My only beef with class balance is that Blizzard simply doesn't even attempt to try to balance classes for PVP. Their main goal seems to be make each class fun to play in PVE with a multitude of viable specs. They are actually doing a good job of that, the problem is that in the process of making certain classes better at things that was never really in their class description, they are making other classes feel sort of useless in comparison.

Druids don't wanna be heal bots, ok we'll give you all these badass feral abilities.

Ditto for paladin's, so we'll give you all these random damage abilities (Hammer of Wrath and Eye for an Eye , wtf Blizz? ).

I think we all know the up and down's warriors have gone through.

Hunter's were sick of just auto-shot and go make a sandwich, ok so we'll make your pets badass and give you all these sick CC abilities while upping your DPS and survivability to that of a demi-god (ok, so I fucking hate hunters).

Warlocks were just a jumbled fucking mess of a class that Blizzard really had no idea what to do with, so they just kept on tacking on abilities to them to the point that a well geared warlock with the proper spec is absolutely 100% unbeatable in any sort of 1v1 situation with any class.

Now with this patch, priests will be able to be master healers , while having more survivability than any cloth/leather (possibily even mail) wearer , and be able to dish out respectable damage .

Again, this is all well and good for PVE and I'm sure will make the class a lot more fun to play, but it once more totally throws off PVP balance. Who knows, maybe they are just gearing up for the expansion. In the past, Blizzard games have never been totally balanced until the first expansion release so perhaps WoW will follow suit. All I know is that kids need to stop whining about X class being boring to play and just go reroll instead of demanding that Blizzard make their class better.

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 12:20 PM. Reason : that was too hard too read.]

2/24/2006 12:14:07 PM

i agree with almost everything you said. especially the breakdowns of the individual classes.
for the most part spot on (especially the part about making classes fun instead of balanced)

2/24/2006 12:19:53 PM

Quote :

"= +10% Spell Crit "

I just want to point out that from an offensive point of view, this isn't really that bad. Priests only crit for 1.5x spell damage as opposed to Warlocks and other classes that can spec up to 2x.

Basically, I won't be hitting anyone with any 2k Mind Blasts

Quote :

"+25% HoT from Melee Damage"

Also isn't that big of a deal since Ambush + Backstab = 5% health left. Sure we've got a decent HOT on us, but we're dead the next time a rogue gets 30 energy for a Eviscerate.

2/24/2006 12:38:10 PM

Quote :

"Sorry. Warriors are meant to either A) get the shit kicked out of them or B) do damage. Much in the same way that priests are meant to A) heal or B) do damage. With both classes being pretty mediocre at B. But end of the day a protection spec warrior is much more apt at killing things than a holy spec priest, because warriors get these big bad weapons so they can do damage while being protection spec and priests get +healing."

since when are priests meant to kill anything? If they want to kill something they DO get a weapon...its called shadow spec. How many groups want a DPS preist? none, they want a holy priest, thats what the class is supposed to do.

2/24/2006 12:57:16 PM

The spell crit will mainly be useful for keeping warriors at 125% armor 100% of the time.

2/24/2006 12:57:49 PM

Quote :

" mage burst *DPS* is obviously much higher. who in their right mind is goint to question that? especially with TOEP and ZHC. i said warlock's are doing as much DAMAGE. they are doing much more damage over the time they are alive that mages. their damage/lifespan ratio is way off from that of a mage. and have much more annoying and powerful CC (seduction, death coil, fear) "

No. You're an idiot and still wrong. learn 2 add the math please.

No warlock is going sit there and spam DoTS on mobs in any PvE instance because the dots multiplied by the number of warlocks hits off other debuffs. In PvP, you could spec to be a damage beast with dots only, but you wouldn't out damage an excellent mage because burst damage is key for group PvP confrontations and Mages dominate burst damage. In guild vs guild encounters, you won't be able to DoT more then a couple of targets before they get eliminated. You can score a lot of Killing Blows and assists because the dots tick hard, but your overall damage wouldn't be greater then a mages burst.

