Quote :

"I thought Ra's Al Ghul character was great. Very different from the cartoon, but still faithful in many ways."

Not just very different from the cartoon, very different from many things in his whole history. I didnt think his character was great. I thought it was a weak manipulation to fit this cinematic experience. Its like making a movie about Superman that didnt grow up in Smallville.

6/16/2005 11:53:00 PM

Quote :

"The love interest seemed hastily thrown in, I found the comic relief poorly handled, and Qui-Gon Ducard as the main bad dude was senseless."

Hastily thrown in? First of all, she was there at the beginning of the film, in the middle and at the end. Secondly, they didn't really develop it into a full blown romance. Essentially they were really close friends where a relationship could have potentially occured, but never did. They just explored the struggle and tension that was their friendship and the realization that they loved each other but understood and accepted that nothing could come of it.

Now the relationship between Holmes and her boss was poorly executed. They kissed, then he dies, and she's kinda sad, and then you totally forget about him all together. But it wasn't an important part of the movie anyway.

Liam Neison as Ra's Al Ghul made sense as a modern day realistic movie explanation. I think a Lazarus Pit is a bit far fetched for a movie that gives off a serious tone such as this. The deception of "who really was Ra's Al Ghul? i thought i killed him?!" incorporated the immortality aspect of the character. It's sorta like the English concept where if you write some super popular story or something, then you're never really dead or forgotten because you've left your legacy behind with your work. By convincing other people that some bald asian dude is really Ra's and then recruiting more bald asian dudes, the spirit and legacy of Ra's Al Ghul will live on forever.


Originally I didn't think the villains were going to work as this being the first movie, but I felt like it worked perfectly. Scarecrow wasn't a villain, he was a minion/henchman/lackey.

I liked how they made the League of Shadows the conspiracy group that controls the world. Makes you wonder if they went so far as to have Bruce's parents killed to stop their influence from spreading, when in actuality the opposite happened.

The whole idea of the idealist was displayed and executed very well.

The best scene of the movie was when Bruce told everyone to get the fuck outta his house. It was classic. If any movie scene defines Christain Bale, it is that one.

Why didn't the blue flower have a name? It just sounded weird hearing "Crane made the drug from the blue flower of our mountain habitat...."

It's not the comic, but it's a damn good movie and I thought it presented Batman very well. Much better than Star Wars (wasn't sure that i would say that )

[Edited on June 17, 2005 at 1:33 AM. Reason : sa]

6/17/2005 1:31:48 AM

I didn't think they did a bad job with Raa's Alghul, although I will confess that I wish they had pronounced his name correctly at least once. But as for Talia and the Lazarus Pits and immortality jazz, I guess that might've taken a little too long to introduce satisfactorily, ie, they could have at least mentioned it but then people not well versed in the Batman universe would miss out on what the hell they're talking about.

I thought Baile did an excellent job as Bruce/Batman, and although I kept thinking up Qui Gon jokes and puns in my head as the movie went along I also liked Liam Neeson's performance. I think Michael Caine was dead-on as Alfred, and I also liked Morgan Freeman's character as well. btw, in the comics, did Lucious Fox ever find out that Bruce was Batman? Don't know the actor's name, but Jim Gordon was really cool also. I liked Scare Crow, but I kinda wished they would've focused more on Scare Crow and less on Dr. Crane. Finally, while I thought Katie Holmes did a good job and I still find her to be very fuckable, her character didn't really strike me as all that important, she was more or less just there taking up oxygen.

I see what you guys were saying about the fight scenes, but it wasn't too hard to keep track of who was pwning who. And that car chase was pretty bloody awesome.

One last question. I know that Bruce did go around the world and study all sorts of things like martial arts, detective work, escape artistry, and all that stuff, but did he really become a criminal for a while to get inside the criminal mind? Batman doesn't really strike me as a thief or a crook. I figured he just took a bunch of criminal psychology courses or something.

Quote :

"The best scene of the movie was when Bruce told everyone to get the fuck outta his house. It was classic. If any movie scene defines Christain Bale, it is that one."

Yeah that was pretty pimp of him. But considering that he has to keep up his perky, friendly playboy persona so as to keep Bruce Wayne and Batman safely seperate in the minds of Gothamites, wasn't it possible that he could've just, oh I dunno, somehow started a fire and been like "omfgwtfmate fire oh noes everybody gtfo!!1" It just felt very forced and artificial on his part to tell people that he thought they were all assholes and that they needed to leave him alone (though, in a way, I suppose it was).

