Im already tired of my server.

rolling a new alt on the next new pvp server.

5/16/2006 11:30:28 AM

Quote :

" if by broken you mean a class that actually has multiple viable specs, has great survivability with fear, death coil, seduce, possibilty of insane HP for a caster, can eat buffs and when decently geared can 2-3 shot anything in the game then yea sure theyre broken "

As I noted, only good locks really know how broken the class is.

To debunk some of the stuff you said:

1) We can either have extremely high Stam or extremely high +dmg. To gain high hp and damage requires the very best gear in the game and is pretty much outside the realm of possiblity for most players. Even then, a warlock will never approach the burst dps of a mage, especially now with the rework. Sure, we'll still two shot people but so do hunters and mages(prepatch).

2) PvP survivability is situational dependant.

One of the reasons Blizzard can't really fix the Affliction tree is because making it raid viable would also make it insanely powerful in pvp. This is one of the reasons that the class is currently severely broken.

Speaking of talents, have you ever used and seen a benefit from:

CoW
CoEx
Imp CoEx
CoD
Imp SpellStone
Imp Firestone
Any firestone
Imp Drain Life (which doesn't really work)
Imp Firebolt (second rank of which doesnt work)
Unholy power (lol)
Imp Fel intellect (yay, more mana for pets that don't do anything in pve)
Imp Drain Mana (lol)
Imp VoidWalker(LOLOLOLOL)
Aftermath
Pyroclasm
Intensity

If you say yes to any of the above, please not the situations that actually made use of these talents. They have to be real, not theorycraft and they most definitely should be PvE oriented.

The debuffs we actually use often in game, CoR, CoS and CoE have no talent points to improve their ability. Some of the other talents listed here require 5 talent points to reach their dismal conclusion.

Furthermore, Warlocks have no threat reduction unless we spec for it or get the 8 peice nemesis bonus. Going for MD either means no instant corruption or no Ruin. Two talents required for PvP viability. Getting either of these also means that a warlocks dps will most definitely drop below that of DS/Ruin or SM/Ruin locks that alread have a bit of a tough time keeping up with geared mages.

But hey, we can spec SL and be master duelists though.

[Edited on May 16, 2006 at 12:27 PM. Reason : .]

5/16/2006 12:27:07 PM

hunters can 2 shot mages.

warlocks have too much hp to 2 shot and everyone else has too much armor.

If you want to talk about worthless talents and worthless abilites, how about everything related to hunter pets.


or that we only have 2 viable specs.

warlocks dont need anything but nerfs

5/16/2006 12:57:20 PM

hunters can 2-shot priests who they catch without PW:S

5/16/2006 2:09:26 PM

Ever since they added whatever makes hunter's pets big, red and immune to fear no hunter should be losing to a priest.

5/16/2006 2:11:44 PM

yeah... no hunter that is willing to put 31 points into Beast mastery... which gimps you in a raid... so any hunter that only PvPs.

5/16/2006 2:14:34 PM

yea because we should put 31 points into the BM tree so we can maybe kill a priest every 2 minutes and be worthless for everything else.

5/16/2006 2:17:17 PM

anyone having problems getting in?

5/16/2006 2:23:09 PM

get to authenticating, then it says it can't connect... same shit that started last night

5/16/2006 2:48:19 PM

ya they broke them again. but fixed them about 20 minutes ago. shuold be working now

5/16/2006 3:25:37 PM

I know absolutely nothing about hunter talents but it sure seems like the majority of alliance hunters on Mal'Ganis are specced 31 into BM to me.

I really have no sympathy for anyone complaining about worthless talents considering how bad non-shadow priest talents were until recently.

5/16/2006 5:36:39 PM

What?

You got your review and got hit with a massive buff bat across all talents.

We got our review and they made Demonology work when it was broken to the point of nonfunction.

Furthermore, a priests main role is healing, buffing, and cleansing. Tasks they did fine before the review. A warlocks main roll is debuffs, tasks we do without the aide of any talent points since our affliction tree doesn't improve anything useful.

5/16/2006 8:59:03 PM

5/16/2006 9:17:43 PM

^im glad you said it

5/16/2006 10:25:54 PM

porcha how ya'll doing on cthun ?

5/16/2006 10:31:28 PM

We'll let you know Sunday.

5/16/2006 10:53:24 PM

nevermind

[Edited on May 16, 2006 at 11:02 PM. Reason : .]

5/16/2006 10:54:24 PM

are they ever going to fix vanish properly? or do a full on rogue evaluation? as everyone else gets their talents looked over, it's looking increasingly difficult to down them in pvp.

5/17/2006 12:18:23 PM

Didn't rogues already get a talent/ability nerf review?

