Quote :

"homosexual people have to use them everyday too, do we currently have a problem with people getting beatup in bathrooms?"

No, but we do have a problem with homosexual children killing themselves due to bullying.

2/28/2013 11:12:22 AM

you think a student that has to go use a 3rd non-gender bathroom or go to the teachers office after lunch when everyone else is lining up to use the bathrooms will decrease how much they get picked on?

2/28/2013 11:25:52 AM

Another episode of failed parenting.

2/28/2013 11:54:03 AM

Quote :

"homosexual people have to use them everyday too, do we currently have a problem with people getting beatup in bathrooms?"

firstly, you're comparing children to adults

secondly, you're comparing homosexuality to transgenderism, one of which is quite a bit more outwardly visible

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 12:12 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 12:11:51 PM

Quote :

"How about, and this might seem radical, we let people define their own gender instead of trying to define it for them, from day 1."

Probably because children are generally unable to make decisions like that. We also don't allow children (within certain degrees of choice) to choose their own name, choose their own clothes, choose the foods they eat and any number of other choices we make for children until such time as they are old enough to make those decisions on their own.

That said, whenever these types of discussions pop up, whether they're in regards to transexuals in the bathroom or gays in the locker room, it always seems like everyone dances around the real question which is: "What is the purpose of gender/sex segregation in the bathroom and locker room?" Until that question is answered, everything else about what bathroom this kid should or shouldn't be allowed to use is entirely pointless.

2/28/2013 12:28:54 PM

Quote :

"What is the purpose of gender/sex segregation in the bathroom and locker room?"

The advent of modern toiletry precedes modern psychological understanding of gender identity and sexuality. Having separate toiletries are a result of turn of the century taboos regarding sexuality and sex organs. Also, male icky-ness regarding menstruation.

There's no actual reason to have separate bath/locker rooms except prudes from the last millennium. I'm cool with them remaining separate though so I don't have to wait in a god damned line to go to toilet.

2/28/2013 12:46:33 PM

Quote :

"Probably because children are generally unable to make decisions like that. "

The gender you feel is not up to you, it's not a decision any more than being gay is (it's not one at all). If a boy feels like a girl and says he identifies with that gender, the parent is the one doing harm and causing confusion if they try to tell them that's wrong or steer them otherwise. The "confusion" people like aaronburro alludes to is basically "How do I reconcile how I feel about my gender with what society says about the gender roles I should embody." It's not a problem that would occur in a society that doesn't press unreasonable, binary, or sex-deterministic gender roles.

Quote :

"What is the purpose of gender/sex segregation in the bathroom and locker room?" Until that question is answered, everything else about what bathroom this kid should or shouldn't be allowed to use is entirely pointless."

I can tell you it has exactly nothing to do with excretory systems, as any man can do his business in a woman's room and vice versa. It's an entirely social phenomenon, one that's not unique to the US but not universal either. Gender is another social phenomenon. When you tell a transgender person "No, you can't use the women's bathroom." you're essentially denying the validity of their transgenderism on entirely social grounds. For a child trying to come to grips with their transgenderism it's important that the people around them be supportive, not attacking it then citing bullshit reasons like "Men and women have different peeing parts therefor they need separate rooms each containing the same kind of toilet."

Quote :

"homosexual people have to use them everyday too, do we currently have a problem with people getting beatup in bathrooms?"

"This group that is frequently closeted due to social pressure, and can pass in public as a non-member, isn't commonly beat up in public places."

You don't say.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 1:03 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 12:52:49 PM

yeah, just stay in the closet and you'll be fine, damn homogay faggotranny queerios

:wat"

2/28/2013 1:08:53 PM

Quote :

"and then get the shit beaten out of her by the more boyish people with penes"

So is the problem actually bullying, and not what gender assignments bathrooms and individuals have? If that's the case, then are you implying that girls never engage in bullying if the solution is that the kid in question uses the girls' restroom?

Quote :

"Do you have a hard time urinating in toilets frequented by women? I don't understand your argument."

I don't, but plenty of folks seem to given anyone's experience with public toilets, not to mention that urinals certainly exist for a reason.

