Of course, when you only consider an incredibly small fraction of the market, it's going to sound moronic.

9/19/2012 11:00:33 PM

Oh come on guise the only REAL jobs that matter are in engineering/tech

9/19/2012 11:04:22 PM

Not only that, they must be the only jobs that exist

9/19/2012 11:06:27 PM

Engineers. Talk about over paid and generally useless.

9/19/2012 11:06:30 PM

hey now!

they have 'marketable skills'

what exactly they do all day might remain unseen, but their skills? well they're definitely marketable

[Edited on September 19, 2012 at 11:09 PM. Reason : asdf]

9/19/2012 11:09:11 PM

well, jaZon, how about you give us some examples of all those jobs out there that employers are having a hard time filling with qualified people? We've got to have some idea of the kind of jobs you are thinking of in order to decide if people can be easily trained to do the job with no more than a month's worth of training.

9/19/2012 11:18:21 PM

hint: how bout ones we keep shipping overseas?

9/19/2012 11:26:39 PM

really? we can't find qualified people, so we ship the job overseas? in what world does that make sense?

9/19/2012 11:33:00 PM

I'm going to pull a GxB because I'm working on something else AND I'm lazy. So here's a link:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/the-big-jobs-myth-american-workers-arent-ready-for-american-jobs/260169/

But seriously, google. Small businesses are terrible for this. Yes, they have more risk involved when hiring people, but they also have much more to gain by filling a vacant spot. As far as larger businesses are concerned, they just don't want to spend money at all. If the data from that article are to be taken seriously, even the positions they claim they can't find workers for can easily be filled (by the employers own admission), the employers just aren't willing to pay what the job is worth.

[Edited on September 19, 2012 at 11:33 PM. Reason : ]

9/19/2012 11:33:17 PM

^^so you don't think we're shipping manufacturing jobs oversees?

ok.

[Edited on September 19, 2012 at 11:38 PM. Reason : .]

9/19/2012 11:38:13 PM

Quote :

" Yes, they have more risk involved when hiring people, but they also have much more to gain by filling a vacant spot."

And they are also far more vulnerable to a huge potential sunk cost such as hiring on a new person they have to train for X amount of time who doesn't pan out and never produces any profitable results.

And thanks for the article, but that doesn't really go anywhere to show what jobs you think a person can be trained for in a month that have tons of open positions... It just says "there's lots of open jobs!" and then doesn't give many, if any, examples.

^ are we shipping manufacturing jobs overseas on account of not having skilled labour? seriously, dude.

[Edited on September 19, 2012 at 11:44 PM. Reason : ]

9/19/2012 11:43:50 PM

Link within the article:

http://www.themanufacturinginstitute.org/News-Articles/2011/10/17-2011-Skills-Gap.aspx

Quote :

"These unfilled jobs are mainly in the skilled production category – positions such as machinists, operators, craft workers, distributors and technicians,” said Emily DeRocco, president, The Manufacturing Institute. “Unfortunately, these jobs require the most training and are traditionally among the hardest manufacturing jobs to find existing talent to fill."

Yea, those jobs do require more training - how much more, they don't say, but if the idiots I know that do machine work can be trained in no time, (ANECDOTAL!!!!111) there should be plenty others that can as well.

And no, I don't think you can become a trained machinist in a month, but if you're applying for machining work, I would hope you know the basics anyway. Community college!

[Edited on September 20, 2012 at 12:29 AM. Reason : ]

9/20/2012 12:28:15 AM

Quote :

"Tanzarian, I was actually using bridgets words...."

You still didn't really answer my more general question, eyedrb. What do you mean when you say 'taking advantage of the government assistance'? Your words seem to imply only those engaged in some level of exploitation, but the context and tone seems to refer to nearly anyone and everyone.

----

^ I think that's mostly just a way to deflect when people come asking why a particular company isn't hiring or why they're moving jobs overseas.