5/17/2006 12:21:07 PM

they broke vanish, that's about it

5/17/2006 12:55:08 PM

Quote :

"Furthermore, a priests main role is healing, buffing, and cleansing. "

The priest review actually nerfed our ability to cleanse >_<

5/17/2006 1:10:11 PM

Quote :

"Didn't rogues already get a talent/ability nerf review?"

no they didnt. rogues are last after shamans and mages

5/17/2006 3:39:22 PM

Quote :

"Didn't rogues already get a talent/ability nerf review? "

....


Not even hardly.

They fixed a problem with the game mechanics that weren't using the correct formula for applying attack power to backstab and ambush. And then people bitched on the PTR about it and they changed one of our talents that increased the damage of special attacks to exclude ambush.

The problems with the rogue class aren't really talents. Sure we have some that make absolutely no sense (throwing weapon spec, wtf), and some that aren't worth nearly how high they are placed in the tree. But we have several viable builds that you can use.

Our problem is that our class description is highest single target dps at the cost of survivability and utlity. That was fine when the game first came out but now after almost every class has had a dps buff other classes are infringing on our territory at the top of the damage meters while they still maintain their utility and survivability. Hunters are doing the same damage from range with mail armor , pets and their buffs.

We also have skills that are totally useless and one of skills doesn't scale with gear at all. My Eviscerate damage is the same now with 13 epics and 900ap as it was at level 56 with 490ap.

I would post more but I'm on my way out the door.

5/17/2006 4:42:25 PM

eviscerate BLOWS...with skills and talents and gear, i crit almost every other hit...even moreso with backstab and SS...it seems that eviscerate never crits unless i burn cold blood, and even then, feels like a waste of engergy that i could have had more backstab crits. with this in mind, my spec makes me out to be a hypocrite. everything ive got works towards critting to get more combo points to get big damage on eviscerate. im golden until the last step...and i have no control over that. i critted a backstab on a warrior with shield wall for 600+ dmg...then when i had 5 CP, i critted an eviscerate for 68 dmg...thats just retarded. and yes...id say 40% of our talents are useless, or not cost effective to GET to. we must get the talent overhaul next, or else im going to lvl my druid and retire the rogue. its just not fun playing it anymore.

5/17/2006 5:29:24 PM

who cares

5/17/2006 5:29:33 PM

Quote :

"it's looking increasingly difficult to down them in pvp."

it should be painfully easy at all times.

5/17/2006 6:01:16 PM

evis does blow yes

5/17/2006 6:09:46 PM

what's an effective way to use backstab? It uses up too much energy to stun/stab repeatedly

5/17/2006 6:14:34 PM

if you're grinding using backstab. you're going to hate your life. and the onyl way to use backstab is to stab repeatedly.

5/17/2006 6:39:59 PM

Is anyone part of a guild on Shattered Hand???? MY guild was disbanded and I am looking for a new guild.

5/17/2006 6:46:49 PM

Quote :

"what's an effective way to use backstab? It uses up too much energy to stun/stab repeatedly"

If you are leveling you should be using swords. Daggers really aren't effective enough to use at the lower levels. My usual combo when farming is CS-BS-wait for 120-KS-BS-BS. If you use energy watch and time it right you can get 2 backstabs off before the stun wears off.

5/17/2006 7:51:27 PM

go swords

5/18/2006 12:43:47 AM

mass guild break down on shattered hand lately.

5/18/2006 8:59:22 AM

I want things like "detect traps" and "disarm traps" to not be 100% useless when hunters can fucking flop and trap instantly throwing the trap right on me. I mean what the FUCK can I do against that? When a hunter does that I can't even see the trap going down. I think there ought to be a talent where we get a boost to ranged attack dodge like casts and arrows, because once someone hits us with fireball/pyroblast (whichever has the dot), wyvern sting or concuss/scatter shot + serpent sting, all those fucking warlock dots that you don't even have to face me to apply which is fucking bullshit, it's really over for me. Also, I think its really bullshit that a warrior gets to hit me for like 300+ everytime I dodge an attack. Without evasion I dodge 30+% of the time, how can I help that?

/rant

Quote :

"Even then, a warlock will never approach the burst dps of a mage, especially now with the rework."

Check out anomaly on alleria. 3-4k shadowbolt crits. I've yet to see a mage do that. Then again, I haven't seen a raiding fire mage.

5/18/2006 10:38:58 AM

5/18/2006 10:40:50 AM

so i had a duel with a shaman yesterday, which was stupid because i suck ass at PvP.

he of course won, but the fight took forever(fucking totem kiter). can you not interrupt their healing with a kick?? I kicked him like 3 times and saw the yellow damage for the kick but his healing went off every time.

5/18/2006 11:02:40 AM

yes the kick should stop the healing unless he used his natures swiftness or something or you were just lagged and it went off too late.