[Edited on June 17, 2005 at 1:41 AM. Reason : asdf]

6/17/2005 1:36:57 AM

he surrounded himself with criminals

who stole wayne enterprises stuff

thus really only stealing his own stuff


so not really a criminal

6/17/2005 1:39:16 AM

Quote :

"That's still not Ra's al-Ghul. Ra's is a nearly immortal eco-terrorist of indeterminate ethnicity, not a European captain of a ninja little league team who's obsessed with fear and murder."

Like I said above, Ra's immoratality in the film was a sort of Wizard of Oz trick.

They implied the ecoterrorist aspect by making the league of shadows a secret organization that control everyday aspects of society.

The whole fear thing had to do with fear = control. By understanding and confronting fear they can control it and therefore gain power. That's how the organization is run. That's how they control the world. That's how they controlled Gotham and caused the depression. When that failed they tried to fix it by all this scarecrow and airborne fear chemicals in the atmosphere scheme. They fucked up at least once by trying to recruit Bruce (maybe twice if they had the Waynes murdered).

I would suggest you see the movie again Frosh and pay attention










oh and where the crap did scarecrow get a horse from?

[Edited on June 17, 2005 at 1:43 AM. Reason : 123]

6/17/2005 1:41:16 AM

Quote :

"he surrounded himself with criminals who stole wayne enterprises stuff thus really only stealing his own stuff so not really a criminal"

Good point, but don't forget that he did also confess to stealing food in order to keep from starving.

6/17/2005 1:42:55 AM

um he yoinked the horse from the Gotham police people I'm sure, since you see them with horses

6/17/2005 6:56:48 AM

i thought it was really cool when Carmine Falcone was like "you're bruce wayne, you'd have to go 1000 miles from here to find anyone that didn't know that name", so that was what he did.

6/17/2005 6:57:14 AM

CharlieEFH said:

Quote :

"Like I said above, Ra's immoratality in the film was a sort of Wizard of Oz trick. They implied the ecoterrorist aspect by making the league of shadows a secret organization that control everyday aspects of society. The whole fear thing had to do with fear = control. By understanding and confronting fear they can control it and therefore gain power. That's how the organization is run. That's how they control the world. That's how they controlled Gotham and caused the depression. When that failed they tried to fix it by all this scarecrow and airborne fear chemicals in the atmosphere scheme. They fucked up at least once by trying to recruit Bruce (maybe twice if they had the Waynes murdered). I would suggest you see the movie again Frosh and pay attention"

I suggest you read the fucking comics. Ra's al-Ghul is not the head of some vast conspiracy, he lives quite apart from society. He's the head of the League of Assassins, but his aim is not control—it's wiping humanity from the face of the Earth.

Regardless of what excuses you want to make for the film's piss-poor Ra's, Ra's al-Ghul is still an extremely poor choice for a first conflict. Like I said before, this film should've focused on more mundane crime. I thought Ra's al-Ghul would be a much more minor element and that the story would focus on Carmine Falcone, which would've been excellent. Instead, we get this over-the-top bullshit with an absolutely embarrassing "hint" at the Joker tacked onto the end. No, thank you.

6/17/2005 7:46:47 AM

the "hint" at the end paves the way for a sequel. it can't lead into the first batman, because in that one it was the joker that killed his parents.

6/17/2005 8:31:01 AM

Quote :

"Regardless of what excuses you want to make for the film's piss-poor Ra's, Ra's al-Ghul is still an extremely poor choice for a first conflict. Like I said before, this film should've focused on more mundane crime. I thought Ra's al-Ghul would be a much more minor element and that the story would focus on Carmine Falcone, which would've been excellent."

Ding ding ding! That would have been awesome. Damn you Frank Miller for making Year One so good.

6/17/2005 8:56:05 AM

frosh you are a bit too critical, I think. Do you have to measure up a movie based upon the comic books? I encounter ramparting fanboys all the time but they all line up in unison at least respecting this movie. You already dismissed it.

Dont play dumb - the reason fights break out between TWW vs. froshkiller is that you continually define your posts as on a higher intellectual than others. Not to mention the snotty factor, but you need to realize you are among people of the same ilk, sans the same arrogance. We ain't stupid your highness

Ok, so back to batman - we realize its DC's intellectual property and all but I always thought that the best thing about comic books was their perpetual movement of characters -- ya know, constant revision and adaptation.