Secondly best burst damage build for a warlock I've tried would be DS/Emb which net me 600 base searing pains and 1200 searing pain crits (for a spell that has a high crit rate). When I did it, I didn't have high survivability in any 1v1 encounter without burning a shard on an instant summon to run away. That increased dependance on shards is a major drawback to Warlock DPS builds because vs good teams you're going to burn through a shard bag really quickly.

Seriously. stfu. If anything, Warlocks need a buff to the entire demonlogy tree which still contains talents that aren't very useful at lvl 60.

2/24/2006 1:12:09 PM

whatever, we're still not talking about the same thing here i guess. i know what im talking about and you know what youre talking about. but i know what goes on in the field in pvp.

so im not going to "stfu"

its pretty accepted by the general population that warlocks are one of the most overpowered classes right now. like he said earlier:

Quote :

"a well geared warlock with the proper spec is absolutely 100% unbeatable in any sort of 1v1 situation with any class. "

i wouldnt say 100% unbeatable but they should be able to easily beat every class if they are smart and well geared.

pvp a little more. i could careless about pve or a classes role in PVE. thats just sleepwakin time for me.

PS maybe you havent played a warlock in awhile since they were broken then looking at your numbers. i just got critted by ~1400, ~1700, and ~1900 by a few different warlocks in wsg.

warlocks are easily twice as hard to kills than mages as well. not sure why you didnt feel you had survivability. easily hte best survivability of all the casters

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 1:27 PM. Reason : ]

2/24/2006 1:20:00 PM

^^youre totally awesomer and cooler than him

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 1:20 PM. Reason : *]

2/24/2006 1:20:03 PM

in this thread, you're all losers

2/24/2006 1:21:29 PM

pretty much

2/24/2006 1:30:16 PM

Quote :

"since when are priests meant to kill anything? If they want to kill something they DO get a weapon...its called shadow spec."

...

You're a moron. There is a difference between a weapon and an entire spec.

See, if you're a protection warrior the fact that you lose most of your offensive capabilities is offset by the fact you have a very good weapon. You still do decent damage, granted not nearly as much, but you're far from worthless.

If you're a holy priest the fact that you lose most of your offensive capabilities is offset by the fact that you... oh wait. It's not offset at all. You just don't have any.

It's not like we're bitching about not being able to rape things and run through them with ease, but with the exception of like two spells there are absolutely no holy damage spells (which are unuseable) and really only about two Shadow damage spells when you're holy spec.

It's just about completely impossible to do anything other than raid when you're holy spec. You can't farm anything because it takes a year and a half to kill the mob.

Quote :

"How many groups want a DPS preist? none, they want a holy priest, thats what the class is supposed to do."

How many groups want a DPS warrior? none, they want a protection warrior, thats what the class is supposed to do.

2/24/2006 1:40:24 PM

yes, i made a protection warrior because im not stupid and i know what the classes are designed to do.

If i wanted to deal damage i would have picked another class, not a warrior. and if i did make a warrior to do damage im not going to bitch about the damage i take.

If i wanted to farm shit at lvl 60, i wont chose to play a priest.

Youre bitching about not being able to kill shit fast in a spec that isnt designed to kill things fast. durr. how fast do you think protection based warriors can kill shit? yeah im in zero danger from a couple mobs my level but i either have to bandage after it or sit and eat. Its not like protection warriors are farming machines.

I agree with you that warriors are a more open ended as far as how you can play them...but if youre going to start a priest you should be smart enough to realize that youre going to be a group dependent character.(at least in holy spec)


[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 1:51 PM. Reason : *]

2/24/2006 1:47:42 PM

Quote :

"Youre bitching about not being able to kill shit fast in a spec that isnt designed to kill things fast. durr."

Quote :

"It's not like we're bitching about not being able to rape things and run through them with ease, but with the exception of like two spells there are absolutely no holy damage spells (which are unuseable) and really only about two Shadow damage spells when you're holy spec."

You should learn to read.

Quote :

"how fast do you think protection based warriors can kill shit? yeah im in zero danger from a couple mobs my level but i either have to bandage after it or sit and eat."