9/20/2012 2:22:56 AM

More than a third of NC filers don't owe income tax

http://www.wral.com/news/state/nccapitol/story/11568427/

9/20/2012 10:23:43 AM

Quote :

"And they are also far more vulnerable to a huge potential sunk cost such as hiring on a new person they have to train for X amount of time who doesn't pan out and never produces any profitable results. And thanks for the article, but that doesn't really go anywhere to show what jobs you think a person can be trained for in a month that have tons of open positions... It just says "there's lots of open jobs!" and then doesn't give many, if any, examples."

Funny, the article makes a very similar argument about employer investment in employee's professional growth. It argued that we don't do it as much anymore, and we rely on formal education in its place.

I totally agree with you that the article lacked concrete data and studies to support its claims. Too many claims and too little evidence. The funny thing is, that's the exactly what it was arguing against. Its own methods don't exemplify using data, it's really about critical thinking. Like:

Quote :

"When firms were asked why they have difficulty hiring, 55% picked "lack of available applicants," but essentially the same percentage, 54%, said candidates are "looking for more pay than is offered" (many more than the 40% selecting lack of "hard" skill)."

What does this tell us? You could use this to argue in many different directions.

9/20/2012 11:42:49 AM

Quote :

"Engineers. Talk about over paid and generally useless."

good thing you never use computers. or the internet. or drive a car, or live in a building, take advantage of anything that was made possible by engineers. right? WAIT HOW DID YOU EVEN WRITE THAT POST?

Quote :

"hint: how bout ones we keep shipping overseas?"

that wasn't the point originally made. The point made was that there are all these jobs available and companies cannot find skilled people to fill them, so they should just train anyone who's unemployed to do them.

manufacturing jobs moving overseas is a different issue entirely.

Quote :

"And no, I don't think you can become a trained machinist in a month, but if you're applying for machining work, I would hope you know the basics anyway. Community college!"

ok, now you're thinking a little at least. States and municipalities are...wait for it... cutting funding to education--- when they should be doing just the opposite. It's not always the fault of some evil corporation. Now, education is just one piece of the puzzle. For those areas with tons of skilled manufacturing openings, what's the unemployment rate?

unemployment tends to be locally concentrated, especially in areas that don't have a diverse population of industries, so they're badly exposed if that sector experiences a slowdown. It's not feasible for families to just pick up and move either, especially in this day and age where families tend to have two incomes. If one loses his/her job, they risk swapping situations at best. If both lose their jobs, then the means to move to South Dakota (for example) where jobs are plentiful may not be there.

9/20/2012 12:19:21 PM

Quote :

" good thing you never use computers. or the internet. or drive a car, or live in a building, take advantage of anything that was made possible by engineers. right?"

i mean i wouldn't go as far as saying that they're worthless and do nothing, but a lot of engineers sure pat themselves on the back a lot for not getting a whole lot done each day. maybe they just lack the verbal/communication skills necessary to articulate what exactly it is they do on a daily basis, but i can't tell you the number of silicon valley tech/engineering people i've met that make their cush/high paying jobs sound like absolute jokes where there's no actual work being done. wow you make phone calls, crunch numbers, use computer programs, send emails, and sit in meetings all day? please, tell me more about how you're changing the world!

you could make the same argument for lots of industries, but the propensity for people to brag about how important their tech/engineering jobs on this board is pretty irritating.

Quote :

" that wasn't the point originally made. The point made was that there are all these jobs available and companies cannot find skilled people to fill them, so they should just train anyone who's unemployed to do them."

Okay, but my point is that there ARE industries that matter in this country (manufacturing/industry) that require specialized skills, but companies would rather ship them overseas for cheaper labor. No, they aren't as prestigious and high paying as tech/engineering jobs, but they're a huge part of our economic collapse, and they're valuable in their own right.

[Edited on September 20, 2012 at 12:35 PM. Reason : .]

9/20/2012 12:28:49 PM

Quote :

"Engineers. Talk about over paid and generally useless"

Jesus tap dancing Christ. You typed that message on the internet, making it possibly the most self defeating statement ever made.

