I can play that too. Poor people use more public transit, food stamps, free education, govt assistance, high crime requiring more law enforcement, etc.

Poor people use more dollars of govt money, so shouldnt they pay more?

10/3/2011 2:23:46 PM

^See folks, THAT'S what class warfare looks like. Let's take away EVERYTHING the poor have so the rich can have a TINY bit more.

10/3/2011 2:31:49 PM

Interesting tidbit:

Quote :

" In 1916, the entire debt could have been paid off by the richest man in the country, John D. Rockefeller. Today, the country's two richest men, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, could combine every penny they have and not cover three months of the national debt."

doesn't mean much (except maybe to say that out of control gov spending, not individual wealth is the problem), but interesting nonetheless.

10/3/2011 2:32:11 PM

Quote :

"You people are completely missing the fucking point. There isn't a single rich person who created their wealth in a vacuum. Everyone single one of them NEEDED the government to get them there. Transportation infrastructure, the internet, security, mail, education for their employees, all the major things that make any business possible are provided by the government. The rich take more from our "wasteful and bloated" government than any poor person ever could. It's common fucking sense that they should also be the ones to pay the most. Again you're not looking at the big picture and are just retreading the same tired talking points. Quote : " And you are wrong about the American Dream. Its called the Land of Opportunity because THAT is what all people want. The capability to be wealthy, and I think that exists. " Sure, it exists, for maybe 0.01% of the population. For the rest of us, it's exactly like I said, a complete and total fantasy. Most people are thinking "how am I going to afford my next tank of gas" not "how am I going to make my first $1 million"."

Hey got a couple questions:

define: "rich person"
define: "vacuum"
define: "NEEDED the govt"
define: "maybe 0.01%"
define: "complete and total fantasy"

no sir. i don't think about how i am going to afford my next tank of gas. it's called go learn a skill that is in demand and get paid for it.

also if you can't afford gas you should never have bought the car to begin with dumbass. go bum rides or ride the bus or live next to your job. BUT IM SURE NOBODY IN THIS FORUM OF FORD F350 COUNTRY REDNECK HICK FAGGOTS WILL RELATE TO ANY OF THAT OR GIVE UP YOUR PRECIOUS TRUCK

10/3/2011 2:32:36 PM

Yeah, this bullshit perpetuated by Elizabeth Warren is really making the rounds now. "You're nothing without us." Problem is, "us" is conflated with the state.

Business owners actually pay a lot more into the system than any poor person could. They have to pay to have things shipped from place to place, meaning they pay more gasoline taxes and more taxes in general. This idea that we have to take from the rich until they have nothing left, simply because they supposedly signed some non-existent social contract, should be offensive to anyone.

With that said, the government shouldn't be just...giving money to people. It's doing that now. Shrike has defended the bailouts. You don't get to defend the bailouts and then talk about how bad "the rich" are. The power brokers told us (the people) that we would be devastated without the bailouts. Now we have zombie banks making money hand over fist, and I'm sure more bailouts will be "necessary to save the financial system."

Let's not save the financial system. The financial system isn't working for you.

10/3/2011 2:34:54 PM

if i can't afford gas i get clever and go buy a fucking electric car. i get up and get out of bed and make the fucking life i want. i have a drive to do so and you assholes trying to take from people with initiative in life have been born with an inferior set of genetic make up and shouldn't be alive to procreate your jealous nonsense on to the rest of the human gene pool.


[Edited on October 3, 2011 at 2:39 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2011 2:36:49 PM

the lefties don't really care about the poor anyways; don't buy that argument.

entitlement programs for the poor haven't worked. the poor aren't getting richer because of government handouts. the level of poverty has actually increased since welfare was installed.
higher taxes aren't about helping these people. it's about empowering a massive government to further control the people and to demonize anyone that is successful in order to persuade the population to remain stupid and under government control.

10/3/2011 2:40:27 PM

^ yup. The worst thing to happen to poor people is social welfare programs. They cause dependency for generations, and this is evident today. The government wants the poor to be dependent on them

10/3/2011 2:45:40 PM

Quote :

" This idea that we have to take from the rich until they have nothing left, simply because they supposedly signed some non-existent social contract, should be offensive to anyone."