I mean, a movie like this is not to pay homage to the books by themselves, but rather adapt ideas from the books to make a quality product for mainstream movie audiences. 85% of the acting general audience has no relation to the books and could care less. And that film oozes quality and any layman or casual fan can see that.

However the fight scenes are zoomed in too much. I will say that.

[Edited on June 17, 2005 at 12:25 PM. Reason : p00pmobile]

[Edited on June 17, 2005 at 12:37 PM. Reason : p00pmobile]

6/17/2005 12:22:07 PM

i also agree about the fight scenes being too zoomed in.

and i agree about the target audiences as well

6/17/2005 12:26:29 PM

Quote :

"I suggest you read the fucking comics."

If I want to read the comic books...I'll buy a comic book

If I want to see a movie...I'll go to a movie theatre

It's your own fault you walked into a movie theatre and mistaked a film for a comic book

6/17/2005 12:43:11 PM

I don't care if they change some things. But this was no Batman movie. There are so many misappropriated elements at work in this movie that I...I mean, Jesus fucking Christ, anyone presumptuous enough to call his movie Batman Begins should at least adhere to certain major elements of the origin story. For instance:

• Bruce Wayne studied physical sciences, forensic investigation, psychology, and other disciplines—not just martial arts—all while honing his body and mind to near perfection, and he did this over a period of 18 years, not just seven.
  
• His decision to become the bat was influenced by a childhood fall into the cave beneath the manor, the movie did that pretty well, but he finally decided on that symbol when a bat came crashing through a window in his father's study, not because Ra's al-Ghul dosed him with some kind of fucking drug.
  
• Lucius Fox was never complicit in supplying Wayne with the equipment he needed to become Batman. Lucius Fox never knew and never had anything to do with that kind of stuff anyway.
  
• Thomas and Martha Wayne were murdered as they left a showing of a Zorro movie (usually referred to as The Mark of Zorro), not the opera. This may seem like a nitpick, but Bruce Wayne's Batman identity was strongly influenced by the character of Zorro.
  

6/17/2005 12:44:52 PM

That's all well and good but the last time I checked- that formula wasn't working very well. In fact after batman returns, the franchise turned into gigantic donkey dick. Speaking strictly on the big screen of course, which is the only relative comparison. If comic book nuts can't handle an adaptation on the screen just don't go -- but don't cry foul play.

6/17/2005 12:48:40 PM

I don't think Frosh is saying the movie was poorly done, he just has a different vision for the Batman universe than the director does ....expectations suck.

[Edited on June 17, 2005 at 12:52 PM. Reason : asdf]

6/17/2005 12:51:02 PM

In recent years it's been demonstrated over and over that it is possible to make a successful screen adaptation of a comic license. Look at how fucking awesome X-Men, Spider-Man, and their sequels have been. There is no fucking excuse for failing to faithfully translate a franchise of Batman's stature. LOL IT'S A MOVIE doesn't fucking cut it.

You guys keep riding the hype, but a year from now, see how many of you buy the DVD. It's a shitty product, and by and by that's how opinion is going to shift.

6/17/2005 12:52:56 PM

Fanboy fight!

6/17/2005 1:00:44 PM

nah I really think you are wrong. There really has been a raping of the comic book industry lately imo.

The hulk, daredevil, elektra, fantastic 4, judge dredd, spawn, mystery men, and all punishers eat crap. The original spider-man and x-men were only decent at best -- if you play them over again they lose their suprise/fun factor rather quickly. The sequels were awesome though. This is again, all based on opinion.

The point im trying to make is that for people who don't read comic books, which again, is like 85% of these movies' audiences, the movie should represent a compelling story in which might prompt the audience to either pickup the comic, or realize that the comics had alot of depth to the respective story.

I think direct ports of the comic book can tied down in fanboy expectations and bottleneck creativity. I think Batman Begins is a success at revising the legend to fit the modern day. And more importantly, I think it does it wo/ being cheeky and/or too serious, and kicking ass in spades. I've collected impressions from everybody I know and people on the net and its a sensation.

I admit I can fall for the hype, but I honestly am riding that pine on post-viewing. I honestly thought it was going to suck before I saw it.

