anecdotes are not statistics. I'm sure you know people who had their reasons. doesn't mean that convenience and not wanting to deal with the consequences weren't factors

2/17/2012 2:36:07 PM

Here's a statistic for you aaronburro: 100% of abortion cases are none of your fucking business.

2/17/2012 2:37:21 PM

^oh i like that one.

2/17/2012 2:37:52 PM

too bad that statistic is 100% false. DOH

^ of course you do. because otherwise would require you to put your money where your mouth is. give me stats on how many abortions are performed that are 100% medically necessary or the result of rape. show me how those abortions completely outnumber elective abortions performed merely for the purpose of not dealing with a child.

[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 2:39 PM. Reason : ]

2/17/2012 2:38:36 PM

Quote :

"Here's a statistic for you aaronburro: 100% of abortion cases are none of your fucking business."

2/17/2012 2:41:13 PM

^

2/17/2012 2:41:58 PM

you can manipulate statistics to show whatever you want to in this situation. or in any situation for that matter.

so, no, actually i won't provide you those statistics. you're one of those people who don't change their minds no matter what "evidence" is brought to them.

do you think that women fill out a questionnaire about why they're going to have an abortion before they do?

you have deemed abortions to be out of pure laziness in 90% of cases and that's really fine for you to say, but until you have actually be in the situation having to deal with the ramifications of this, then shut your mouth. \]

2/17/2012 2:44:45 PM

Quote :

"so, no, actually i won't provide you those statistics."

then shut the hell up and get out, because you, too, are not actually interested in supporting your claims. I've specifically seen statistics, numerous times, from pro-abortion camps, that put the number of elective abortions at around 85-90%.

Quote :

"do you think that women fill out a questionnaire about why they're going to have an abortion before they do?"

every time? of course not. do you think that such studies have never been done? might wanna break out google if you do.

Quote :

"you have deemed abortions to be out of pure laziness"

no, I don't go that deep. as far as I'll go is "convenience", and even that is stretching it for me.

Quote :

"but until you have actually be in the situation having to deal with the ramifications of this, then shut your mouth. "

Until you're in the situation of ever having to fight off an attacker, shut your mouth about whether or not self-defense should be legal. Until you are in the situation of almost being murdered, you shut your mouth about whether murder should be legal. makes about as much sense.

2/17/2012 2:49:31 PM

Convenience: The state of being able to proceed with something with little effort or difficulty.

Lazy: Characterized by lack of effort or activity.

2/17/2012 2:54:19 PM

Quote :

"if only it were that black and white, sure. Now you have to get into what, specifically, counts as "killing your children." Simple "inaction" is a slippery slope you don't want to get on. And, given that this "inaction" is still followed with other action that they believe will help, shouldn't count against them. Yeah, you and I think it's hogwash, but it's their belief, and they *are* trying something, it's just not what you would have them do. Sorry, I'm not gonna mandate that you go against your religious beliefs, and that's just how it is."

Here's the root of the problem. You think praying is "trying something." Duke, if you're out there, this is the damage that religion has done to mankind.

Quote :

"Actually, show me where any medical literature says what a person is. I think you'll find that they don't do that whatsoever. Instead, they come up with some information that you then use to declare what makes a person. We are both, in effect, doing the same thing, and neither one of us is supported in any way by medical literature."

I'll admit that the topic is a bit more nuanced than I was suggesting in medical literature. A big part of why this is is that the naturalistic conclusion indicates that there is no such thing as a soul and doctors generally aren't willing to go there yet.

Quote :

"Well, what would you call it? ignore the question of personhood, what would you call it when someone doesn't want to have a child because she would have to change her life? What would you call it when someone doesn't want to actually face the consequences of their actions and would rather take the road that allows them not to face those consequences? Keep in mind, I'm talking about the general case of abortion, not the exception of medical problems and/or rape. Keep in mind "I don't think I can do this" is identical to "I don't want to do this" at the point where you put it into action."

I call it mercy. I call it recognizing that the potential child that this zygote may possibly grow into will be unwanted and neglected. I respect women for making that decision and respect them even more for coming back later when they are capable and having children. To me, they are facing the consequences of their actions head on.

Quote :

"No, execution arrived at through due process is not murder, specifically because there was due process."

Oh, because the government says it's ok means it's ok?

Quote :

"that's because you are pushing into the limits of the idea of a soul,"

And there we have it. In one breath you say that we can only talk about what we know really exists and in the next you say you're not willing to do so because it intrudes on crap you can't prove exists. Once again, a point is not convenient to your preconceptions so it is ignored or declared absurd by fiat.