Cry me a river. You're in no danger, but take a long time to kill, whereas we can barely kill. I know exactly how fast a protection spec warrior can kill something and it's a whole lot faster than a holy priest can do it.

Like I said, it's not like holy priests are looking to be DPS machines, but being able to do some kind of damage to keep us alive would be pretty damn choice.

2/24/2006 2:00:46 PM

This is why my priest isn't my main I make my hunter do all the mule work now so there's no need to farm with the priest.

2/24/2006 2:02:09 PM

just a note

bitching about not killing things fast enough

is not the same as

complaining about not being able to rape things and blow through them with ease.


you obvioulsy have a sore vagina because things dont die fast enough for you, which is exactly what i said

lern2read

and like I said, if you started a priest with the intention to spec to holy and try to solo shit or farm stuff...youre not too bright. You CAN kill shit, in shadow spec. just like my warrior CAN do DPS...but not in prot spec

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 2:05 PM. Reason : *]

2/24/2006 2:04:29 PM

Tell you what.

Why don't you come back after logging some time on a holy priest so you might actually have a clue what you're talking about.

It'll be cute to watch you apologize.

2/24/2006 2:09:59 PM

thats fine, but im not going to fall in the same trap that you did. mostly because im not stupid and wont try to grind/lvl/farm with a fucking holy spec'd priest

btw hows your lv 60 prot warrior doing?

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 2:11 PM. Reason : *]

2/24/2006 2:10:35 PM

Quote :

"thats fine, but im not going to fall in the same trap that you did. mostly because im not stupid and wont try to grind/lvl/farm with a fucking holy spec'd priest "

You couldn't grind or level with a holy speced priest. That's why you only see them at 60. You can't kill anything.

Quote :

"btw hows your lv 60 prot warrior doing?"

Pretty well, actually. I'll be honest and say I never picked up the keyboard, but I used to watch porcha run around when he was protection speced before all his gear was purple. We'd make little jokes about how he was getting bashed on by shit in Burning Steppes but was taking no damage whatsoever. It was pretty awesome watching him pull a pool of mobs (like 3 or 4) and have him kill them all with something like 35-45% health left.

Especially since it would have taken my priest speced holy about 18 seconds to do something like 1,000 damage.

porcha's got too much gear nowadays to be bothered to be protection spec. It really doesn't seem to matter for him at all.

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 2:19 PM. Reason : .]

2/24/2006 2:16:19 PM

its quite fun to do that indeed.

you should try playing a class that will let you do what you want to do.

Quote :

"You couldn't grind level with a holy speced priest. That's why you only see them at 60. You can't kill anything."

youre not supposed to be able to kill anything with a holy priest. thats why i said if you want to be a priest and kill shit you have the shadow spec.

Thats also why I agree with you that warriors allow more dynamic gameplay. I just dont see a problem with it

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 2:20 PM. Reason : *]

2/24/2006 2:18:54 PM

I have both a level 60 Mage and a level 60 Shaman and a near level 42 Druid.

I can honestly play whatever class I want. The worthlessness of Priests when speced holy has always been a sore spot considering no other class gets all their damage taken away and given to a shitty spell tree just to spec for raids.

The other issue is that once you hit 60 all your set gear is devoted to just +healing shit as well which a shadow priest gains absolutely no benefit from, so you really don't even have much of a choice in how you want to spec at 60.

Quote :

"youre not supposed to be able to kill anything with a holy priest."

I think you're grossly misunderstanding what I mean by "holy priests can't kill anything".

Let me clarify.

I mean that, 1v1 against an equal level PvE mob (non-elite), you're going to have an issue killing it.

You basically sit there and keep healed while you watch your DOT tick and Mind Blast every 5 seconds.

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 2:25 PM. Reason : .]

2/24/2006 2:21:11 PM

Lokken I think what you do not understand is the gear bonus distribution.

My holy priest has over +400 in healing and +3 holy spell crit, not to mention other spell crit. How does this help me kill things? do I heal them to death?

