuse?

4/16/2008 10:50:42 AM

Quote :

"Now I many not be too familiar with the FLDS religion, but i have read about many examples of gov't abuse of power. Apparantly, the Child Protection Service (CPS) had an undercover cop in the midst of the flock for 4 years and couldn't come up with any wrong-doing. But we get an anonyomous phone call from a mystery child and the police roll in and confiscate the kids."

I have a BIG problem with this and they're lucky this didn't turn out like Waco. If there is no abuse, and while these people are really weird, this amounts to religious persecution and we're supposed to be the land of the free. If they cannot turn up pregnant 13, 14 or 15 year old kids, then whoever ordered this raid should be punished for taking away the civil rights of a large population of people.

4/16/2008 10:54:29 AM

Quote :

"Apparantly, the Child Protection Service (CPS) had an undercover cop in the midst of the flock for 4 years"

how did they do this?

4/16/2008 11:16:27 AM

It wasn't an under cover cop. It was a disillusioned member who as calling the Child Protective Services and keeping them abreast of things.

4/16/2008 11:22:30 AM

^
Well even the "disillusioned member" couldn't come up with any actionable evidence either.

Quote :

"Some experts say it matters less if Sarah is never found or turns out not to exist. It is the strength or weakness of the state's evidence of alleged abuse found at the ranch that will matter when Judge Walther decides whether the 416 FLDS children will go to foster homes, they say. John J. Sampson, a University of Texas law professor and expert on family law, said those cases will focus on what investigators found once they were at the ranch. But if the state hopes to later bring criminal charges, they must find Sarah. "The problem for the state is this girl is the linchpin that holds together any criminal case against the group or even any individual," said Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor. "

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8941294

Amazing.. so according to "some experts", if the police pull you over just because they feel like it..and find strong evidence that you are carrying weed...their actions are justified? But then aren't we pretty much just a police state?

4/16/2008 11:36:00 AM

when it comes to child abuse, the state has been granted a large path to walk down. In all likelihood, they will return the children who are underage to the parents, but those minor children who are of marrying age within the Church, who are married, and those who are pregnant will not be returned.

There is mass statuatory rape going on with the FLDS. It was only a matter time before something happened.

Quote :

"Amazing.. so according to "some experts", if the police pull you over just because they feel like it..and find strong evidence that you are carrying weed...their actions are justified? But then aren't we pretty much just a police state?"

the police can pull you over for whatever they want to pull you over for. Whether or not they can get a conviction is another story and no, it isn't a police state. People are too quick to throw around the terms, police state, nanny state, fascist, etc.

[Edited on April 16, 2008 at 12:09 PM. Reason : .]

4/16/2008 12:08:24 PM

Any possibility they pursue incest charges as well, or if they run into difficulty making a case on other ones? Given the isolated and intermarried nature of the community, I imagine there is a fair amount of that going on (either legally defined incest or behavior approaching the legal definition of incest).

4/16/2008 1:40:16 PM

Incest in many instances is defined by the State in which the marriage took place. for instance, it is legal for 1st cousins to marry in Nevada, but not so in North Carolina. That does not mean that first cousins who get married in Nevada and move to North Carolina are automatically in danger of getting charged with incest. Within the FLDS community in Texas, Arizona, and Utah, they are getting married closer than what society at-large is doing, but that does not make it incest. Technically, they can be charged with bigamy, but with the polygynist sects, they are wise to only have one legal spouse. the remainder of the spouses are spritual only. Therefore, it is impossible for the State to bring bigamy charges since they only have one spouse of record with the State.

4/16/2008 1:46:36 PM

Quote :

"the police can pull you over for whatever they want to pull you over for. Whether or not they can get a conviction is another story "

I disagree that police are allowed to pull you over without probable cause. Perhaps the WWFers who are in law enforcement can comment better. I doubt the police are encouraged to arrest or hassle any citizen without a pretty good likelihood of a conviction.

I think the governor of Texas is putting alot of pressure on these investigators to find "Sarah" and some type of illegal activity. Everyday that passes without any evidence or the witness who brought the case casts more doubt on the situation.

