^me too!! 2013 fusion looks nice!

4/27/2012 11:27:12 PM

I wonder if I could get work to install some charging stations. That would make it even more practical.

4/28/2012 12:29:15 PM

im about flippin tired of doing warranty work on these motherfuckers

4/29/2012 1:57:09 AM

You don't really need a charging station at work. You just need a dedicated outlet. Since the car will be charging for 9 hours, 240V station isn't necessary. Now if you often take your car to get lunch, then that would diminish the return.

4/29/2012 8:43:42 AM

The parking lot isn't exactly close to the buildings and I'm pretty sure they don't have exterior outlets anyway. Installing some sort of outdoor outlet near/in the parking lot would suffice, but I'm sure a charging station would be better just for those who may come and go during the day.

4/30/2012 12:35:56 AM

thats a hard sell for a lot of businesses. If you work for a corporation, you have a good shot, however. Qualcomm, for example, has 8 charging stations. They already have 12 plug in cars fighting for the 8 spots every day. This is definitely an example of 'if you build it, they will come.'

4/30/2012 9:25:55 AM

Quote :

"im about flippin tired of doing warranty work on these motherfuckers"

What kind of common issues do they come in with?

4/30/2012 10:11:41 AM

I dont know if this is what he is referring to, but all Volts built prior to this month are having the battery reinforcement done, the airbag checked, and a new portable EVSE due to a crappy plug. The work requires a good part of the day, I am told.

Besides that, the issues I hear most about online are quirks with charging (unable to charge message) and a few issues with the brakes making some unusual noises.

4/30/2012 10:21:04 AM

^^ it's pretty easy for them to give you enough stations for a leed credit.

But otherwise it's a PITA

4/30/2012 10:22:04 AM

I have been in an absolute knock down drag out at my work over this issue. I have not made any headway with getting dedicted 120V outlets, and then allowing them to charge me for the electric use. Would amount to about $1 a day. I pretty much gave up, and now park 2 blocks down from work, where I pay the business owner to charge as well as the space. Ends up being about what I was spending to park at the University without electricity, and the walk is under 5 minutes.

4/30/2012 10:27:15 AM

well yeah... the sub-metering equipment they would have to purchase to officially sell you power costs a fortune.

4/30/2012 10:53:59 AM

Wow so the flagship university who had stories in the paper last month about all the employees using EV cars to commute and they will not hook you up with a 120V outlet??? What about all those poor Leaf drivers who are coming here, are they SOL too?

4/30/2012 10:56:25 AM

I am all for alternative fuels, but I dont understand why people are expecting companies to install these chargers and foot the bill for the infrastructure required.

You wouldn't ask them to build gas pumps, even if you intended to pay for the gas you take.

4/30/2012 10:59:35 AM

Quote :

"well yeah... the sub-metering equipment they would have to purchase to officially sell you power costs a fortune."

They dont need sub metering equipment. Estimated use is fine for what this is. They are all pulling 12 AMPs. In my case, I'll use up about 12 kilowatt hours in a day. Just do estimated charge back.

There are already companies doing this. BP, for example (believe it or not).

Quote :

"You wouldn't ask them to build gas pumps, even if you intended to pay for the gas you take."

Depending on the company, there are often many benefits that are offered that people are not able to take advantage of. So I wouldnt say electric car owners 'expect' it, but it isnt so different than a lot of other fringe benefits. For example, I don't have kids, and if I work someplace that subsidizes child care for their employees, is that fair to me? I think what most EV users expect is that employers will make 'reasonable' accomodations. If that means allowing them to connect to an outside outlet, and write them a check for your $30 of electricity a month, then that is reasonable. Getting an EVSE installed is another issue. I wouldnt expect it. It would be asked for, but not expected.

Quote :

"Wow so the flagship university who had stories in the paper last month about all the employees using EV cars to commute and they will not hook you up with a 120V outlet??? What about all those poor Leaf drivers who are coming here, are they SOL too?"

It is an embarassment. Thankfully, the county is installing a few, and there will be some places to charge in Orange county in the next couple of weeks.


[Edited on April 30, 2012 at 11:12 AM. Reason : .]