Then take a mage or warlock, they get + DAMAGE and healing gear, so they end up with +400 to "damage and healing", not just healing.

And if a priest asks to be able to roll on the "+damage and healing" gear, they get a "stfu and enjoy your +heal only gear."

You know how a holy priest beats a protection spec warrior? The fight takes 10 minutes, but this is all I do:

1. Shadow Word: Pain
2. Power Word: Shield
3. Renew
4. Repeat 1-3 until warrior is dead.

That is basically the only way a priest with that much healing can kill anything. Especially when my renews heal for around 400 a tick.


My point is, just imagine being a class where you can't go anywhere without an escort. In Alterac Valley, my only way to get any HKs is to partner with a warrior or just sit around and leech off the raid.

Not to mention people don't even notice or care when they get healed, only about how much damage or killing blows they do.

Not to mention as soon as people see the huge ass fucking benediction in the background they ignore the warrior and go straight for me.

Not to mention a power word shield can be broken through in 2 hits from a mortal strike warrior, mage, or rogue.

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 2:30 PM. Reason : ]

2/24/2006 2:28:19 PM

playing alterac yesterday, alliance guy had no buffs, then out of no where he had 10 buffs. Sad the alliance had to use hacks to beat us last night.

2/24/2006 2:35:22 PM

I get what you guys are saying, I do.

Im just saying priests are designed to be party players, and support only characters. It doesnt surprise or upset me that a priest specced to be a healer takes a while to kill an equal leveled enemy.

I mean its fine if you want their playstyle to be more dynamic, maybe blizz will do it one day.

2/24/2006 2:35:23 PM

blah blah blah preists, whatever.

lets talk about mage specs...for pvp especially.

2/24/2006 2:38:15 PM

No. Go back to your druid.

2/24/2006 2:39:25 PM

druid sucks i cant kill shit fast enough or burn through anything in seconds.

2/24/2006 2:42:57 PM

Quote :

"lets talk about mage specs...for pvp especially. "

trinket trinket fire run away

2/24/2006 2:44:01 PM

^

2/24/2006 2:45:07 PM

Quote :

"trinket trinket fire run away"

k but what about without the trinkets..i dont plan on doing any pve with the mage.

2/24/2006 2:45:49 PM

mages are still viable without the trinkets. not sure exactly what youre wanting to know. im not an expert on mages

2/24/2006 2:46:59 PM

is fire a good way to at 60 or will mc geared people resist my shit too much?

im going 21/0/30 right now (arcane/ice) and it has a lot of options for snaring shit but i don't put out a lot of damage.

just trying to decide if the respec is a good idea...

2/24/2006 2:51:44 PM

no one runs around in FR gear.

fire spec is the most powerful.


you could probably be more useful in group pvp as a frost mage with all the slowing stuff, but when have you ever met a mage who wanted to help in a group?

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 2:57 PM. Reason : .]

2/24/2006 2:56:37 PM

ie if youre running solo id go fire. if youre running with a guild its nice to have a mix of frost and fire mages so take your pic

2/24/2006 3:01:39 PM

This is how I roll:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mages/talents.html?0050525102010005051221320031500000000000000000

It's a pretty pro spec, but you really need a good bit of +dmg/crit gear for it to really take off. If I was confined only to using blues, id probably go with the crit build :

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mages/talents.html?0050525102014205050221320031000000000000000000

or the cookie cutter arcane power/fire mage:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mages/talents.html?0250525102014315550221000000000000000000000000

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 3:02 PM. Reason : :]

2/24/2006 3:02:14 PM

i do try to hit everything with a frost nova or blizzard or something to keep it all moving slow but i'm usually not kept alive long enough for it to matter.

thats why i was thinking fire would be better so i could be more helpful by just blowing shit up faster..

2/24/2006 3:03:28 PM

fire and ice can both be useful in PvP depending on play style. I hated playing ice pretty much ever and I loved the DPS/mp efficiency of scorch (highest DPS/mp after pyroblast.) it really depends on what you find works the best. try them both out.