And soon, an army of lawyers will descend into the situation on behalf of the church...thus weakening the state's case even more. That combined with the incompetence of the gov't...I could predict no convictions and most of the children being returned to their mothers.

4/16/2008 9:29:12 PM

if -they find out the charges are true- yes, send them all to orphanages and get them out of that rotten place

but

if -the find out the charges aren't true- oh buddy, we've got ourselves some history in the making, i have no clue what willl happen then, poor people i guess. i guess they better start raiding all the ghettos of major us cities, b/c there is sure the be some major abuse of children in most downtowns.


this is the small sect that broke off from the mormon church in the 1800's that decided that polygamy was OK isn't it?

[Edited on April 16, 2008 at 9:34 PM. Reason : .]

4/16/2008 9:33:44 PM

Just now on CNN they showed CNN reporters and videocameras allowed inside the ranch. One of the wives gave them a tour, of the bedrooms (several), living room (1), dining room (1), sewing room where they make all their clothes, etc, and she showed them pics of her daughter and said she loves her very much.

She looked like she was in her mid-20's perhaps... and she had an 1800's style hairdo. I have never seen a hairdo like that before, except in pictures and movies.

I have always been interested in Mormons, Amish, and other sects like that (or religions, as they would say).

4/17/2008 4:10:02 AM

What do they do with the excess boys, sacrifice them to the others?

4/17/2008 4:26:58 AM

^http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Boys_of_Polygamy

4/17/2008 5:23:16 AM

DNA tests should prove just about everything we already know about the church.

I do believe a good lawyer could prove that some part of the constitution has been violated here, but of all the millions of Americans who have had their constitutional rights crossed, these folks are pretty low on my list o' givin a shit.

4/17/2008 6:09:44 AM

Quote :

"this is the small sect that broke off from the mormon church in the 1800's that decided that polygamy was OK isn't it?"

You have it backwards. It's one of the sects that broke off from the mormon church when LDS decided polygamy wasn't OK.

4/17/2008 9:51:39 AM

^Nah, he got it right. He just said it kinda funny.

[Edited on April 17, 2008 at 9:56 AM. Reason : I think I knew what he meant.]

4/17/2008 9:55:49 AM

We have a battle of the cults. The FLDS acts as if it owns the women and children in..and the state of Texas also acts as if it owns the children of the state. It recently began forcing all teenage girls to undergo a controversal STD vaccination by decree of the governor.

Texas is now saying that it doesn't need to produce the mysterious Sarah in order to keep the children permanently.

What is also interesting is that various states were implicit in allowing this cult to function. Each polygamous mother, not recognized as legally married, was allowed to recieve welfare benefits to raise their children. The church was allowed to run its own gov't-funded school district in Arizona.
And the Utah side of the cult was alowed to have a gov't-recognized police force.

This idea that our children really ultimately belong to the state is quite disturbing.

4/17/2008 11:01:44 AM

Quote :

"And the Utah side of the cult was alowed to have a gov't-recognized police force. "

THis isn't exactly true. The town is controled by the FLDS, which means the mayor, town council etc. were all FLDS and they made the hiring decisions of the police force. That has changed recently when the AG for Utah decertified the police there and sent in the State police.

4/17/2008 11:12:04 AM

Quote :

"it is legal for 1st cousins to marry in Nevada, but not so in North Carolina"

Well, let's let what happens in Vegas stay in Vegas.

4/17/2008 11:18:46 AM

My point was that the mainstream Mormon church said that polygamy was OK (see Joseph Smith and Brigham Young). It was when the Mormon church changed it's doctrine, that these splinter groups broke away. It is noteworthy that at the time LDS's president did away with polygamy is a part of the Mormon doctrine, Utah's efforts to gain statehood had been unsuccessful due to anti-polygamy sentiment in the rest of the country. After the official discontinuance of polygamy in 1890, Utah was granted statehood in in 1896.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints.2C_and_Mormon_fundamentalists

In other words, FLDS and other splinter groups may be loonies, but they are correct in that they are more in line with Mormon doctrine circa mid-1800s than the Mormon church itself. LDS, of course, rejects categorizing these groups as "Mormon" in anyway, as they are not in keeping with contemporary LDS doctrine.