5/18/2006 11:05:08 AM

you lagged and it went off to late. welcome to the life of a rogue

5/18/2006 11:20:37 AM

oh well

ive got my ass handed to me by a warlock and a shaman now

im hoping to run the enitre range soon enough.

5/18/2006 11:22:46 AM

on a happier note. got deathdealer shoulders and helm last night

5/18/2006 11:27:41 AM

I'm terrible at pvp now that I had to respec for raiding
On the plus side, with all but a few pieces of my gear being blues I'm #4 on the charts applying with a guild of all bwl/aq epic geared players.

5/18/2006 11:29:56 AM

Quote :

"mass guild break down on shattered hand lately."

that's my old server - what happened - bous and i used to be in purge late 2004/early 2005

5/18/2006 12:08:16 PM

Quote :

"I want things like "detect traps" and "disarm traps" to not be 100% useless when hunters can fucking flop and trap instantly throwing the trap right on me. I mean what the FUCK can I do against that? When a hunter does that I can't even see the trap going down. I think there ought to be a talent where we get a boost to ranged attack dodge like casts and arrows, because once someone hits us with fireball/pyroblast (whichever has the dot), wyvern sting or concuss/scatter shot + serpent sting, all those fucking warlock dots that you don't even have to face me to apply which is fucking bullshit, it's really over for me. Also, I think its really bullshit that a warrior gets to hit me for like 300+ everytime I dodge an attack. Without evasion I dodge 30+% of the time, how can I help that?"

hunters just pwn rogues. its that simple.

the key is to assume their is a trap down and stealth around until you find it and disarm it.

never engage a hunter unless you get the first hit. stunlocking is key.

we do have to face you to fire a scatter shot, so stay behind us.

if you get scatter shotted and trapped, then try and get away. we can get to range, bandage, hunters mark you and fire an aimed shot before the traps wears off and you get to us. so run away. burn that fast running speed.

if you get serpent stinged, then run. it only lasts a few seconds and the 550 damage (from rank 9 AQ book) will not kill you. use any part of the terrain that you can to break line of sight. it takes 3 seconds to fire an aimed shot. get behind a tree or down a hill or something. use line of sight to wait out the serpent sting until you can stealth again.

if you get hunters marked you really dont have many options against a hunter. the mark lasts a long time as you prolly already know

if you are in battlegrounds, try and engage hunters that are already low on mana. all of our abilities aside from white damage autoshot are mana dependant.



there is only one rogue on medivh that i have fought many many times in battlegrounds and never killed. i consider myself very good in pvp, especially against rogues. every time, he always gets the first hit, stunlocks me takes half my health away, dances with me then stunlocks me again and finishes me off. most of the time i never even hit him once.

do a warcraftmovies search for oozo and watch some of his videos. its pretty sick, i bet i am even in some of them getting pwnt.

5/18/2006 12:46:16 PM

haha... i suck at PvP and i've beaten Oozo a couple of times

But yeah... the easy way to take a hunter is to wait for him to attack someone else so you can ensure you are gonna get the jump on him.

There is nothing more ominous for a hunter than seeing the trap you just laid disappear from behind you and realizing what is about to happen just an instant too late.

also:

Quote :

"Our problem is that our class description is highest single target dps at the cost of survivability and utlity. That was fine when the game first came out but now after almost every class has had a dps buff other classes are infringing on our territory at the top of the damage meters while they still maintain their utility and survivability. Hunters are doing the same damage from range with mail armor , pets and their buffs."

If you are being beaten on the damage meter by a hunter, you suck at being a rogue. Just reroll now.

[Edited on May 18, 2006 at 1:08 PM. Reason : with even gear a hunter should come nowhere close to a rogue's damage output.]

5/18/2006 1:05:25 PM

Quote :

"I want things like "detect traps" and "disarm traps" to not be 100% useless when hunters can fucking flop and trap instantly throwing the trap right on me. I mean what the FUCK can I do against that? When a hunter does that I can't even see the trap going down. I think there ought to be a talent where we get a boost to ranged attack dodge like casts and arrows, because once someone hits us with fireball/pyroblast (whichever has the dot), wyvern sting or concuss/scatter shot + serpent sting, all those fucking warlock dots that you don't even have to face me to apply which is fucking bullshit, it's really over for me. Also, I think its really bullshit that a warrior gets to hit me for like 300+ everytime I dodge an attack. Without evasion I dodge 30+% of the time, how can I help that?"

As someone who has lots of experience dueling rogues as a warrior, and just killing a 60 rogue multiple times with my 56 warlock (she just never learned)... here are a couple thoughts on your comments.