^ yeah... in group there's pretty much only specific times when AOE'ing is appropriate. Barring mana concerns, cone of cold, and blast wave, followed far behind by flamestrike are all much more useful in PVP than blizzard (because you don't have to channel them and don't become a still and hated target)

[Edited on February 24, 2006 at 3:07 PM. Reason : ]

2/24/2006 3:05:28 PM

I'm more or less straight up fire:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mages/talents.html?0050505100000005540221330031510000000000000000

2/24/2006 3:06:02 PM

Quote :

"If I was confined only to using blues, id probably go with the crit build : http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mages/talents.html?0050525102014205050221320031000000000000000000 "

this looks like something that could work pretty well. im gonna try it out right now, gonna be weird losing my badass ice skillz though

2/24/2006 3:07:13 PM

I don't care what the general population of WoW thinks because they cry about everything being overrpowered. All I care is about my general observations which for the most part are dead on. I don't care what you got crit for. It proves nothing. I've gotten two shot by mages before just like I've two shot them before. I haven't however, even when specc'd for the highest DPS possible and with a modest +300 spell dmg, passed equivalently geared mages on DPS charts in raids without a shadow priest. Thats sustained damage over time.

Yea, Warlocks have more health then mages so when you're sitting there mashing your favorite button they probably take longer to kill. However, in any duel situation, I gaurantee you that a well geared mage good mage is going to kill his opponent faster then a well geared warlock good warlock and that further blows your "more damage lol" theory out of the water. This being burst damage.

Hence my saying, stfu.

2/24/2006 3:07:37 PM

WoW gets two big thumbs down.

2/24/2006 4:59:22 PM

Bah, mage vs warlock debates again. Fun. Yes, warlocks have more survivability in HP, but mages are so superior in the CC/escape department its not even funny. Sheep, Blink, FN. Warlocks can fear/seduce, but there are so many immunities its not even funny. As alliance, I dont even bother against anyone who isn't a hunter.

And Destro lock burst dmg is brutal. Not to mention I can hit someone with a large barrage of spells that the opponent cant do a darn thing about.

2/25/2006 12:51:43 AM

weird i typed up a response to sandsanta's last post last night but its not there now..hm

anywho i got crit for over 3k 4 times so far today in wsg so far :p by 3 different warlocks that is

just get some better gear.

but yea i still never argued that warlocks can do more DPS than a mage, that would be absurd, and i still wasnt talking about PVE or PVE damage charts. unless a mage is double trinketed and pops both of them warlocks are 10x tougher in PVP

ps 4.2k crit from a warlock just now

[Edited on February 25, 2006 at 5:02 PM. Reason : crits zomg]

2/25/2006 4:50:48 PM

Well, I can burn through shards and life and out DPS any mage at my level, but I'll end up worthless and dead after about two minutes.

But yeah, I'm sick of all the fucking Fear immunities. Every grunt has got at least one.

2/25/2006 7:55:28 PM

is it fucking up for anyone else? i keep getting some error as soon as dude enters the world

2/26/2006 1:18:36 AM

What error?

2/26/2006 1:55:06 AM

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/priests2/talents.html

13/3/35 PvP spec

[Edited on February 26, 2006 at 10:16 AM. Reason : -]

2/26/2006 10:13:14 AM

^^ i dont remember. some kind of memory read error or something. and it cant connect to send the bug report either. oh well guess they dont want my money!!!1

2/26/2006 10:38:17 AM

Seems like a memory read error is something on your end.


I started a warrior last night to possibly twink. By level 5 he had more armor than my 49 lock

2/26/2006 11:51:33 AM

im a 21 disc/30 holy priest right now. my mind blasts crit for 1.1K, smite crits for 800-900. just get some dmg and healing gear. yes i heal, only when i'm in a good pvp grp (ppl going for High Warlord, or a guild grp), otherwise I go out and dps.

2/26/2006 2:37:08 PM

Quote :

"Seems like a memory read error is something on your end. I started a warrior last night to possibly twink. By level 5 he had more armor than my 49 lock "

haha we started twink rogues last night...gonna suck for whoever goes up against us.

2/26/2006 2:45:38 PM