The sooner you conclude that you're nothing but your physical being the better off we'll all be.

Quote :

"I mean, IIRC, you said that the mother should be able to terminate the pregnancy any time up until the child is physically separated from her. is that right? if so, should she be able to give birth and bash the child's skull in with a shovel, so long as the umbilical is still attached? the fact is, there is a line there somewhere, and you are fine with being on the right side of it, I'd rather err on the left. But if we could find that line, we'd probably both be in perfect agreement. Neither of us knows what that line is, so we define some metrics to try and get as close to our gut feelings about it. Yours is consciousness, mine is life. agree to disagree. but I'd say that bashing a child's skull in with a shovel simply because it's still attached to the mother is absurd"

This is actually a really good point. I'm not certain that severing the umbilical cord against a woman's will is actually impinging on her bodily rights. At some point that umbilical cord is the baby right? I'll admit that this needs to be explored in my philosophy.

Quote :

"Here's a statistic for you aaronburro: 100% of abortion cases are none of your fucking business."

lol

[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 3:11 PM. Reason : .]

2/17/2012 3:09:50 PM

Quote :

"Here's the root of the problem. You think praying is "trying something." Duke, if you're out there, this is the damage that religion has done to mankind."

I'm not saying that it's effective. But, to them, it is trying something. Just like, to you going to the doctor is trying something. Are you saying that people should be forced to take the most effective solution, their own wishes be damned? Sorry, I don't roll that way.

Quote :

"I'll admit that the topic is a bit more nuanced than I was suggesting in medical literature. A big part of why this is is that the naturalistic conclusion indicates that there is no such thing as a soul and doctors generally aren't willing to go there yet."

We agree on something, hot daaaaaaaaamn, common ground!

Quote :

"Oh, because the government says it's ok means it's ok?"

no, not at all. just because the gov't did it, doesn't mean due process was followed. we've seen that plenty of times.

Quote :

"To me, they are facing the consequences of their actions head on."

Yeah, by avoiding the actual effects of their actions. wait, what?

Quote :

"I call it mercy. I call it recognizing that the potential child that this zygote may possibly grow into will be unwanted and neglected."

I can understand that. But you are now assuming that this zygote's is going to have the worst life ever. That there will be absolutely zero good to come from this zygote's existence. I think that's as stupid as assuming the zygote will have the best life ever.

Quote :

"And there we have it. In one breath you say that we can only talk about what we know really exists and in the next you say you're not willing to do so because it intrudes on crap you can't prove exists."

No, I'm not going to talk about the soul, which is where you seem to want to go, because that is leaps and bounds more difficult to quantify than the existence of a clump of cells.

Quote :

"This is actually a really good point. I'm not certain that severing the umbilical cord against a woman's will is actually impinging on her bodily rights. At some point that umbilical cord is the baby right? I'll admit that this needs to be explored in my philosophy."

No, I've gone further than this. I'm saying, should the MOTHER be allowed to bash the child's skull in with a shovel when the child is outside of her yet while the umbilical cord is stil attached

2/17/2012 3:16:21 PM

Quote :

"I'm not saying that it's effective. But, to them, it is trying something. Just like, to you going to the doctor is trying something. Are you saying that people should be forced to take the most effective solution, their own wishes be damned? Sorry, I don't roll that way."

Nuance. Trying something pointless isn't trying something. It's worse than not trying something because it impedes sane people from trying something sane. Yes, I am OK with declaring that magic is not a substitute for medicine.

Quote :

"Yeah, by avoiding the actual effects of their actions. wait, what?"

The abortion and everything that goes along with it (like dealing with you and your ilk) are part of the 'actual effects of their actions.'

Quote :

"I can understand that. But you are now assuming that this zygote's is going to have the worst life ever. That there will be absolutely zero good to come from this zygote's existence. I think that's as stupid as assuming the zygote will have the best life ever."

I think the mother has the penultimate say on this matter. I'll defer to her judgment on her situation.

Quote :

"No, I'm not going to talk about the soul, which is where you seem to want to go, because that is leaps and bounds more difficult to quantify than the existence of a clump of cells."

I think the word you were looking for was 'impossible' instead of 'difficult because it there is no indication that it actually exists.