4/30/2012 11:06:28 AM

are you familiar with the regulations governing the sale and metering of power?

4/30/2012 11:38:29 AM

Yes. I am fully aware of sub metering laws. I am also aware there are many ways to get around them.

[Edited on April 30, 2012 at 11:51 AM. Reason : .]

4/30/2012 11:48:07 AM

10-4

I'm a mechanical guy so i hear people bitching about them but i really don't know what they are.

(and i know the prices of equipment involved)

4/30/2012 11:50:56 AM

You should totally park it at the entrance to the Dean's office and run a long ass orange extension cord to the neares outlet, making sure it runs across the front entrance. Or maybe you alternate petween Dean's office and PR office where reporters usually come in. Continue to do so until they get the point.

I think ultimately electric companies should be the ones picking up the bill and operating these chargers, and then there would not be any submetering issues. These meters would be able to read credit cards just like the parking meters, and since the daily charges would probably too low to warrant a credit card transaction, the meter can just use credit card number to identify the owner and add the charge to his/her account. Then the card would be run maybe once a month or something for amount that is actually worth something. It would be a net loss for electric companies in the short term, but in the long term they will start eating oil companies' lunch. A lot more people would be enticed to purchase plug-in hybrids or full electric cars if the chargers were readily available. Power company executives should grow some balls and launch a full on campaign in markets that get electric vehicles.

4/30/2012 12:48:54 PM

Quote :

"thats a hard sell for a lot of businesses. If you work for a corporation, you have a good shot, however. Qualcomm, for example, has 8 charging stations. They already have 12 plug in cars fighting for the 8 spots every day. This is definitely an example of 'if you build it, they will come.'"

Hell, I work for Schneider-Electric, whose SquareD division builds and sells EV charging stations (we installed the ones downtown) and even we don't have any at our offices.

Nor do we have shower facilities for cyclists (though we do at our Texas HQ).

[Edited on April 30, 2012 at 12:55 PM. Reason : kj]

4/30/2012 12:53:51 PM

Yeah, however, I imagine if an employee at Schneider asked for one, it would be installed really quickly

4/30/2012 1:17:40 PM

I mean... i just feel that you're over estimating the budget of a facility operation group

I mean i can't even get my building to get toilet paper that doesn't make my ass bleed. Most building especially public ones operate on a budget that doesn't allow them to keep up with proper maintenance on the equipment they do have let alone add any.

I mean it shouldn't be a big deal to add a few well placed low voltage single phase outlets...

But it could be... i mean if its a public university it may have to be a public bid (probably not if it's done on the cheap)... and then it will be news about adding facilities for electric cars and then your loop holes will probably be cut etc.

4/30/2012 1:43:36 PM

Actually, EVSE installs, even at public places, have been held with good regard in the news media. For example, NC State has just opened up 10 charging stations on campus. They are actually giving away the electricity for free. They spent about 125k for the installs, but were getting about half of that back through government subsidy. It was widely advertised. The city of Raleigh has installed a LOT of stations. They are leading the state.

i understand the financial pains for this. In the committees I participate on funded by the DoE, I am working aggressively to get industry recommendations for standard 120V outlets, designed to meet code and work well with electric cars, as a cheap alternative to Level 2 charging stations. Right now, most places think they have to install a 5k charging station. In shopping centers, level 2s are appropriate. But MOST (not all) charging for electric vehicles on work can be done via Level 1 charging off a standard outlet.

Ultimately there has to be a charge back model that works for the EV owners and businesses.

http://ncsc.ncsu.edu/index.php/2012/04/11/north-carolina-state-university-is-getting-charged-up/

[Edited on April 30, 2012 at 1:53 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2012 1:48:36 PM

is there any security for these public charging stations?

couldn't someone just walk up and steal your cord lol

4/30/2012 7:18:02 PM

Quote :

"battery reinforcement done"

mainly that and the charging shit. that and morons leave their smart phones on the pass. seat and the seat belt shit goes off and airbag shit goes haywire as fuck.

4/30/2012 7:28:26 PM

So, you're saying there isn't anything really wrong, but they think there was something wrong because they kept getting the passenger airbag light disabled going on and off? I've had that happen with my dog riding shotgun, but figured that our myself.