Quote :

" 55% picked "lack of available applicants""

My group has been looking for people for a long time and we are having difficulty getting ppl past phone screen, much less technical interviews. At this point i'd like someone who could be useful with 3-6 months of training that I wasn't afraid was going to crack or have issues picking up the more complex concepts we work with.

Quote :

"looking for more pay than is offered"

People are also looking for more $$ than they are really worth. Lets say they make X now (or before their company did mass layoffs or what not) they are looking for make X-1.2X for a job they might be qualified to be trained to do. When at the same time you could probably get someone out of college to work for .6-.7X, still go though the same 6 months of training and not bring in any other 'my old job did it this way' baggage with them.

[Edited on September 20, 2012 at 12:36 PM. Reason : ing]

9/20/2012 12:34:54 PM

Quote :

"but my point is that there ARE industries that matter in this country (manufacturing/industry) that require specialized skills, but companies would rather ship them overseas for cheaper labor"

care to share anything that backs that statement up?

Skilled manufacturing still requires a requisite level of education-- not too far off from a technical degree and that's where the gap is.

This is a pretty good article that dives into it more-- someone actually posted this on TWW a while back.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/01/making-it-in-america/308844/2/

Quote :

"Tony explains that Maddie has a job for two reasons. First, when it comes to making fuel injectors, the company saves money and minimizes product damage by having both the precision and non-precision work done in the same place. Even if Mexican or Chinese workers could do Maddie’s job more cheaply, shipping fragile, half-finished parts to another country for processing would make no sense. Second, Maddie is cheaper than a machine. It would be easy to buy a robotic arm that could take injector bodies and caps from a tray and place them precisely in a laser welder. Yet Standard would have to invest about $100,000 on the arm and a conveyance machine to bring parts to the welder and send them on to the next station. As is common in factories, Standard invests only in machinery that will earn back its cost within two years. For Tony, it’s simple: Maddie makes less in two years than the machine would cost, so her job is safe—for now. If the robotic machines become a little cheaper, or if demand for fuel injectors goes up and Standard starts running three shifts, then investing in those robots might make sense. "

also:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-07-02/public-private-manufacuting/56005466/1


Everything I've been seeing indicates that high skilled manufacturing continues to grow in the US as the cheaper overseas labor

9/20/2012 1:20:08 PM

Quote :

"care to share anything that backs that statement up? "

off the top of my head?

The new span of the SF-Oakland bay bridge. Outsourced almost the entire operation to China (engineering, steel production, workers, etc)

http://www.npr.org/2011/09/16/140515737/california-turns-to-china-for-new-bay-bridge

yeah there are still some american workers who are contributing, but you get my point.

9/20/2012 1:28:17 PM

Quote :

"BobbyDigital: States and municipalities are...wait for it... cutting funding to education--- when they should be doing just the opposite. It's not always the fault of some evil corporation."

I was under the impression that they cut funding to education because they were running out of cash and because Republicans who took control in 2010 don't exactly prioritize publicly supported education.

In both cases, it seems like certain corporations would play a role. Many corporations participated in the ruin of the economy. Many corporations funded Republican campaigns. Many corporations try to pay as little taxes as possible while still complaining that their potential employees aren't properly educated/prepared--they want people to be competent and ready for different skilled jobs, but they don't want to pay taxes to see it happen.

9/20/2012 1:29:14 PM

^^no not really, i'm sure you can dig something up that cites the TREND. You've provided a population sample of one, which means they have a margin of error of +-100%.


^
That's a worthless argument unless you can show that the same companies that shirk taxes are the ones 'complaining'. Or are you seriously saying that ALL companies fall into that category of funding republicans who cut education, and now complain about the lack of skilled people? Hell, just show something that indicates that it's even a simple majority.

9/20/2012 1:34:42 PM

did you read the article? they've done the same thing in NYC for other construction projects

how is this difficult to understand?

9/20/2012 1:37:12 PM

ok, so from that we can conclude that all high skilled manufacturing jobs are moving overseas?

that's what you're saying?