[Edited on June 17, 2005 at 1:03 PM. Reason : -]

6/17/2005 1:01:29 PM

i don't give a good god damn about comic books, batman, or any of that other shit

i really liked the movie

now you faggots can continue arguing about shit that doesn't matter

6/17/2005 1:05:02 PM

I loved the way they talked about being able to explain injuries, and how it ties in the batcave getting revamped after wayne manor burns down, and all the little things that make it very beleivable.

6/17/2005 1:06:45 PM

I agree, if they had been watching Zorro instead of some opera it would have been so much better.

6/17/2005 1:09:48 PM

yeah ok rangelife, tell us how it is

6/17/2005 1:11:16 PM

i thought the movie was better than x2, and probably better the spidey 2 (which was great), but i'd have to see it again before deciding that one for sure.

6/17/2005 1:11:36 PM

btw kainen1

i am a member of the 85%

you hit the nail right on the head

6/17/2005 1:12:01 PM

now that I think of it, Baile did a good job of seperating Batman and Bruce Wayne as two seperate individuals. that's one thing i always missed in other Batman movies was the feeling that Bruce Wayne and Batman are two different people.

6/17/2005 1:19:26 PM

Who the fuck is Baile?

6/17/2005 1:21:03 PM

Quote :

"Bruce Wayne studied physical sciences, forensic investigation, psychology, and other disciplines—not just martial arts—all while honing his body and mind to near perfection, and he did this over a period of 18 years, not just seven."

The movie was already 2 hours, how much longer did you want it to be? Or would you have preferred a batman studies montage?

Quote :

"His decision to become the bat was influenced by a childhood fall into the cave beneath the manor, the movie did that pretty well, but he finally decided on that symbol when a bat came crashing through a window in his father's study, not because Ra's al-Ghul dosed him with some kind of fucking drug."

Er... it wasn't because Ra's drugged him in this movie either. Were you paying attention at all during the movie? He's working in the study and he hears a noise out in the hall way, goes out to see a bat fluttering arround. That gives him the idea for a bat, and then Alfred's comment on them nesting somewhere on the grounds leads him to the cave.

Quote :

"Lucius Fox was never complicit in supplying Wayne with the equipment he needed to become Batman. Lucius Fox never knew and never had anything to do with that kind of stuff anyway."

Having not read the early comics, how did he get his equipment then? Did he develop it all by himself? If so, see point 1 above.

Quote :

"Thomas and Martha Wayne were murdered as they left a showing of a Zorro movie (usually referred to as The Mark of Zorro), not the opera. This may seem like a nitpick, but Bruce Wayne's Batman identity was strongly influenced by the character of Zorro."

And unless they had shown young bruce watching zorro through the begining scenes as well, it would have made no sense to have them watching Zorro.

6/17/2005 1:21:09 PM

Quote :

"That's all well and good but the last time I checked- that formula wasn't working very well"

The last 2 Batman films (not including Batman Begins) didnt follow any "formula" and thats only part of the reason they sucked ass. Bane wasn't a mindless, Venom-pumped up thug in the comic books where he was in the movie. If they adhered to the "formula" a bit more, the character would have been way more compelling.

6/17/2005 1:24:57 PM

wanaflap said:

Quote :

"now that I think of it, Baile did a good job of seperating Batman and Bruce Wayne as two seperate individuals. that's one thing i always missed in other Batman movies was the feeling that Bruce Wayne and Batman are two different people."

But Batman and Bruce Wayne aren't two different people. Hell, the movie at least got that right, when that godawful Rachel character said to Bruce that his face was the real mask.

6/17/2005 1:31:35 PM

yeah, Bruce Wayne isn't Bruce Wayne dressed up as Batman

Bruce Wayne is Batman

Bruce Wayne is the facade

6/17/2005 1:34:51 PM

see from reading the comics, i always got the impression that the social/business Bruce Wayne personality was a different person than what Bruce Wayne actually is, and that the "real Bruce Wayne" is Batman.

So to me, they are kind of two different people. At least that's how I always viewed the comics.

6/17/2005 1:52:46 PM

I think you guys are in a semantics tangle.

Bruce Wayne/Batman = mentally speaking are diff people, phys. speaking are same.

[Edited on June 17, 2005 at 1:55 PM. Reason : I AM BATMAN]

6/17/2005 1:55:03 PM

FroshKiller already said it best:

Quote :

"But Batman and Bruce Wayne aren't two different people. Hell, the movie at least got that right, when that godawful Rachel character said to Bruce that his face was the real mask."

that's really the only way to look at it

6/17/2005 1:58:04 PM

6/17/2005 2:26:33 PM

I heard that there may be two more batman movies coming out, one based on Joker and the other on Two-Face since this movie is going to do so well...any truth to that? I want to say that it's an idiotic assumption, but when movies make money, sequels always pop out.