My brakes make a cricket chirping sound just before I stop, and just after I release the brakes. Is that normal?

[Edited on April 30, 2012 at 9:11 PM. Reason : T]

4/30/2012 9:10:21 PM

yeah its just shitty hardware in the caliper if its the noise i think youre talkiing about.

4/30/2012 11:36:59 PM

Hey CarZin have you used any fast-charge stations yet? Are there any/many around here?

They have agreed on a standard for those right?


Also I thought this was interesting:
http://www.ncsu.edu/features/2012/04/charging-stations/

Quote :

"Electric vehicles have gotten a great deal of attention as a cleaner, more sustainable form of transportation. But it can be challenging to find places to charge an electric car. NC State is trying to make it easier, with three free charging stations in place and five more scheduled to be available in May. Each station is capable of charging two vehicles simultaneously. “NC State is committed to being a leader in sustainable energy, and that includes providing the infrastructure to support sustainable energy initiatives,” says David Dean, outreach and communications coordinator for sustainability and energy at NC State. NC State opened its first charging station at the E. Carroll Joyner Visitor Center in 2010, with funding from the North Carolina Department of Transportation and the university’s North Carolina Solar Center. The station is available free for public use, though those who use the station are asked to sign a log book in the visitor center to help researchers collect user data. Two additional charging stations will be unveiled April 19 in the parking lot of NC State’s McKimmon Center, adjacent to the Solar House. The charging stations can be used by any full-sized plug-in vehicles – such as the Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt – and can be used for free by the public. The cost for equipment and installation was provided by Progress Energy as part of a grant to study electric vehicle charging habits in a variety of environments. The units will be maintained by Progress Energy for two years while the company collects and analyzes data. The units then will become university property. Five more charging stations are scheduled to open on Centennial Campus by late May. The stations will be located at the Partners I, Partners II and Research IV buildings, and at the Oval West and Partners Way parking decks. No decision has been made on whether a fee will be charged for access to these stations."

5/7/2012 2:54:15 PM

i am not going to read this entire thread to look for it, but have you taken your car in to have the battery brace put in.

if you dont have it, get it.
if the car is in a side impact collision the coolant in the battery box can leak into the battery and cause a short and catch fire.

5/7/2012 6:23:08 PM

little bit of humor: last night we ran a call into downtown. while returning to quarters we were stopped at the light at dawson/hargett and i noticed 2 charging stations. while checking out the stations i also noticed oil stains in both parking spaces.

5/7/2012 8:48:38 PM

dis regard my last post. duh,

5/7/2012 9:09:43 PM

Ragged: Thanks for asking. Yeah, I had it done this past week. Regarding the 'fires', while it is a danger, its been proven highly unlikely. The first fire happened 3 weeks after NHTSA impacted the car in a side impact test. They tried to reproduce it in several other tests, and could not. The ONLY way they were able to get the battery to catch fire a second a third time was literally taking the battery out of the car, then slamming the impacting device into the battery. I kid you not. On gm-volt, there have been a few serious side impacts reported without the enhancement, and no fires. What is irritating regarding the fire coverage is that NHTSA drains gas tanks before they impact the car, but they did not 'drain' the energy from the battery.


Synapse: There is a major problem with the media and describing the equipment installed. Technically, 'Quick-charge' is THREE phase power, or said another way Level 3 charging. There are no public Level 3 chargers in the state. The only car that can charge with Level 3 is the Leaf. NC State installed 'Level 2', or two phase (240V) charging stations. I use charging stations all over the Raleigh area. The city already has a bunch.

I commonly use the charging stations at:
1) The spaces by the police station headquarters downtown
2) The spaces by the Convention Center
3) North Hills Shopping Center
4) Whole Foods

5/7/2012 10:02:16 PM

^CarZin aren't level 3 quick charge stations detrimental to the life of the battery? I thought I read that (more than once) about the Leaf.

Quote :

"little bit of humor: last night we ran a call into downtown. while returning to quarters we were stopped at the light at dawson/hargett and i noticed 2 charging stations. while checking out the stations i also noticed oil stains in both parking spaces."