9/20/2012 1:43:27 PM

^^^It wasn't an argument.

9/20/2012 1:44:10 PM

Quote :

"wow you make phone calls, crunch numbers, use computer programs, send emails, and sit in meetings all day? please, tell me more about how you're changing the world!"

Second sentence, I refer you to first sentence.

9/20/2012 1:45:54 PM

the difference being: i don't sit around on my high horse, bragging about how 'important' my industry is, or how much money I make.

who does that?

9/20/2012 1:50:57 PM

Quote :

"i mean i wouldn't go as far as saying that they're worthless and do nothing, but a lot of engineers sure pat themselves on the back a lot for not getting a whole lot done each day. maybe they just lack the verbal/communication skills necessary to articulate what exactly it is they do on a daily basis, but i can't tell you the number of silicon valley tech/engineering people i've met that make their cush/high paying jobs sound like absolute jokes where there's no actual work being done. wow you make phone calls, crunch numbers, use computer programs, send emails, and sit in meetings all day? please, tell me more about how you're changing the world!"

Actually its pretty easy to point out how engineers change the world. Specifically, you're not tilling a field with a wooden pitch axe right now are you? Furthermore, what maybe easy and boring for me, most definitely could be hard and near impossible for you.

9/20/2012 4:59:15 PM

Jethro Tull doesnt give a fuck about what you have to say.

9/20/2012 5:02:06 PM

Oh, is this the thread where everyone comes in and brags about how goddamn hard their job is? I thought that was just exclusive to the teacher's strike thread.


Well, um.....I make furniture, so all of you ass-clowns would be typing your little quips with sore feet, if it weren't for me. SO TAKE THAT!

9/20/2012 5:11:21 PM

You're an actual carpenter?

Or you run a CNC that makes particle-board shit or a supervisor that whips Asians (making furniture)?

9/20/2012 5:13:35 PM

I am not sure if JC interacted with particle board.

9/20/2012 5:20:19 PM

lawls

http://gawker.com/5944931/mitt-romney-dyed-his-face-brown-to-appeal-to-latino-voters





hahah and from the comments section:

Quote :

"He is the Juan Percent."

[Edited on September 20, 2012 at 8:13 PM. Reason : .]

9/20/2012 8:12:04 PM

Everyone is ignoring that most engineers don't actually make much money comparatively. Starting salaries are usually kinda decent, put generally pay plateaus for awhile after that. My office is probably half former engineers including PEs (some civil, mechanical, computer software, and I was industrial). Way more money in business.

9/20/2012 8:19:09 PM

Oops.

Didn't make the Jesus/carpenter connection.

I thought that user actually made furniture.

Lawl.

9/20/2012 8:31:09 PM

^^ thats the situation I'm in. Not much more room for pay upgrades in my position. If I tried to go more into the business side there's much more potential to move up in the company.

9/20/2012 10:23:42 PM

Quote :

"Way more money in business."

This is true, but one needs to be clear, what do you mean by that. Does getting a business degree groom you for the high-roller promotions? These days, you might have a better shot starting out as an engineer.

Often, companies will prowl the ranks of engineers and identify people to fast track. You know you're on this if you're an engineer and the company sent you to get an MBA. So this is as opposed to what? Getting a business degree then going for an MBA? You will be no better off. Law might be more viable, there might be some others.

Frankly, if you're aiming for business, an ivy league is probably the best first step. There's an army of deadbeat business majors. Engineering is more egalitarian. Plus, business can mean many things that I can't hope to tick off.

9/21/2012 8:38:07 AM

of course, I'm just pointing out that the argument that engineers are way overpaid and don't actually do much is not just dumb because engineers do stuff (which was argued about for a couple pages) but also because they generally aren't overpaid (which was being ignored).

9/21/2012 8:54:27 AM

I just want to point out one more thing before I finish my recent rant here, why is it that when conservatives say "the country is headed for imminent disaster" they don't ever finish that sentence with "because of Bush". Is it because it wasn't really Bush's (i.e. the party's) fault, but the government's fault?