Who in the world is advocating this? Even when the top marginal tax rate was NINTEY PERCENT, the rich were still rich, were they not? Since dropping that rate to ~30-35%, the wealth of the average rich person has exploded, while the middle class has basically flatlined (and actually regressed the past 10 years) and the number of poor has spiked considerably, yet you're still arguing these same stupid talking points. You're acting like going from 35% to 40% is going to murder the rich in this country. It's total lunacy.

The bottom line is that Reaganomics, cutting taxes to create jobs, trickle down economics, or whatever you want to call it COMPLETELY FUCKING FAILED. Yet, despite flying in the face of every single set of economic data from the past 30-50 years, you people are still advocating these completely failed policies. WAKE THE FUCK UP.

[Edited on October 3, 2011 at 2:53 PM. Reason : :]

10/3/2011 2:52:37 PM

I think what the reasonable people are saying is that by itself, raising taxes on the rich isn't gonna solve the country's problems. In fact, every rich person could give all their money to the gov't and that wouldn't solve the problem, because the gov't would find new ways to spend the fuck out of that money instead of use it to pay the debts.

Social programs cause a major dependence upon the government for generations, why would you need to get up off your ass and look for a job if the gov't is going to give you money for being unemployed?

The rich didn't get rich by getting a check from the gov't, they got rich by being motivated, getting off their asses, and getting that money. And I'm not gonna fucking lie, I would love to be rich like that, and I'm gonna try to make that happen and the only person who can stop me is me.

10/3/2011 2:58:54 PM

10/3/2011 3:01:59 PM

Let me tell you about being poor and welfare queens from my experience being a middle class white male with an engineering/csc degree.

Quote :

"The rich didn't get rich by getting a check from the gov't, they got rich by being motivated, getting off their asses, and getting that money. And I'm not gonna fucking lie, I would love to be rich like that, and I'm gonna try to make that happen and the only person who can stop me is me."

Yeah good thing you haven't had to depend on public education, Tony Robbins.

[Edited on October 3, 2011 at 3:13 PM. Reason : x]

10/3/2011 3:04:25 PM

Quote :

"Even when the top marginal tax rate was NINTEY PERCENT, the rich were still rich, were they not? "

haha, ah the deceit of the left. tell me, how many people were in that "90%" rate and how many people actually paid a "90%" rate?



[Edited on October 3, 2011 at 3:37 PM. Reason : the silence is deafening]

10/3/2011 3:11:46 PM

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

Quote :

"Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr. Demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors. Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment. Demand four: Free college education. Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand. Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now. Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants. Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment. Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live. Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system. Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period. Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies. Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union. These demands will create so many jobs it will be completely impossible to fill them without an open borders policy. Lloyd J Hart 508-687-9153 "

10/3/2011 6:45:48 PM

When I am King...

10/3/2011 6:59:35 PM

^^Christ, that thing is littered with more economic fallacies than I care to post about. Vague populist anger rarely translates well to actual solutions.

10/3/2011 7:13:11 PM

Quote :

"The problem is, that person should have never been making $40 million a year in the first place. It's like winning the fucking lottery. It's a fantasy, and unobtainable for 99.9% of the population of this country"

...but...it's not class warfare.

Right? That's what you said just a few lines above that.

Quote :

"Sure, it exists, for maybe 0.01% of the population. For the rest of us, it's exactly like I said, a complete and total fantasy. Most people are thinking "how am I going to afford my next tank of gas" not "how am I going to make my first $1 million". "

I am but a simple jarhead, so the American dream must be very alive and well, despite your assertions, for I am not only not concerned with affording my next tank of gas, but I am thinking about how I will make both my first million as well as my second million, and maybe another one or two after that. Just think, a military man, son of two people who spent not a day of college between then and lived in a single-wide trailer until just before he was born, striking it "rich", well into the top 0.01%.

10/3/2011 7:31:33 PM

Quote :

"They have to pay to have things shipped from place to place, meaning they pay more gasoline taxes and more taxes in general."

Just one quibble, they don't pay that. We pay that when we purchase their goods.

10/3/2011 7:37:47 PM

At first I thought the people were nuts. Now that I see their demands I stand corrected, they're fucking insane.

10/3/2011 7:47:26 PM

Ahaha the protesters' list of demands looks like some bullshit that I'd type up just to fuck with you guys...except I'd pull back a bit to avoid being an obvious troll.

10/3/2011 7:52:14 PM

They def should have toned those down a little

Quote :

"but I am thinking about how I will make both my first million as well as my second million, and maybe another one or two after that"

omg bloated government!!!!!!