Well obviously those parking spots have been there the whole time

5/8/2012 8:29:30 AM

Quote :

"two phase (240V) charging stations. "

wut.

5/8/2012 9:24:53 AM

so... its a brown out?

5/8/2012 9:25:57 AM

^^I think it's just a naming convention, not referring to the voltage...b/c that makes no sense

5/8/2012 9:35:06 AM

I'm an idiot. Sorry, I made a mistake in my own description. The Level 2 charging at 240V isnt two phase. Level 2 charging comes from a 240V circuit, and charges above 15 AMPs. Depending on the charge level, they can go beyond 30 AMPs. The level 3 stations are 3 phase (480V) circuits.

There seems to be a lot of debate about level 3 charging. You will have some battery experts say it makes no difference, while others say charging at level 3 should be minimized. I think it comes down to battery chemistry, and whatever thermal management they have for the battery. It is likely there will never be a quick charge connector on a Volt. It makes no sense.

The interesting debate right now is what standard is going to be widely adopted. Nissan is sticking with their guns, while GM and everyone else has selected a SAE standard that is still a few years away from standardization (I believe).

This is an interesting video of the charging in action:

http://youtu.be/QlzHeU6sEH8


[Edited on May 8, 2012 at 10:49 AM. Reason : .]

5/8/2012 10:43:49 AM

it comes down to the number of cells and their arrangement and the cars ability to employ the 500volts and 3x the amperage draw it can now use.

I.E. if your car is powered by 6831 li-ion cells that can charge in parallel you will do no harm

if you have the same number of cells and try to charge them in series you will run into issues burning out cells by running excessive current through them.

and there are gray areas in between

5/8/2012 11:09:36 AM

Quote :

"The only car that can charge with Level 3 is the Leaf"

The Mitsubishi-i can quick-charge with Level 3 too.
http://www.mercurynews.com/cars/ci_20471685/field-trial-level-3-quick-charging-two-electric

Also it would make sense for fast-charging to be a priority for the all-electric cars, and not electric cars with a gas backup. Obviously the potential for fast charging can help mitigate the current issues with limited all-electric ranges.

Quote :

"SAE International is developing a national standard for the Level 3 connector--the plug and receptacle--but probably won't decide until next year."

If the Leaf and the Mitsu-i already use the same connector (I can only imagine those are the types of Level 3 connectors being installed now), I wonder if they will just default to that?

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20052811-48.html

Quote :

"As we celebrate Earth Day for 2012, it's impossible not to notice that electric cars, partly championed by the environmental movement, are becoming available with more on the horizon. While they've come in for a lot of criticism for their high prices, short driving range, and government subsidies, we've found they can cost less than half as much to operate as gas-powered cars. They use far less energy, giving them the energy equivalent of about 100 mpg. The cars that have come out in the last year, the Nissan Leaf, the Mitsubishi i, and the Ford Focus EV, are short-range electric cars, designed for commuting within about 40 miles of their owners' homes. That's because there's no widespread network of public electric-car charging stations to refill the cars if they drove farther than that. (Forget, for a moment, plug-in hybrid, or range-extended electric cars, which travel farther on gas.) Electric cars today are expected to charge in owners' garages. And as commuters, they're largely relegated to second-car status. But there's another, nascent vision for electric cars that's beginning to gain traction: the full-function electric car with a range-on batteries alone-roughly equivalent to gas cars'. The vision has largely been promoted by Tesla and its relentless and ambitious founder Elon Musk. For that vision to work it will require that a network of charging stations that can "refuel" a long-range electric car in not much more time than it takes to fuel a gas car today. Enter a new series of startup companies that have sprung up to begin building the infrastructure to charge these longer range electric cars. Most are working in the cities with the highest concentrations of electric cars, building largely Level 2 (240-volt) chargers, to help extend the reach of today's electric cars. But that can still take several hours. So some of the companies are pairing up with retailers to install so-called Level 3 "fast chargers," of up to 480 volts. This was made possible late last year by the adoption of a standard plug for these fast chargers, called the J1772 "Combo-coupler." The problem: Existing electric cars capable of accepting such a fast charge use two different kinds of plugs one on the Nissan Leaf, and yet a different one on the Tesla Roadster. No car yet uses the new plug. This week we got a visit from one entrepreneur, Bruce Brimacombe, who is trying to get a company, GoE3 off the ground that will supply chargers at a series of businesses that can easily charge all these types of cars with minimal modification. GoE3 plans to concentrate on building chargers along Interstates across the middle of the country - precisely where electric cars today pretty much can't go. He plans to connect electric-car communities in the East and West so believers can drive cross-country without running out of juice. The concept is similar to that of Israeli/Californian startup Better Place whose network of public charging is already up and running in Israel and Denmark and similar plans for Australia and other regions are in the works. This addresses a perceived problem among electric vehicle owners in California that many of the state's 1,200 plus charging stations use older charging technology that's incompatible with their cars, and so are useless. Other companies, such as BlueMobility and Blink are also beginning to adopt the new plug standard and offer multiple plugs. All these networks will be connected to mobile-phone applications to help drivers find and reserve available chargers. As electric car and battery prices come down, it will be interesting to see whether longer-range electric cars will win over more buyers. As the cars begin to hit the road, we'll be there to let you know how well they live up to their claims."