9/21/2012 10:01:14 AM

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/romneys-release-taxes_652850.html

Quote :

"The Romney campaign is releasing Mitt and Ann Romney's 2011 tax return today. The campaign previews a few of the highlights here: In 2011, the Romneys paid $1,935,708 in taxes on $13,696,951 in mostly investment income. The Romneys’ effective tax rate for 2011 was 14.1%. The Romneys donated $4,020,772 to charity in 2011, amounting to nearly 30% of their income. The Romneys claimed a deduction for $2.25 million of those charitable contributions. The Romneys’ generous charitable donations in 2011 would have significantly reduced their tax obligation for the year. The Romneys thus limited their deduction of charitable contributions to conform to the Governor's statement in August, based upon the January estimate of income, that he paid at least 13% in income taxes in each of the last 10 years. Additionally, the Romney campaign is releasing a summary of 20 years of taxes, between 1990-2009, detailing their tax expenditures during those years: In each year during the entire 20-year period, the Romneys owed both state and federal income taxes. Over the entire 20-year period, the average annual effective federal tax rate was 20.20%. Over the entire 20-year period, the lowest annual effective federal personal tax rate was 13.66%. Over the entire 20-year period, the Romneys gave to charity an average of 13.45% of their adjusted gross income. Over the entire 20-year period, the total federal and state taxes owed plus the total charitable donations deducted represented 38.49% of total AGI. "

9/21/2012 2:11:49 PM

hmm

~14 % isn't all that much

I know a lot of people who pay 30-40%

they should probably just work harder though. totally their fault

[Edited on September 21, 2012 at 2:24 PM. Reason : .]

9/21/2012 2:22:55 PM

Looks like Bill Maher was right. The reason he didn't want to release his tax returns is because he didn't want people talking about how much money he was giving to his cult.

9/21/2012 2:23:57 PM

Or he doesn't want to disclose fraud from when he said he was living in his son's basement

9/21/2012 2:28:32 PM

I know it doesn't matter, but what's his net worth again? 250 mil?

Man, I was I wish rich.

9/21/2012 2:29:30 PM

So charitable donations don't mean much to you folks then?

Just curious, how much do you give yearly?

I'm guessing you assume it all went to Mormons.

Now of course I know charities don't repair roads, etc, but if my intent is specifically to feed people? Yeah, I know plenty of organizations here in the Charlotte area that id rather give money directly.

Or volunteer, yeah, amazingly this guy right here is a regular server at local soup kitchens.

Evil conservative right?

[Edited on September 21, 2012 at 2:36 PM. Reason : -]

9/21/2012 2:33:49 PM

I'm assuming that AT LEAST 10% of the total went to the Mormon church and then I'll assume that the remaining 3-4% went to either the Church or some scummy church-based conservative values organizations. I'm going with this assumption tentatively until more evidence is provided.

9/21/2012 2:36:05 PM

I'm blatantly ripping off Bill Maher, but to be clear, this is what a charitable organization looks like,



This is not,



[Edited on September 21, 2012 at 2:42 PM. Reason : :]

9/21/2012 2:42:04 PM

Exactly. This was discussed ad nauseum in another thread, but I don't think it's fair to consider all the money donated to a church as "charitable". I don't think that the vast majority of money donated to the mormon church is used to assist less fortunate people, which is what I consider "charity".

[Edited on September 21, 2012 at 2:53 PM. Reason : ]

9/21/2012 2:52:19 PM

And sorry,

but 'giving' away $4M to your church to reduce your tax liability isn't that selfless either

9/21/2012 3:03:53 PM

Of course I would like to see his donations itemized as well.

Just to be clear, you do realize the Mormon church does a huge amount of philanthropy work?

I understand the general hostility towards churches in TSB in general, but would should LSDs be treated any differently?

I think it's comical that Romney is considered strange for being a Mormon. As if other religions aren't strange.

9/21/2012 3:05:03 PM