...For those of you that didn't like how Ra's was done, would you be happier if he did pop up in a sequel, to show his "timeless/immortal" part of him? It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he escaped out of the monorail thingy. If you can't find the body, you can't say he's dead.

6/17/2005 2:50:52 PM

it'd be cool if he showed up, but not as the main villain that Batman fights

if he became like a Blofeld character from the James Bond movies, that would be cool

6/17/2005 3:02:08 PM

***SPOLIER*** (not that it matters at this point)

the ending of this movie left the door wide open for the obvious joker sequel. i would like to see them make more movies in the series if they could keep it on par with this one.

6/17/2005 3:23:05 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if they made two more movies, but I think it would do well enough with just one sequel. Someone said that if the new Superman does well, they'll do a Batman/Superman movie, and if so, that could be considered the third one. That would be pretty cool.

I liked this movie. It was almost too dark for me, and I could definitely see the director's mark on it. But I like how realistic they were in the reasoning behind things (even the whole buying 10k ears to avoid suspicion). I haven't read the comics, so won't go into all that. But I don't think he chose to be a bat until after his training/drugging by Ra's al-Ghul, but more like when he entered the bat cave and stood up to all of the bats flying around him.

I don't think I'll compare this with other comic book movies. The Punisher comes close in style/maturity level , but other than that, this movie is too different. I didn't feel like I had watched a 'comic book' movie.

6/17/2005 3:48:08 PM

Quote :

"The original spider-man and x-men were only decent at best -- if you play them over again they lose their suprise/fun factor rather quickly."

I totally disagree with this. I love the first X-Men movie. Sabertooth sucked, but oh well. The first Spider-Man movie was also far above decent, though I prefer the X-Men movies (even though read more Spider-man comics).

And if I was a serious Batman fan, I might agree with Frosh. I do think the "OMF they're gonna destroy the world" thing was a little silly at times. I loved Scarecrow, though.

6/17/2005 4:26:15 PM

frosh is just being a bit too much of a fanboy, seems to me

from this movie, you could think of the batman as a bat-ish take on a ninja instead of a bat-ish take on Zorro

it's just a great retelling of a great series, most of your problems are the same experienced by the Hitchhiker's Guide fanboy crew - it's not EXACTLY the way you WANT it to be

as far as the movie, thought it was awesome

fight scenes were choppy but didn't detract from the movie a whole lot

a few pet peeves were that i wanted crane to be more ickabod-looking and that Zsaz and Falcone didn't seem to be anything overly special, but at least they left them open to recovery in sequels

also i kept thinking please don't let that kid be Tim Drake, PLEASE

6/17/2005 4:45:12 PM

There's no way that kid is Tim Drake. He's clearly Jason Todd.

6/17/2005 5:22:29 PM

Could be worse. He could've been Dick Grayson.

6/17/2005 5:26:31 PM

He's actually RA'S AL GHUL JUNIOR!!!

I picked up Year One (and The Long Halloween) today cuz the movie got me in a Batman kind of mood. And then maybe I will better understand Froshkiller's rabid fanboyism.

6/17/2005 5:59:05 PM

I wonder if Frosh hates the first Batman because Joker killed Bruce's parents.

It wasn't in the comic books!!! OMG, worst comic book adaptation evar!

6/17/2005 6:00:32 PM

^^ Attaboy. You wont be disappointed. Year One is good.

Quote :

"Sabertooth sucked, but oh well."

Yea he did. They almost pulled a Bane on Sabretooth. Hes a damn funny character.

[Edited on June 17, 2005 at 6:02 PM. Reason : ^]

6/17/2005 6:02:13 PM

I'd imagine he has serious beef with it, yeah.

NPR played an old Bob Kane interview where he said he was in a gang called the Crusading Zorros (Zorroes?). Their advantage was that, unlike the other gangs, they wouldn't receive the ass beatings when they were out of costume cuz nobody knew who they were. Pretty interesting.

6/17/2005 6:02:31 PM

-ZiP!-

[Edited on June 17, 2005 at 6:17 PM. Reason : ]

6/17/2005 6:02:51 PM

christian bale is hot - i've had a crush on him since Empire of the Sun

6/17/2005 6:12:05 PM