My argument is that if we're accepting the notion that gender is not necessarily tied to what physical organs someone has, then the question has to be on what basis are bathrooms segregated anyway other than cultural norm? Given that we've had mens' and womens' bathrooms for far longer than we've accepted the notion of gender and sex being separate I'm not going to buy gender/sex identification as an argument.

If it's a matter of comfort, plenty of folks are uncomfortable with using the bathroom if someone else is present in the room, they've historically had to tough it out. I imagine just about everyone here knew someone in who refused to take a shit at school, or had stage fright at the urinal.

I don't see a problem to solve here except preventing bullying, which I don't see as being any less likely with girls than boys, other than one is more likely to be physical than mental.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 1:54 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 1:35:29 PM

Quote :

"My argument is that if we're accepting the notion that gender is not necessarily tied to what physical organs someone has, then the question has to be on what basis are bathrooms segregated anyway other than cultural norm?"

It is cultural norm. There are plenty of cultures (even some within the US) that do no such segregation.

Quote :

"I don't, but plenty of folks seem to given anyone's experience with public toilets, not to mention that urinals certainly exist for a reason. "

The only reason they exist is so that men can pee without taking their pants off. It's a convenience, not a necessity, tailored to male anatomy.

Quote :

"Given that we've had mens' and womens' bathrooms for far longer than we've accepted the notion of gender and sex being separate I'm not going to buy that as an argument."

It's almost as though our bathroom setup was devised during a time when we thought gender and sex were inseparable, and it's now rather obsolete.

Quote :

"If it's a matter of comfort, plenty of folks are uncomfortable with using the bathroom if someone else is present in the room, they've historically had to tough it out."

I love how these "tough it out" arguments are always used against the transgenders, and never against the people who have hangups about transgenders using their bathrooms.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 1:44 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 1:40:24 PM

I edited my syntax above, I think i made it seem like i wasn't buying cultural norm as the argument, but that wasn't what i was trying to do.

Quote :

"I love how these "tough it out" arguments are always used against the transgenders, and never against the people who have hangups about transgenders using their bathrooms. "

valid point, but for me that part is assumed.



[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 1:54 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 1:52:25 PM

Remember when white people were uncomfortable with black people using the same bathrooms? Why couldn't we just keep that system? Why does it matter what bathroom they use?

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 1:55 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 1:54:50 PM

Since then all blacks-only urinals have been rebranded as being for short children.

2/28/2013 1:57:17 PM

^^ nice strawman

2/28/2013 2:01:43 PM

That wasn't a strawman. I was trying to get you to think about why a transgender person would want to use the same bathroom as their perceived sex.

2/28/2013 2:08:15 PM

Quote :

"The only reason they exist is so that men can pee without taking their pants off. It's a convenience, not a necessity, tailored to male anatomy."

Advanced urination techniques: you can pee standing up even when using a traditional toilet! Male privilege feels so good.

2/28/2013 2:11:36 PM

What locker room will this transgender person use when a teenager and which one should be used?

I know it's not the same question, but I think it raises similar points when it comes to the privacy and comfort of others who use the same facility.

2/28/2013 2:12:13 PM

^ that's part 2 of the story when he/she gets to middle school, and will be when the shit really hits the fan. At least with bathrooms the business gets done inside the stalls anyway.

2/28/2013 2:15:09 PM

Quote :

"Advanced urination techniques: you can pee standing up even when using a traditional toilet! Male privilege feels so good."

True but thanks to nagging broads and their feminazi double standards* men have to expend seconds upon seconds moving the seat from the up- to down-position.


[* Disclaimer: The expectation that men lift the seat and put it down, and many other similar double standards men whine about, is actually not a result of feminism, but a relic of patriarchal chivalry, which imposes on men the expectation to serve and accommodate women as though they were children or mentally handicapped, as a consequence of their supposed inferiority in intelligence and temperament]


[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 2:18 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 2:17:53 PM

Quote :

"What locker room will this transgender person use when a teenager and which one should be used?"

I would hope whatever one they identify with.

Quote :

"I know it's not the same question, but I think it raises similar points when it comes to the privacy and comfort of others who use the same facility."

