no idea if the "RAWR RAWR ITS A MENTAL DISORDER" crowd will take the time to watch this, but I'll post it anyways

here's a panel of scientists and medical professionals discussing gender identity and transgenderism on Charlie Rose last month

watch it and learn: http://www.charlierose.com/watch/60578677

sometimes it's nice to learn about a subject before acting like you know what the hell you're talking about

7/17/2015 10:44:43 AM

Quote :

"I noticed that everyone "defending" Jenner ITT is a man. Meanwhile women like Bridget, who has both the gender identification and biology of a woman (a real woman), says Caitlyn isn't really a woman. "

Yeah that is really interesting. I always felt like females were more sympathetic to this type of thing. I guess the TWW board is made up of hyper-sensitive libtards.

7/17/2015 11:57:42 AM

dude, your name calling is petty and childish.

... and Bridget is one of the few females that posts on TWW, and the only one posting in this thread, so I hardly think she represents women.

7/17/2015 12:03:32 PM

When your gender and sex do not align, that is a disorder. Gender Identity Disorder is a disorder. Your gender and sex are out of order, therefore it is referred to as a disorder.

Quote :

"sometimes it's nice to learn about a subject before acting like you know what the hell you're talking about"

Like on page 11 of this thread where you thought there were no Federal laws specifically protecting transpeople? Then you learned what the hell you were talking about?

I swear... I can tolerate the "you're just a bigot and I'm the morale authority" defense from liberals, but the constant unmerited snobbish, condescending, "holier than thou" tone... especially when they are wrong.

7/17/2015 12:23:07 PM

when did I say that there were no laws? I asked for them to be posted. they were.

why are you so adamant to discount the field whose job it is to determine what is and isn't a mental disorder?

7/17/2015 12:32:04 PM

Are you denying that "Gender Identity Disorder" is a thing?

7/17/2015 12:54:15 PM

Quote :

"When your gender and sex do not align, that is a disorder. Gender Identity Disorder is a disorder. Your gender and sex are out of order, therefore it is referred to as a disorder. "

you keep repeating this, but you still don't get it. at this point, aside from still having a penis and balls, Caitlin Jenner is closer to being a woman biologically than a man. Her gender and biology mostly match up now, and she seems to be happy and secure with her transition. She's obviously had hormone therapy and she's physically altered her appearance to have the features of a female. Are you saying that women who've had mastectomies, hysterectomies, etc aren't women anymore, simply because they've had their sex organs removed? c'mon dude.





[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 1:57 PM. Reason : it's back to the "ew gross" thing again ITT]

7/17/2015 1:55:21 PM

Quote :

"aside from still having a penis and balls, Caitlin Jenner is closer to being a woman biologically than a man"

7/17/2015 1:58:35 PM

what is difficult to understand about this? so if she has them removed, then will you be satisfied? what difference does it make?

7/17/2015 1:59:35 PM

^^and that whole pesky chromosome thing.

7/17/2015 2:02:43 PM

so, Khloe identifies as a man, right?

7/17/2015 2:05:03 PM

^^so are people who are born with missing or extra chromosomes, not people anymore since they aren't "normal"? slippery slope here we come. next thing you know, people will start transitioning into toasters!

[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 2:06 PM. Reason : .]

7/17/2015 2:05:50 PM

Quote :

"When your gender and sex do not align, that is a disorder. Gender Identity Disorder is a disorder. Your gender and sex are out of order, therefore it is referred to as a disorder. "

those are not the only criteria for a Gender Identity Disorder diagnosis

but I'm not sure what your point was

7/17/2015 2:11:36 PM

ujustwait, thegoodlife, and your ilk may not like it, but society has divided the overwhelming majority of people into two distinct categories, that just happen to coincide with our sex. My argument here is that you shouldn't call people bigots when they don't agree with what Bruce has done, because those people have been conditioned all their life to think a certain way. This applies to the majority of people who live in a society where binary gender applies.

Stop the name calling, stop the condescending tone, and just let people believe what they want, the same way we'll do with Bruce. The majority of males have been programmed that to have a penis, is to be male, and to have a vagina is to be female. When that programming doesn't compile, which is doesn't for about what, 1% of the population, don't go name calling because we think it is weird, out of place, or a disorder.

7/17/2015 2:13:22 PM

what is there to "agree with" ? she's living her life. why the fuck do you all care so much? i've said it before, and i'll say it again. she's the epitome of an attention seeking, dramatic female. don't like her? fine. stop talking about her. [/thread]

7/17/2015 2:15:29 PM

Hey this thread was dead, I'm not the one who bttt'd it.