10/3/2011 8:34:16 PM

haha, wow. fucking insane.

#OccupyLoonyBin

10/3/2011 8:39:53 PM

I am starting to feel like people who advocate for redistribution of wealth and government handouts don't know how to make money for themselves.

Or maybe they have, and realized it was too hard to do on their own volition.

[Edited on October 3, 2011 at 8:49 PM. Reason : words]

10/3/2011 8:43:23 PM

I saw Pupils DiL8t post this stuff as a part of the first official statement:

Quote :

"They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them. They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility."

But I don't see this in their demands that Matt posted. I hope the diminish the big-money-special-interest control of our elected officials doesn't fade away from their goals. I mean they started with such a massive laundry list of objectives that I get that they had to narrow it down somewhere. But that was one of their few nonpartisan goals that seemed like it could potentially get bipartisan support (even McCain is a fan of that!).

Campaign finance reform, term limits, public campaign financing options, sunshine and disclosure laws, there are any number of options that could be pursued to various degrees to help turn politicians focus from special interest fundraising to getting stuff done that could potentially get more bipartisan support than trying to get more funds for their interests in this economy.

10/3/2011 8:54:57 PM

how come y'all are acting like that is some sort of official statement of demands by the leader of an organized group?

it's one post, by one person on an open forum on the internet.


[Edited on October 3, 2011 at 9:00 PM. Reason : stupids]

10/3/2011 8:59:59 PM

^Thats true.

Someone posted that on my FB, and I put it up here.

Does the occupy wall street have any "official" demands?

It's easy to say fuck the bull shit. It's hard to figure out what needs to be done next.

10/3/2011 9:11:16 PM

^^we hardly knew ye, ken.

it is a sad day now that #OccupyKensHouse will begin shortly for his disobedience.

10/3/2011 9:11:45 PM

^^ I agree that that list is ridiculously stupid. It's all over the place and has a bunch of social crap and seemingly random numbers thrown in there. Whoever posted that is an idiot.

My list would start off like this: repeal Citizens United. I think the people could get behind that.

[Edited on October 3, 2011 at 9:27 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2011 9:26:13 PM

I'd say get rid of unions.

10/3/2011 9:27:48 PM

^^^^^
This; however, the first official statement posted on page one is their first official statement.

10/3/2011 10:34:38 PM

Anyone else think starting a outdoor protest in the fall is not smart. It's gonna get chilly soon.

10/3/2011 10:36:11 PM

Hitler made the same mistake. That's right. These protesters are just like Hitler.

10/3/2011 11:20:56 PM

^^^Good to know that the part I mentioned is still there, thanks

10/3/2011 11:41:51 PM

I am a supporter of the overall movement but I do worry about some of these fringe and quite frankly very unrealistic demands. Hopefully general assemblies at each one will realize that too and weed that out.

10/4/2011 8:57:09 AM

Any time that you have to "hope" politicians do the right thing, you're pretty much fucked.

10/4/2011 10:11:18 AM

Quote :

"it's one post, by one person on an open forum on the internet."

bwhahahaha. seriously? and you qntmfred are just 'one poster' on a random 'college forum' on the internet with no sway here whatsoever.

everything you post is of no consequence or means a thing.


wait. maybe i'm right here. lol

10/4/2011 10:22:17 AM

Let me post what I said in another forum:

As a supporter of these demonstrations I will say there are a wide variety of views being expressed. Sure the media loves to jump on the lack of clear demands and/or grievances but in reality there are common threads. To brand this movement as just lazy communist hippies who don't want to work is just dumb. If you actually take a look at who is now showing up you will see it has extended beyond your "professional protester" demographic. The common threads I see are people have had it with the lack of say in a corporate owned government (yes even the democrats are owned, including Obama), Endless and useless wars at the cost of our future (for the profit of a few), and no accountability or indictments for the banksters etc. who tanked the economy our peril in the first place.

I would like to see as a start :Citizens United overturned, Absolutely no monetary/corporate influence allowed in government (and you shouldn't have to be rich to run for higher offices), and a real end to the wars. I would like to see innovation and investment in a sustainable and much more humanistic future.

10/4/2011 10:35:39 AM

i feel like this dude is out of place with his shirt and tie.

10/4/2011 10:53:54 AM

From an open letter on Reddit....I couldn't agree more.