Warriors:

1. Stunlock is key. You're never going to be able to flat out go toe to toe with a warrior. Period. Way too much health, way too much armor, and with a good 2 hander (or decent fury gear) they can almost match your dps point for point. If you can keep them stunned you can take them out easily. Overpower for a warrior (that ability that allows them to hit you when you dodge) is one of the few defences against rogues. With improved overpower I know I had >75% chance to crit. Using a weapon like the doomsaw that's easily over 300 damage. My brother played a 60 rogue and he and I would duel against each other all the time. It was pretty even most of the time, whoever would get the crits would usually win. There are a few tricks warriors have to break stuns but most of them are on a cooldown. If I really wanted to slaughter him I'd use retaliation and get a free attack for every one of his. With a 60 dps 2 hand weapon I could match the speed of a dual weilding dagger rogue. That was fun... but I digress... stunlock is key for fighting warriors.

Warlocks:

2. When dueling warlocks it really depends on the pet. If you can't see a pet, assume they have a succubus out. Now, you can't really stunlock when they have a succubus since they'll just seduce you wait for the stun to wear off and you're now fucked. What you can do however is sap the warlock, blitz the succubus and then try to stunlock the warlock after you've taken care of his pet. Whether or not that's feasable with energy constrains or not really depends on how fast you can take out the pet. If they have the felhunter out, they'll probably see you coming because of paranoia. If you don't get feared right off the bat, you'll probably get deathcoiled as soon as they're able to get an instant off, then feared, then come the dots. Now the thing about warlock dots is the "t" part of the equation. No, you can't vanish (since you're going to take damage) but you still have that time to get to the warlock and try to kill the cloth wearer... that should be easy for a rogue right... just a little ol' cloth wearer... There are so many different builds of warlocks it'd be impossible to go over how to beat each one, especially since you don't know what build your target is before you attack. Basically the key, like any fight with a rogue, is stunlock. If they have a pet just sap them and take the pet out then deal with them at your leisure. Warlocks are one of the toughest 1v1 classes in the game though so have your pvp trinket ready to break the fear. Deathcoil is unbreakable though so you're kinda screwed for those 3 seconds.

[Edited on May 18, 2006 at 1:19 PM. Reason : sp]

5/18/2006 1:17:26 PM

If I survive long enough to pop off Death Coil, most rogues are finished.

This is 1v1, of course. More than one opponent ranges from difficult to impossible for me at the moment.

5/18/2006 1:27:47 PM

Quote :

"Check out anomaly on alleria. 3-4k shadowbolt crits. I've yet to see a mage do that. Then again, I haven't seen a raiding fire mage."

I don't how much Shrike crits for, but he does it so often that even with all my DoTs, Shadowburning, buffs and 2k-3k SB crits I still couldn't close the gap on him in AQ40. The one time I did get close, I pulled aggro and died instantly.

If the other mages in our guild weren't lazy, afk, and all around terrible they could probably do the amount of damage as him.

5/18/2006 1:30:13 PM

Quote :

"1. Stunlock is key. You're never going to be able to flat out go toe to toe with a warrior. Period. Way too much health, way too much armor, and with a good 2 hander (or decent fury gear) they can almost match your dps point for point. If you can keep them stunned you can take them out easily. Overpower for a warrior (that ability that allows them to hit you when you dodge) is one of the few defences against rogues. With improved overpower I know I had >75% chance to crit. Using a weapon like the doomsaw that's easily over 300 damage. My brother played a 60 rogue and he and I would duel against each other all the time. It was pretty even most of the time, whoever would get the crits would usually win. There are a few tricks warriors have to break stuns but most of them are on a cooldown. If I really wanted to slaughter him I'd use retaliation and get a free attack for every one of his. With a 60 dps 2 hand weapon I could match the speed of a dual weilding dagger rogue. That was fun... but I digress... stunlock is key for fighting warriors."

Stunlock is half of the way to beating a warrior. You will not be able to keep a warrior stunlocked for entire duration of the fight (unless you utilize vanish). Soon as I see a rogue vanish, I hit whirlwind and usually catch that rogue 50% of the time.

Rogues need to utilize the deadzone in order to beat warriors, deadzone = too far for melee dps and too close for intercept. Using deadzone will help you avoid overpower hits. Another way to avoid overpower is to time your gouge, soon as u see warrior switch to battle stance, gouge. Don't ever gouge warriors in zerker stance, they can zerker rage out of it. My overpower with enrage crits rogues for about 1500 (Ashkandi).

5/18/2006 1:39:15 PM

yea i will admit rogues (unless they pop all cooldowns) are pretty much ez mode for us warriors with a decent 2h

5/18/2006 1:56:39 PM

^ High Warlord's 2h sword is ugly as hell. I'd use the 2h axe or dual 1h axe with fury.

5/18/2006 2:00:06 PM