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/04/next-level-charging-stations-begin-to-expand.html

5/9/2012 10:52:03 AM

Just spoke to Stingray Chevrolet in Florida, as I am in the market for my sister in law to get a Volt. I asked them to quote the lease cost for their cheapest Volt and 15k miles a year. As long as you pay the taxes up front, the lease requires no more money, and the price is $299 a month with 15k miles a year. They will do a transfer to a local dealership where you will take delivery for around $500. This is the way to go if you want to try it without buying. For most of you, you spend $150-200 a month on gas anyway, so it would be a maintenance free car for 3 years for about $100 a month, assuming you can drive mostly electric.

[Edited on May 18, 2012 at 1:45 PM. Reason : .]

5/18/2012 1:44:53 PM

^ got me thinking.

I currently have a 2007 BMW 335i, covered by a CPO through late 2013. I think I have at least $3k of equity currently.

2007 BMW 335i:
Car Payment: $440/month
Gas: $180/month
Maintenance: $60/month (assuming no major non-CPO covered breakage)

2012 Chevrolet Volt:
Lease Payment: $350/month ($300 lease + $1300 NC taxes + $500 delivery to NC)
Power: $20/month? (I average 27 miles daily or 10,000/year)
Gas: $5/month? (enough for ~450 gas miles per year when I occasionally take it on trips)
Maintenance: $0?

Positives:
$680 - $375 = $305 per month savings
Driving a brand new car, that I consider to be cool
Not burning gas [or very little of it]. Infinity (I kid I kid) MPG versus the 17.5mpg I get now.
The alternative is getting a Cobb tune for the 335i and driving like even more of a maniac...incurring whatever outcomes result from that.
Pull out cash from the 335i

Negatives:
No enjoyment of driving a BMW 335i anymore. This one will hurt...though somewhat offset by how much I like the Volt.
I'm stuck? with it for 3 years. Though I suppose if I wanna go fast again $305/month (especially if I add in savings over the first year or two) or less can hook up something suitable.


Assuming:
1 - I can make due with a level 1 charger (overnight/10hr charges are fine for me, think I can even do some level 2 charging at work for free)
2 - I have no interest in buying the car after the lease term.
3 - I will sell the BMW. Shouldn't be that hard to get some decent $ for it with the CPO, and pull out some cash

Why shouldn't I do this? What else am I missing? What are the negatives here?


Also an alternative is buying it at $625/month ($600/month payment at 2% + power and gas)...versus the $680/month with the 335i. That way I get the $7500 credit and have some equity after the 3 years.

What say you TWW?

5/19/2012 12:26:25 AM

I think you've got it and understand all the issues.

You are not alone going from a luxury sports car to the Volt. I would say it is the norm for Volt owners. GM-Volt is filled with people that traded in their Audi/BMW/Porsche for the Volt. I just saw a post where a guy just traded his 2009 Corvette for one. While the Volt is not the aforementioned, it has so many nice qualities that for many people, will make up for the lack of power.