Quote :

"I don't expect you to believe me. I want you to read this, take it with a grain of salt, and do the research yourself. You may not believe me, but I want your movement to succeed. From a former tea partier to you, young new rebels, there's some advice to prevent what happened to our now broken movement from happening to you. I don't agree with everything your movement does, but I sympathize with your cause and agree on our common enemy. You guys are very intelligent and I trust that you will take this in the spirit it is intended. I wish I could believe this Occupy Wall Street was still about (r)Evolution, but so far, all I am seeing is a painful rehash of how the government turned the pre-Presidential election tea party movement into the joke it is now. We were anarchists and ultra-libertarians, but above all we were peaceful. So, the media tried painting us as racists. But when that didn't work they tried to goad us into violence. When that failed, they killed our movement with money and false kindness from the theocratic arm of the Republican party. That killed our popular support. I am sharing these observations, so you guys know what's going on and can prevent the media from succeeding in painting you as violent slacker hippies rebelling without a cause, or from having the movement be hijacked by a bunch of corporatists seeking to twist the movement's original intentions. If you think this can't happen, it happened to the Independence Party and the tea party movement. Don't let it happen to your movement as well."

10/4/2011 11:07:34 AM

Quote :

"i feel like this dude is out of place with his shirt and tie."

it wouldn't hurt the cause if everyone dressed a little nicer

10/4/2011 11:11:54 AM

MLK insisted that the marchers wear their Sunday best.

10/4/2011 11:15:37 AM

Quote :

"...but...it's not class warfare. Right? That's what you said just a few lines above that. "

Pointing out that someone who pulls in $40 million a year is an aberration is hardly class warfare. Neither is saying that 400 individuals shouldn't have more combined wealth than 150 million other individuals, especially in a "first world" country. The problem is the scales are off. Is the CEO who pulls in that salary really a 1000 times smarter, harder working, or more motivated than one of his employees? Is it right that "financial engineers" (the great minds behind mortgage securities and credit default swaps) make 100 to a 1000 times more than the engineers who design our computers, bridges, and cars? Should lawyers be making $300,000 a year while teachers make $30,000 ? Again, I really don't think people who call taxation "unfair" or "class warfare" are looking at the big picture.

Quote :

"Just think, a military man, son of two people who spent not a day of college between then and lived in a single-wide trailer until just before he was born, striking it "rich", well into the top 0.01%."

Excellent, and all you had to do was risk your life defending the interests of those aforementioned CEOs (I know you're not naive enough to think it was anything else) to achieve that "dream". Good on you! You're also white, straight, and male, all things that have made your life significantly easier than a large percentage of the US population.

10/4/2011 11:59:39 AM

ah, the "you make too much money" argument. we should just have the government set wages for all jobs, right?

10/4/2011 1:14:19 PM

10/4/2011 1:31:25 PM

so many fucked up things in shrikes last post.

where to start?

10/4/2011 1:51:30 PM

Quote :

"http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/"

WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!

so many fucked up things in those demands...$20/hr min wage...that's equal to a $40,000 salary. guaranteed living wage regardless of employment. really...they want to be paid 40 grand a year to not work. what the fuck!!

10/4/2011 2:15:22 PM

Quote :

"Pointing out that someone who pulls in $40 million a year is an aberration is hardly class warfare. Neither is saying that 400 individuals shouldn't have more combined wealth than 150 million other individuals, especially in a "first world" country. The problem is the scales are off. Is the CEO who pulls in that salary really a 1000 times smarter, harder working, or more motivated than one of his employees? Is it right that "financial engineers" (the great minds behind mortgage securities and credit default swaps) make 100 to a 1000 times more than the engineers who design our computers, bridges, and cars? Should lawyers be making $300,000 a year while teachers make $30,000 ? Again, I really don't think people who call taxation "unfair" or "class warfare" are looking at the big picture."

You have supported the bank bailouts, so you're really not in a position to bitch about any of this.

I like what this protestor has to say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmPWcLQ1Mk

10/4/2011 2:18:18 PM

Shrike, why do you care how much a private industry pays their employees? Maybe teachers would be paid more if the federal government wasn't so involved... :shrug:

10/4/2011 2:29:40 PM

Quote :

"Maybe teachers would be paid more if the federal government wasn't so involved."

?

10/4/2011 2:49:37 PM

yeh, these guys know what they're talking about

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1198388202001/anti-wall-street-protest-spreading-across-us/?playlist_id=87485

10/4/2011 3:06:14 PM