4/17/2008 2:51:00 PM

^i've always wondered about that....if smith's "visions" were the end all be all mormon doctrine, how did the mainstream justify the polygamy change w/o falsifying the whole religion since it was part of his original divine doctine?

4/17/2008 2:58:11 PM

There are so many splinter groups, many who broke off before the mormons even went West. The way the mainstream church gets around the polygamy question is by saying that it is an everlasting covenant, but god has for the time being told them not to do it.

Also, it must be noted, that while the church officially stopped polygamy, they still recognized polygamist marriages until the last polygamist died. It took two manifestos to end church sanctioned polygamy.

4/17/2008 3:17:40 PM

nutsmackr covered it

[Edited on April 17, 2008 at 3:20 PM. Reason : .]

4/17/2008 3:19:31 PM

i feel compelled to link to my older thread on this:
message_topic.aspx?topic=394335

4/17/2008 4:24:36 PM

I am watching Larry King Live right now and the whole episode is about the FLDS ranch and everything is crystal clear now.

I say:

FUCK THESE FLDS PEOPLE

TAKE ALL THE CHILDREN AND WOMEN AWAY FROM THERE

KEEP THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN TOGETHER IN GOVERNMENT HOMES WITH SECURITY

JAIL ALL THE MEN AND TORTURE THE SHIT OUT OF THEM

DESTROY ALL THE PROPERTY OWNED BY FLDS AND DISBAND THE CULTURE/RELIGION/SOCIETY



WHERE ARE THE MEN FIGHTING FOR THEIR CHILDREN?

WHY IS IT JUST THE WOMEN APPEARING ON TV FOR INTERVIEWS, APPEARING IN COURT FOR THEIR CHILDREN?

THEY ARE SAYING "the children need their mothers" and "they need to come home to their mothers", etc.

WHERE ARE THE FATHERS?


I will tell you where they are:

They are hiding behind their abused wives away from the limelight, so as not to face questioning about abuses they commit daily, such as beatings, rapes, abandonment of male children, etc.




AS I SAID, DESTROY THIS WHOLE THING.




I do want to go and try their bread... the most popular on-TV-these-days-mother gave a tour of the compound and she passed through the kitchen.

They had like 10-15 loaves of AMAZING LOOKING BREAD out ready still in the bread pans... and one of the chefs she said it is the best bread on earth!

Can I plz to have some?

I was thinking of visiting the US this summer... maybe I will stop by these people?




[Edited on April 18, 2008 at 5:51 AM. Reason : ]

4/18/2008 5:34:21 AM

^
wow, how american of you

I mean damn, dude -- if that's really what you think, then you're what's wrong with this country

good thing people who understand ethics and justice will forever prevent bigots like you from achieving much

4/18/2008 10:21:13 AM

I am not American.

And it doesn't matter where I am from. I believe in freedom of choice with regards to religion, marriage, speech, etc.

How is this community sustained, and others like it? Young men are thrown out in their teens. Young girls are forced to marry men 2-3 times their age, who are already married to 1-2 other women.

Children and women are beaten, water-boarded, raped, and even murdered, and then labeled as suicides.

So, as an American, you stand for murder, forced marriages, child abuse, abuse of women, rape, abandonment of children, re-assignment of husbands/wives, etc?

Think before you speak.

P.S. And you talk of "ethics" and "justice"?



[Edited on April 18, 2008 at 2:51 PM. Reason : ]

4/18/2008 2:26:49 PM

^I'm wasted. And I'll make this thing simple.

Here in the states, we're concerned with the Constitution in a way, you know. But these sickos you read about are somewhat protected by it.

However, it is so much more kickass than what your folks have going on (25 million witnesses to a rape must exist for a rape to be real)...and I know this personally because I have family in and from Iran (in all its three latest transitions)...so, yeah, tell me how your home country is different. Can't wait.