And for now, the car will turn a lot more heads. Last week, I had a van drive past me, and there was a kid that literally stuck his entire head out of the passenger window and was staring at the car as they drove past. Its fun.

If you get a 15k mile lease, you'll be out of warranty for normal components of the car from 36-45k. But all the electric components are covered for 10 years/100k miles, so there isnt much to worry about.

BTW... The current deal is 0% financing for up to 72 months if you buy. Making your above payment cheaper. You can get a Volt for 36k from Stingray.

[Edited on May 19, 2012 at 3:37 AM. Reason : .]

5/19/2012 3:36:47 AM

Much thanks goes to Carzin for his informative class that he taught yesterday to a group of firefighters. The man knows his stuff and should receive a kickback from GM. I will say this, if he says it believe it to be true.

Thanks again!

5/20/2012 8:13:40 PM

While I am currently taking it in the shorts with 70 miles of driving per day just on my work commute, I just can't see buying a Volt or Prius plug-in, when the automotive market is about to start shitting PEVs all over the place within the next year or two. I feel like--especially with currently high-ish gas prices, I'd be sure to pay a premium for the new tech right now, then likely get raped come resale time. I'm kinda inclined to buy a cheap, used econocar or older Prius/TDI as a stopgap solution (or just make do with the Z06 for a while longer), until the new-tech premium erodes from the PEVs, even though I would save a significant amount of fuel money upfront.

Actually, a great solution would be a TDI, as I have a friend from work who lives a couple miles away who homebrews biodiesel from waste vegetable oil, and said he'll sell it to me for $2/gallon. 45-50 mpg @ $2/gallon would be fantastic, AND then I wouldn't have a drive a fucking Prius. However, the resale values on the used market are pegged at full retard, to the point it's actually would kinda make sense to buy a new one...but then, I'm spending a bunch upfront to save a couple hundred per month, and again, I'm afraid that as more and more PEVs and uber-mpg cars come on the market, the TDI resale won't hold up to the way it is right now, and I'd take a beating on resale and wish I'd just waited a little to buy a PEV at a more reasonable price.

5/20/2012 10:19:13 PM

^^ Thanks I was happy to do it.

Duke: the resale is a hard thing to really know. I actually believe, while the federal tax break is in place, that resale will actually be HIGHER for a plug in hybrid than a traditional vehicle. But it is anyone's guess.

I will say that you shouldnt expect prices, or range, to make a big difference in the next 5 years. Battery prices are coming down, and so is the technology, but vehicle owners are likely to only slightly bring down the price for the next few years so they can recapture some R&D costs. The Volt has stayed pretty constant in the first two years, and we arent expecting much difference in the 2013.

5/21/2012 9:51:29 AM

Maybe I've heard wrong but aren't a lot of these tax credits/incentives going to expire soon?

5/21/2012 10:09:02 AM

No. The tax incentives, as written, are for the first 200k qualifying vehicles per manufacturer. This is the language on the IRS site:

Plug-in Electric Drive Vehicle Credit (Section 1141): The new law modifies the credit for qualified plug-in electric drive vehicles purchased after Dec. 31, 2009. To qualify, vehicles must be newly purchased, have four or more wheels, have a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 14,000 pounds, and draw propulsion using a battery with at least four kilowatt hours that can be recharged from an external source of electricity. The minimum amount of the credit for qualified plug-in electric drive vehicles is $2,500 and the credit tops out at $7,500, depending on the battery capacity. The full amount of the credit will be reduced with respect to a manufacturer's vehicles after the manufacturer has sold at least 200,000 vehicles.

In other news, I am trading cars today. I am driving home a coworker's Leaf, and he is taking my Volt. Should be a nice compare/contrast.

[Edited on May 21, 2012 at 10:16 AM. Reason : .]

5/21/2012 10:12:34 AM

Ahah, thanks for the tip!

5/21/2012 10:29:44 AM

I traded my Volt for a Leaf for a day. Volt without a doubt a much better engineered car, although the Leaf has a few things I'd like to see in the Volt.

5/22/2012 10:36:12 AM

hahaa wut?

5/22/2012 11:06:23 AM

^Drive the red Leaf at the office? What were his thoughts after driving the Volt?

5/22/2012 11:16:48 AM