And something else. If I were a woman, I think I'd be a little miffed that after years of taking advantage of male privilege, he can just all of a sudden swap genders and reap the benefits of both.

I believe most people ITT would agree with me (who disagree with Caitlyn) that it isn't Bruce we're concerned about, in the larger scheme of things, its the left's reaction to it. We all could care less what he does as a person. Its the pedestal upon which he has been seated that I take issue with mostly.

[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 2:21 PM. Reason : sdfaa]

7/17/2015 2:20:02 PM

Quote :

"ujustwait, thegoodlife, and your ilk may not like it, but society has divided the overwhelming majority of people into two distinct categories, that just happen to coincide with our sex."

pretty sure that I'm included in society

and societies evolve. this is an example of it. things that weren't even talked about, and in some cases criminalized, are now in the open and society learns more and also learns to be more accepting

you can either be aware and willing to learn more about things, or be ignorant and chose not to. that's the case with many more things than transgenderism

7/17/2015 2:24:29 PM

^^She did a brave thing that warrants lots of media attention by coming out and forcing the public to acknowledge the elephant in the room. Jealous much? Personally, I don't put her on a pedestal, mostly because she's rich and and using the attention to make herself even wealthier, while 40% of other transpeople end up killing themselves.

[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 2:26 PM. Reason : .]

7/17/2015 2:25:49 PM

Quote :

"When your gender and sex do not align, that is a disorder. Gender Identity Disorder is a disorder. Your gender and sex are out of order, therefore it is referred to as a disorder. "

Quote :

" those are not the only criteria for a Gender Identity Disorder diagnosis but I'm not sure what your point was "

My point was being born as a man thinking you are a woman is a disorder. My point was Gender Identity Disorder is a disorder.

According to thegoodlife3 this is not the case because of "decades of science".

7/17/2015 2:29:10 PM

Quote :

"what is difficult to understand about this? so if she has them removed, then will you be satisfied? what difference does it make?"

Yes, my personal satisfaction relies on Jenner removing his testicles

It doesn't make any difference, he still is a male. I quoted that sentence just to try and show you how absurd it sounds. "Asides from being a man, Bruce is a woman".

7/17/2015 2:31:46 PM

it's a disorder? really? tell us more! is it treatable? can people go on to lead happy, healthy lives? this is all so fascinating to me!

7/17/2015 2:31:46 PM

You're part of the problem by saying that what Bruce did required courage. No it didn't. It required a craving for attention.

7/17/2015 2:54:13 PM

rawr rawr organic! natural! rawr rawr!

gender identity issues...let's throw science and artificial things at it! rawr rawr!

srsly tho...

Quote :

"so if she has them removed, then will you be satisfied?"

nope, never. because he ain't she. you can remove the muffler from a Honda, but it don't make it a Lamborghini.

7/17/2015 3:04:08 PM

Quote :

"Jealous much? "

lol. yes, I'm sure everyone who doesn't understand transgenderism or thinks it's weird or a "disorder" are just jealous of Bruce/Caitlyn.

7/17/2015 3:05:46 PM

Arthur Ashe is rolling in his grave. Then he rolls again, and hits an amazing backhand.

7/17/2015 3:09:17 PM

Quote :

"My point was being born as a man thinking you are a woman is a disorder. My point was Gender Identity Disorder is a disorder. According to thegoodlife3 this is not the case because of "decades of science". "

but it's not a disorder unless it causes problems in your life, if you accept it and don't try to live in conflict then it is not a disorder.

you keep misusing gender identity disorder thinking that it somehow supports your point, but it absolutely does not. Gender Identify Disorder is when being a different sex or gender than that assigned at birth causes dysphoria (a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction, anxiety, depression, etc...). that kind of anxiety is usually caused by external influences like bigoted idiots like you, it's not from some innate disability.

If someone has accepted their gender and is living open with it and are satisfied with that, then they do not suffer from a disorder

tl;dr, you trying to hang on to this disorder argument is stupid because it's obvious that you haven't even googled "gender identity disorder" before trying to use it in your argument.

[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 3:13 PM. Reason : .]

7/17/2015 3:12:34 PM

guys...gender isn't even a real thing if you can make it whatever you want it to be. we're arguing over nothing now.

7/17/2015 3:41:35 PM

Quote :

"You're part of the problem by saying that what Bruce did required courage. No it didn't. It required a craving for attention."

it absolutely required courage- it had never been done before. it was also attention seeking. the two aren't mutually exclusive

Quote :

"lol. yes, I'm sure everyone who doesn't understand transgenderism or thinks it's weird or a "disorder" are just jealous of Bruce/Caitlyn."

i dunno. being obsessed and angry with all attention she's been getting seems a little unhealthy/jealous to me. why else would you give a shit? turn the channel or close the tab. methinks the lady doth protesteth too much:

Quote :

"f I were a woman, I think I'd be a little miffed that after years of taking advantage of male privilege, he can just all of a sudden swap genders and reap the benefits of both"

[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 3:47 PM. Reason : u mad, bruh?]