4/18/2008 10:14:37 PM

1) You are crazy-drunk
2) Iran is not my home country
3) Where did you see me defend injustices in Iran, or any other "home country" of mine?
4) I speak against inustice everwhere, even in my "home country" Iran, and other "home countries" of mine
5) Two wrongs don't make a right
6) You are crazy-drunk




[Edited on April 19, 2008 at 5:46 AM. Reason : ]

4/19/2008 5:44:58 AM

I've not known 0EPII1 to speak a serious word against human rights. Like many of us (including most of his opponents), he occasionally ventures into gray areas. That said, while we me disagree on the specifics, we have generally agreed on the points that human beings are entitled by their existence to freedom of choice in most major things.

And, frankly, if he and I both agree on something, it pretty much has to cover the human basics.

4/19/2008 6:58:11 AM

i think it's aweful how.. wait let me turn on the caps lock for emphasize like some of you seem to do.

FUCK THIS SHIT, THESE POOR PEOPLE HAVE A HANDFUL OF CASES OF ABUSE AND RAPE ETC....(it's still aweful what they did, i agree, but hear me out)

YET SOMEHOW THIS GOVERNMENT THINKS THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO RAID THE SHIT OUT OF THIS PLACE AND YOU MOTHERFUCKING IDIOTS WANT TO HAVE THEM TORTURED???

.... here it comes....

WHILE THE WHOLE CATHOLIC CHURCH THIS VERY MINUTE IS BEING EXONERATED AND GLORIFIED LIKE THE PUSSIES THEY ARE WITH LITERALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CASES STILL OPEN DEALING THE SAME RAPE AND ABUSE AND SODOMY!! wow. just wow. i haven't heard that these people were sodomizing boys.. but that whole catholic conglamoration can get a free pass????

hypocracy at it's finest. keep it up america.

4/19/2008 9:23:59 AM

In the Catholic church..even though a blind was was seemingly turned for many years...the wide-scale sexual abuse was eventually recognized as a bad thing.

But with the FLDS, the sexual abuse seems to be incorporated into the religion.

Perhaps that is why the leader of the FLDs sits in prison, while the leader of the Catholic church is holding mass masses in stadiums.

4/19/2008 11:00:42 AM

over 4,000 priests though. i mean i know that's only 5-10% of the catholic priests over hear, but still

yeh but i agree overall with the comments. the FLDS are pretty strange, they've got to go. i just feel like the massively widespread catholic problem get's thrown under the rug when it produced potentially magnitudes more problems in americans and psychological / sexual issues in future adults here b/c of the rape and stuff

4/19/2008 11:04:23 AM

Quote :

"CBS news- They'll also try to shield the children, raised in an insular community with no television and little contact with outsiders, from overexposure to mainstream society. "We're going to try to keep the children in groups so I don't think we're talking about your traditional foster setting," Azar said. "

does anyone know what type of counciling or provisions are being made for these children or what sort of short/ long term planning they have for them? Futhermore, there hasn't been much disscussion oh how the state of texas plans do deal with the strain that the Yearning for Zion children will place on the social system?

4/21/2008 12:09:12 PM

^they are the state of texas...they dont need plans

4/21/2008 12:51:05 PM

so wait. are we now assuming that they did abuse the kids? I'm not paying attention on the news, cause I can't stand to watch any of that crap now.

4/21/2008 6:26:34 PM

16 year olds pregnant and married to 50+ year old men is abuse.

4/21/2008 7:45:36 PM

i'm all for freedom of religion as long as it doesnt hurt other people and i agree with nutsmackr that this is fucked up

4/21/2008 7:46:43 PM

Quote :

"^i've always wondered about that....if smith's "visions" were the end all be all mormon doctrine, how did the mainstream justify the polygamy change w/o falsifying the whole religion since it was part of his original divine doctine?"

Just wanted to clarify, that mormons believe in a living prophet. So, while joseph smiths revelations on polygamy we considered to be doctrine, so were later reversals. I guess you can say that God wanted the church to be a part of America. Therefore he instructed his later prophets to do away with polygamy.

That doesnt really cause any doctrinal conflicts, because God can instruct according to his own will. Therefore, whos to say what he wants other than the person receiving that instruction.