Quote :

"No, I've gone further than this. I'm saying, should the MOTHER be allowed to bash the child's skull in with a shovel when the child is outside of her yet while the umbilical cord is stil attached"

And I'm saying that's not necessarily consistent with my philosophy. If there was a way to transport a baby out of a woman's stomach with absolutely no physical impact on her I'd be more inclined to draw the line much earlier than birth. But just being attached by the umbilical cord is separate enough for me because the baby is no longer medically contingent on the mother being there and you can cut the cord without any effect on the mother because that part of the cord is the baby and not the mother.

For the record I don't think a woman should be allowed to bash a newborn's skull in with a shovel while the cord is still attached. Just to be clear. But you would apparently be fine with her letting it die of some illness as long as she prays or something.

[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 3:31 PM. Reason : .]

2/17/2012 3:31:09 PM

Quote :

"from pro-abortion camps"

long ago I learned to never take people that use this term seriously

2/17/2012 4:11:13 PM

We should simply start calling "anti-abortion" people what they really are: "anti-woman"

2/17/2012 4:12:59 PM

complaining about which is the correct pc term for your side is pretty terrible, tbqh

2/17/2012 4:13:00 PM

I'm pretty sure calling a spade a spade is the opposite of PC

2/17/2012 4:15:31 PM

its pro-abortion or anti-abortion. pro-choice and pro-life are terrible marketing terms

2/17/2012 4:16:29 PM

Who's complaining about terminology now?

2/17/2012 4:21:54 PM

nobody is pro-abortion

nobody thinks, "gee golly, abortions sound fun. I'm way into that"

2/17/2012 4:22:49 PM

Mandatory abortions for EVERYONE

[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 4:26 PM. Reason : .]

2/17/2012 4:25:45 PM

I'm pro-abortion. I wish a lot more people had abortions.

[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 4:33 PM. Reason : not to say that the act of abortion isn't emotionally difficult]

2/17/2012 4:27:09 PM

^

2/17/2012 4:28:00 PM

Quote :

"nobody is pro-abortion"

if you think that abortions should be allowed, then you are pro-abortion. Sorry, you can't polish that turd any better than that. try to dress it up as "pro-choice," which doesn't sound as bad, but pro-abortion literally means you are in favour of it being legal.

2/17/2012 5:47:56 PM

I thought I'd put my shoes on and get out of the kitchen for a minute and see what y'all are up to in here.

Pro-abortion here!

Quote :

"elective abortions performed merely for the purpose of not dealing with a child"

So what's wrong with elective abortions? What's so noble about having a kid when I don't want it, don't have money to take care of it, don't want to undergo the physical trauma of being pregnant and birthing it, and am actively trying not get pregnant by using hormonal birth control?

Some people would want to keep it. That's great. I know a lot of people who love their surprise children. But count me out right now.

[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 6:16 PM. Reason : Sluts can't keep their knees together, I guess]

2/17/2012 6:13:35 PM

well, what is noble about trying to escape responsibility for your actions, my dear?

2/17/2012 6:22:52 PM

^^
Let me save you some time. aaronburro thinks abortion is murder, literally, and there is no room for argument.

2/17/2012 6:37:25 PM

I took responsibility for my actions when I realized that pursuing intimate adult relationships could result in a pregnancy and chose to use birth control. I would continue to take responsibility for my actions when voluntarily terminating a pregnancy. I will take responsibility for making that difficult and emotional decision and I'm willing to bear the consequences of that, whatever they may be.

I would make the same decision if I were married. Should married adults also not pursue physical intimacy with each other?

Or is pro-creative sex the only sex that should happen, regardless of the situation?

[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 6:38 PM. Reason : ^Truth :/]

2/17/2012 6:37:45 PM

aaronburro and his ilk would rather you deny being human vis-a-vis abstain from having sex and the catastrophic consequences from that (in)action be damned. Nevermind that birth control is not infallible.

2/17/2012 6:45:48 PM

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

2/17/2012 7:02:30 PM

I don;t think such a thing is necessary or specific to fascism. I think the times in which fascism was most prevalent, those tendencies were more pronounced, so they played themselves out naturally in fascism as well.

Quote :

"I took responsibility for my actions when I realized that pursuing intimate adult relationships could result in a pregnancy and chose to use birth control."

Which I think is acceptable, and is the way it should be. You are, before the action, saying you understand its consequences and are trying to mitigate them, as opposed to not giving a shit about it and then trying to deal with it after the fact.

[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 7:10 PM. Reason : ]

2/17/2012 7:10:10 PM

^

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 7:14 PM. Reason : teh]

2/17/2012 7:13:31 PM

do you think I am incapable of googling to find the entire list?


much of that list, though, is not specific to fascism. Rather, it's something that can be expected from any authoritaian gov't. not sure what point you are trying to make.