7/17/2015 3:44:53 PM

again, lol. sure, people are talking on the wolf web about this because they are jealous .... and i assume you were jealous of ian c. dunne because you were raging hardern than anyone on the wolf web about getting him fired? that's a stupid, infantile way to debate.

7/17/2015 3:56:28 PM

Quote :

"You're part of the problem by saying that what Bruce did required courage. No it didn't. It required a craving for attention."

what problem?

being accepting and empathetic towards others?

and if it didn't require courage, she wouldn't have stayed in the closet until she was 65

7/17/2015 3:57:44 PM

Quote :

"you keep misusing gender identity disorder thinking that it somehow supports your point"

Are you telling me Jenner doesn't have Gender Identity Disorder?

I was told ITT that referring to the condition as a "disorder" was bigoted and disrespectful, that's why I refer to GID, "disorder" is literally part of the term, so it absolutely supports my point.

Quote :

"that kind of anxiety is usually caused by external influences like bigoted idiots like you"

Or maybe surgically trying to accomplish something that is impossible can lead to depression?

7/17/2015 4:01:56 PM

Just popped back in.


^Gender Identity disorder is correct. Sex change operations are a common and widely accepted treatment for the disorder.

A lot of people struggle with the idea that your biological sex and gender are one in the same, which isn't the case for some (though its extremely rare).

Think of it like sexual orientation. Traditional thinking was that if you were born male then your sexual orientation would be an attraction to females. However, as time went on more and more research found that your biological sex and sexual orientation are not cemented together, and for some individuals biological factors created same sex attraction. So while a man can have a penis that doesn't mean that his brain is automatically going to start chasing vaginas.

Its the same with GID. Your body can say your a male, but biological factors can create a mind that is female.

For most people, sexual orientation and gender align with their biological sex. That doesn't mean its the same for 100% of the people, since some outliers will have a mismatch between their sex and their gender.

[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 4:21 PM. Reason : ]

7/17/2015 4:21:27 PM

Quote :

"and if it didn't require courage, she wouldn't have stayed in the closet until she was 65"

woulda been a lot more courageous to do it 10 or 20 years ago

Quote :

"it absolutely required courage- it had never been done before"

what had never been done before?

7/17/2015 4:33:59 PM

a mega famous, former world-class athlete come out as transgendered

7/17/2015 4:35:39 PM

I guess. Though most people under the age of 40 know Bruce as the dad on the Kardashians. Almost like if Jason Collins waited until he was 30 years removed from the NBA to come out of the closet.

7/17/2015 4:37:59 PM

the guy was one of the most famous and admired athletes of his era

something that Jason Collins never was

7/17/2015 4:41:01 PM

Not to mention gender is a pretty big deal in professional sports. You're whole career is based on you being a man, or being a woman, so for a person to transition, its a big deal.

I do think a big reason she got the award was not just for her own merits, but for the impact it makes on living individuals who are struggling with their own gender identities.

It's a big deal when a very popular and well known celebrity does something like that so publicly, and for ESPN and a large part of the celebrity world to come out in support of it, it makes a difference for those that interact with transgender people.

7/17/2015 4:41:22 PM

How much of an impact has Caitlyn made so far though? Wouldn't it be better to revisit in a couple years, then give her the award?

The award is dumb anyway, but it didn't used to be.

7/17/2015 4:45:33 PM

groundbreaking is groundbreaking

and stop pretending like anybody gave a damn about any award the ESPY's have ever given out

7/17/2015 4:49:12 PM

Quote :

"again, lol. sure, people are talking on the wolf web about this because they are jealous .... and i assume you were jealous of ian c. dunne because you were raging hardern than anyone on the wolf web about getting him fired? that's a stupid, infantile way to debate. "

you take things way too seriously dude

7/17/2015 4:49:21 PM

TT10 mentioned my post on the previous page, and I think he may have misinterpreted the part of the article I quoted. However, I do have some feelings about this Caitlyn business...women got "feelings," y'all! I'm also shocked that so many of you don't have a word of confusion, criticism, or doubt.



My friend's grandmother was a very poor farm girl who pretty much jumped at the first man who showed any interest in her. And they had an agreement...that's how it was back then: You be pretty and nice and have a couple babies for me, and I'll get you out of this place--I'll even build you a house. And he did. He built her a huge house. Not a fancy one but definitely an enormous one. And why so big? Cause he didn't want a couple kids; he wanted as many as he could have, which turned out to be eight.