Obviously though, it causes many people to

4/21/2008 10:48:23 PM

^makes sense. if god wants his church to flourish, he commands accordingly.

no wonder they are #1 in the united states for the fastest growing church. gg romney and crew.

[Edited on April 21, 2008 at 10:54 PM. Reason : but the underage abusing flds. they got to go.]

4/21/2008 10:51:55 PM

What I don't understand is why Texas is going through all this hoopla with the mysterious 16yo girl abuse and instead just uses the fact that polygamy is illegal to arrest the lot of them and take custody of the kids?

I read they are doing DNA sampling of every one to figure out the family tree, should be interesting to see what turns up.

Also, I have a question, since each man needs to have 3 wives, and the wives have to be exclusive, how do you get enough women, because people breed 50-50 genderwise, and Im betting they don't abort any/enough men to make it 75-25?

4/22/2008 2:39:43 AM

Quote :

"how do you get enough women"

You get enough women indirectly: by eliminating some men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Boys_of_Polygamy

4/22/2008 3:00:43 AM

Quote :

"God is in his holy temple / Earthly thoughts be silent now. . . ."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iT37gZk3Mrk&feature=related

4/22/2008 6:34:06 AM

How do they decide which boys can stay, and when they start taking wives? I guess the "prophet" picks, or that stand in for Warren Jeffs now? How do they divvy up wives? Do the 50 year olds get first pick?

4/22/2008 6:57:22 AM

^ well that's the secret, isn't it?

the only one who can answer those questions are people who are inside the ranch or were once inside it but have been kicked out or left on their own.

i guess the FALSE prophet decides who stays and who goes. if he likes someone, he will let his children stay perhaps. but if he doesn't get along with someone, he might tell him to kick his kids out. also, if he sees good mormon faith in a kid (i.e., a propensity to continue the abuse), he will make him one of his favourites. if he sees a rebellious streak in a kid, he might have him removed.

same thing for the wives. he probably assigns the choicest women to his close friends and those who are in his good books (so in essence, he decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell... wow, is he a prophet or is he god? ). those not in his good books, relative strangers to him, and those he doesn't like probably get to pick at the end, when the choice is limited and only old unattractive women are left, or perhaps even not enough women are left to make the required 3 per man.

Quote :

"What I don't understand is why Texas is going through all this hoopla with the mysterious 16yo girl abuse and instead just uses the fact that polygamy is illegal to arrest the lot of them and take custody of the kids?"

One of the mysteries of the US.

4/22/2008 7:30:06 AM

Quote :

"Just wanted to clarify, that mormons believe in a living prophet. So, while joseph smiths revelations on polygamy we considered to be doctrine, so were later reversals. I guess you can say that God wanted the church to be a part of America. Therefore he instructed his later prophets to do away with polygamy. That doesnt really cause any doctrinal conflicts, because God can instruct according to his own will. Therefore, whos to say what he wants other than the person receiving that instruction. Obviously though, it causes many people to "

I really don't understand how any mormon could say this with a straight face.

4/22/2008 10:19:33 AM

Quote :

"My point was that the mainstream Mormon church said that polygamy was OK (see Joseph Smith and Brigham Young). It was when the Mormon church changed it's doctrine, that these splinter groups broke away. It is noteworthy that at the time LDS's president did away with polygamy is a part of the Mormon doctrine, Utah's efforts to gain statehood had been unsuccessful due to anti-polygamy sentiment in the rest of the country. After the official discontinuance of polygamy in 1890, Utah was granted statehood in in 1896. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints.2C_and_Mormon_fundamentalists In other words, FLDS and other splinter groups may be loonies, but they are correct in that they are more in line with Mormon doctrine circa mid-1800s than the Mormon church itself. LDS, of course, rejects categorizing these groups as "Mormon" in anyway, as they are not in keeping with contemporary LDS doctrine."