[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 7:21 PM. Reason : ]

2/17/2012 7:16:43 PM

aaranburro, dude.....you're a Republican politician's wet-dream. You have a knee-jerk reaction to emotional issues and can't be persuaded by reason.

Radical issues are brought up by the tea-party wing of the Republican party, and you have a Pavlovian response to these issues, while being completely blind to the fact that these issues are being brought up and timed to coordinate with elections. You think abortion is even a big issue right now? Is there a pandemic of abortions going on that is causing a threat to our existence?

Or is it more likely that this fringe social issue is being brought up to paralyze you, an unemployed Republican who has certainly been affected by the economic climate, so that you'll vote against your own best interests?

2/17/2012 7:20:42 PM

the irony here, is that I'm less likely to vote on the abortion issue than I am to vote on foreign policy matters. In fact, I generally eschew socially conservative candidates, as they tend to piss me off. Look around here and see if you can find me saying anything nice about Rick Santorum or Rick Perry. Aint gonna happen.

doesn't mean that the issue isn't being brought up to rile up others, but it surely isn't working on me. Besides, a mention of the recent ultrasound bill in Virginia, I think, was posted elsewhere on TWW, and you'd probably be surprised at my response: I didn't like the proposal.

2/17/2012 7:22:54 PM

you're being hoodwinked, dawg

2/17/2012 7:22:57 PM

yes, I'm being hoodwinked by specifically not liking the socially conservative message

2/17/2012 7:24:37 PM

you're a rank-and-file republican, dude.

once every four years, you get super pissy about abortion, welfare, and affirmative action.

[Edited on February 17, 2012 at 7:30 PM. Reason : ]

2/17/2012 7:30:37 PM

try again. I'm not down with much of what the current republican party represents, especially it's insistence on bombing every muslim it can find. that, alone, puts me almost completely out of the party.

2/17/2012 7:33:37 PM

Oh yes. That's correct. You're a unique and delicate snowflake. A nuanced, and principled political activist, who only comes to his positions after sound, reasoned, and careful deliberation.

You never rush to an opinion without first examining all the evidence and facts.

Sorry, I must have had you confused with someone else.

2/17/2012 7:36:40 PM

list what you think the republican platform is, and we'll see how I compare, dude

2/17/2012 7:41:32 PM

No taxes.

No regulations.

No safety nets.

No abortions.

No gays.

No Muslims.

2/17/2012 7:48:40 PM

Now, let's hear all about how unique your positions are.

2/17/2012 7:54:43 PM

No taxes. false

No regulations. false

No safety nets. false

No abortions. false

No gays. false

No Muslims. false



damn, you pretty well failed that completely, didnt you

2/17/2012 8:09:08 PM

what's false about that? Are those not Republican priorities?

Because, when it comes to legislation they've proposed, that's pretty much exactly where they stand.

2/17/2012 8:17:26 PM

if you think that abortions should not be allowed, then you are pro-oppression. Sorry, you can't polish that turd any better than that. try to dress it up as "pro-life," which doesn't sound as bad, but pro-oppression literally means you are in favor of oppressing women.

Arguing definitions and labels is fucking stupid. People identify themselves however they want.

2/17/2012 8:24:22 PM

^it's worse than that.

Forcing a women to have a transvaginal ultrasound is a violation of her body. I think people need to consider how this procedure is performed.

2/17/2012 8:26:54 PM

Quote :

"what's false about that? Are those not Republican priorities?"

those are certainly republican priorities, for the most part. and you won't find me supporting them, at least not in those simplistic terms. I'm not against all taxes. I'm not against muslims or gays. I'm not against all abortions. And I'm not against all safety nets or regulations. Sorry if I didn't make that perfectly clear.

Quote :

"if you think that abortions should not be allowed, then you are pro-oppression."

Let's see... one statement says if you want abortions allowed, then you are pro abortions. It uses the same word in both places. The other doesn't. Not the same.

Quote :

"Forcing a women to have a transvaginal ultrasound is a violation of her body."

And I completely agree. did I just blow your mind?

2/17/2012 8:31:23 PM

so then you oppose the Virginia bill that will require ultrasounds before abortions?

2/17/2012 8:37:20 PM

oh, fuck yes. they wanna shove something into a woman's vagina, regardless of whether she wants it or not? fuck that! in any other context, we'd call that sexual assault

2/17/2012 8:38:09 PM

cool, then we're in agreement on something. high five

2/17/2012 8:41:34 PM