This woman had an older sister who had already been institutionalized repeatedly for postpartum depression at a time when most doctors still called it the "baby blues" and advised women to just deal with it. So it wasn't a surprise when my friend's grandmother didn't fair so well herself with having 8 children. She spent a lot of her time "doing laundry." The laundry machine was in the basement, and she'd sit down in the dark in a rocking chair, chain-smoking cigarettes for several hours a day.

She hated having children, and she never let them forget it. But four of those children were girls, and she relentlessly hounded them about school and urged them to not end up like her, especially when so many new opportunities were starting to emerge. And so they became a medical doctor, an attorney, a Ph.D. statistician, and a chemist. To get there, they obviously needed to go to college where professors still called them "sweetheart," gently explained they'd signed up for the wrong class, and even point blank asked them in front of an otherwise all-male class: "What do you think you're doing here?"

Those four women did not wear dresses or make-up. And they definitely didn't have time to paint their nails. They were frizzy gray-haired people with mustaches who didn't shave their legs. My friend always wondered how they could all have children, be comically unattractive, and still end up in positions where they earned two hundred and three hundred thousand dollars a year.

Of course, it's difficult to discuss femininity and masculinity without stepping on someone's toes. But I can say that, despite their utter lack of superficial femininity, these women were kind, empathetic, nurturing...they really were "sweethearts." They had to be: they raised their siblings and did all the housework while their mother was chain-smoking in the basement.

So, yeah...Caitlyn claimed the thing she looked forward to most about being a woman was painting her nails. And I don't know what to say to that.

Congratulations...?













[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 7:20 PM. Reason : sss]

7/17/2015 6:54:45 PM

Well she obviously couldn't have said menstruating or having an abortion. I say she gets a pass.

7/17/2015 6:57:56 PM

And that's what I'm saying.

7/17/2015 7:06:30 PM

I identify as a golden retreiver

7/17/2015 7:42:08 PM

^^^You're making my point for me.

Why don't we come up with a list of issues that most women, not all, but most, go through at some point their lives, and see if we can apply that to Bruce.

- Menstrual cramps. Nope, pretty sure he's never had a period.
- Less pay for the same work. I can almost guarantee, that adjusting for inflation, he's made more off of endorsements than women with similar olympic medals. So nope, knock this one off the list.
- Motherhood. I would pay a shit ton of money to see this one happen.
- Female related health problems, such as yeast infections, frequent UTI's, etc. I guess he could get thrush in his mouth, so technically he could have a yeast infection, so we'll give him that one. His plumbing isn't wired to where he would get UTI's easily though.
- Uncomfortable papsmears. Nope, let's cross that one off too.

I'm sure there are many more issues that women go through that he got to fast forward due to his 50+ years as a male.

He's not a woman. Quit calling him a woman.

7/17/2015 7:54:14 PM

Should a trans woman be able to run with the biological women in the Olympics????

7/17/2015 8:02:46 PM

I honestly don't know who Bruce Jenner is/was, and I don't care to look it up.

7/17/2015 8:04:59 PM

http://i.imgur.com/PHcMDXZ.webm

[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 8:14 PM. Reason : TWW doesn't support gifv]

7/17/2015 8:13:44 PM

RAWR RAWR ITS A MENTAL DISORDER

7/17/2015 8:20:30 PM

Quote :

"- Menstrual cramps. Nope, pretty sure he's never had a period."

so? Some women never ovulate or menstruate. Are they not women?

Quote :

"- Less pay for the same work. I can almost guarantee, that adjusting for inflation, he's made more off of endorsements than women with similar olympic medals. So nope, knock this one off the list."

Doesn't apply because she's rich as fuck anyway.

Quote :

"- Motherhood. I would pay a shit ton of money to see this one happen."

She's already procreated. She may not have given birth, but she has kids. Are barren women who have to adopt no longer women?

Quote :

"- Female related health problems, such as yeast infections, frequent UTI's, etc. I guess he could get thrush in his mouth, so technically he could have a yeast infection, so we'll give him that one. His plumbing isn't wired to where he would get UTI's easily though."

You're really reaching hard with this one. Men can get UTIs too.

Quote :

"- Uncomfortable papsmears. Nope, let's cross that one off too."

Pretty sure all those psychotherapy sessions and awkward doctor's visits asking for female hormones makes up for this. But that's just a guess.






[Edited on July 17, 2015 at 8:40 PM. Reason : .]

7/17/2015 8:36:16 PM