I think the reason for that is the Church of Latter Day Saints has been trying for a long time now to get recognition as a mainstream religion that is a denomination of Christianity, which is rejected by many people that see them as heretical and as a cult. Most people (except some hard bitten Protestants) accept Catholics as Christians, most accept all the Protestant denominations as Christians, likewise the Orthodox, not true for Mormons. So some of their moves and change in doctrine is toward removing the more controversial parts of their doctrine that are rejected by the country at large to make themselves more acceptable. It wouldn't surprise me if their prophet in the future stated he had a revelation from God that there was no such thing as the gold plates being presented to Joseph Smith.


I haven't been following this story but have caught snippets. So was the call a hoax?

And as far as Utah and polygamy, surprise!, it has become an issue in a Republican congressional primary there.

http://www.politics1.com/blog-0408a.htm#0417

Quote :

"The definition of marriage is becoming an issue in the Utah CD-3 congressional primary -- and the dispute isn't even centered around same-sex marriage. Congressman Chris Cannon (R) -- facing an aggressive primary challenge from former Juab County Prosecutor David Leavitt, former gubernatorial chief of staff Jason Chaffetz and two others -- expressed some support for radical Mormon polygamists. Cannon said the state should not prosecute polygamists for bigamy solely because they engage in consensual plural marriage. Further, Cannon said anti-polygamy laws were largely analogous to the anti-sodomy laws already declared unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court. Here is how Cannon explained it to the Salt Lake Tribune: There are "lots of women who choose to be in polygamous relationships and who are very articulate about the benefits they get. I don't think it's the place of society to prosecute people who choose to cohabitate responsibly and are responsible for their children as opposed to men who are licentious or women who are licentious who are producing children that don't have place or context or male authority in their lives." Cannon said his views also extended to same sex couples -- that the relationships should not be criminal, but the relationships do not get government recognition either. Leavitt told KNRS radio that the state must aggressively prosecute polygamists "or it will pave the road to same-sex marriage ... If we allow two consenting women and a consenting man to redefine what our society says is marriage, then we have opened the door for the redefinition of marriage for same-gender marriage. This is a broader scope than just polygamy." Leavitt lost for re-election by 22 votes in 2002, in what was largely viewed as a backlash against his successful bigamy prosecution of a vocal polygamist in 2000. "

[Edited on April 22, 2008 at 10:49 AM. Reason : /]

4/22/2008 10:31:47 AM

Quote :

"What I don't understand is why Texas is going through all this hoopla with the mysterious 16yo girl abuse and instead just uses the fact that polygamy is illegal to arrest the lot of them and take custody of the kids?"

My guess would be that there's only one legal marriage listed, and no one in recent history has gone to jail for adultery.

4/22/2008 12:14:14 PM

Quote :

"Just wanted to clarify, that mormons believe in a living prophet. So, while joseph smiths revelations on polygamy we considered to be doctrine, so were later reversals. I guess you can say that God wanted the church to be a part of America. Therefore he instructed his later prophets to do away with polygamy. That doesnt really cause any doctrinal conflicts, because God can instruct according to his own will. Therefore, whos to say what he wants other than the person receiving that instruction. Obviously though, it causes many people to"

I find it funny that whenever the FLDS are brought up, lds rally round the prophet to claim that a difference between themselves and the fundies.

Also, polygamy is an everlasting covenant. Right now it is "suspended" in the here and now, but is continued in the Celestial Kingdom. Don't believe me, ask you bishop. Also ask him why widowers are allowed to be sealed to their new wives, but widows aren't (assuming the previous marriage was a temple marriage).

Just like the Blacks and the priesthood. They weren't supposed to get that until the millenium, but in 1978 when the political pressure was getting too hot to handle the LDS church suddenly had a revelation.

Quote :

"What I don't understand is why Texas is going through all this hoopla with the mysterious 16yo girl abuse and instead just uses the fact that polygamy is illegal to arrest the lot of them and take custody of the kids?"

because they aren't legally married, they are spiritually married. So there is no polygamy. One of the favorite things these groups like to do is to file for welfare for the second, third, etc wives on the claim that they are single unwed mothers. Thus bilking the system.

[Edited on April 22, 2008 at 12:50 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on April 22, 2008 at 12:57 PM. Reason : .]

4/22/2008 12:48:55 PM

Watching the special on Dr. Phil.

4/22/2008 6:20:28 PM