Well, those folks with those concerns need to examine their views on sex and gender then. If women, for instance, are scared of actual, literal penises, then it's understandable they not want transgendered folk in their locker rooms. If they're scared of male-gendered people, then there's no problem.


[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 2:21 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 2:20:31 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but one can be both a transgender/identify as a girl and still want to keep your penis and sleep with women, right? Seriously, clarify for me, it's not something I'm particularly up to date on or well versed with. And again, just identifying as female gender doesn't in any way also identify sexual orientation, right?

I would think this would be a considerable issue in a high school locker room or bathroom if this is the case.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 2:26 PM. Reason : sdfsdf]

2/28/2013 2:25:14 PM

Quote :

"Correct me if I'm wrong here, but one can be both a transgender/identify as a girl and still want to keep your penis and sleep with women, right? Seriously, clarify for me, it's not something I'm particularly up to date on or well versed with. And again, just identifying as female gender doesn't in any way also identify sexual orientation, right? I would think this would be a considerable issue in a high school locker room or bathroom if this is the case."

Why? Gay people don't use different locker rooms or bathrooms.

agree with post below this

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 2:32 PM. Reason : yes to your first question]

2/28/2013 2:27:29 PM

That's definitely an option, and I can definitely see the the issue "I'm afraid I'll get leered at!"...but we don't forbid homosexuals from using the same locker room as heterosexuals of the same sex. If you are being leered at without your consent, that's sexual harassment, and the offender, regardless of their gender and sexual orientation, should be punished. People who don't sexually harass you should not be punished by being sent to another locker room. Pretty simple.

Really, the ideal solution imho is to end bathroom (and locker room!) segregation altogether. It reinforces binary gender roles (as made obvious by these conflicts when you try to introduce trans folks) and is probably responsible for most of the hangups that these conflicts end up violating.


[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 2:31 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 2:30:34 PM

^^^well they let cisgender gay guys and lesbians change in the locker rooms with people of the same sex...

Quote :

"Correct me if I'm wrong here, but one can be both a transgender/identify as a girl"

trans girl/woman (depending on age)

Quote :

"and still want to keep your penis"

non-op (although classification by operational status is sometimes considered offensive)

Quote :

"and sleep with women, right?"

that's a trans lesbian, who probably doesn't want to screw women the way a cis guy would, and depending on the level of hormone-replacement therapy may not be able to

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 2:35 PM. Reason : ^^ and ^ win the thread

2/28/2013 2:34:41 PM

Yeah, I'd be fine with unisex bathrooms and locker rooms, but doing that in high school is just a bad idea considering about 90% of the population is straight. Allowing a straight, transgender male in the women's locker room sounds like a great way to end up with sexual assault. It happens in current locker rooms as is, you start mixing sexes amongst teenagers and there's likely to be more of it.

It would be great if we would actually teach comprehensive sex ed, let kids be who and what they are, and try to teach them to be healthy, but it's fucking hard. It's probably better and more of a realistic goal to try to keep them from having the opportunity to screw at school.

2/28/2013 2:38:57 PM

Being a straight male teen doesn't automatically you a secret serial rapist, I say this as a straight male former teen who has never raped anyone. And, frankly, that stereotype is really offensive but most non-feminists don't even seem to notice it, instead just taking it for granted.

Quote :

"It would be great if we would actually teach comprehensive sex ed, let kids be who and what they are, and try to teach them to be healthy, but it's fucking hard. It's probably better and more of a realistic goal to try to keep them from having the opportunity to screw at school."

Through a system that inculcates them with sexual hangups and reinforces any fears they might have about the male-rapist-stereotype? No thanks. Maybe demystifying the opposite sex a bit will actually temper some of these male teens so they wont be so prone to outbursts from sexual tension. Smelling a few girly turds might help too.


[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 2:45 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 2:40:51 PM

Also speaking as a straight male who has never raped anyone and never will, I can say that I would have been absolutely thrilled to be put in the girls locker room, just to look.

2/28/2013 2:48:14 PM

Let's take a step back here. This is a separate issue than unisex locker rooms in high schools, which I agree would have implementation issues.

Less than half of a percent of the population is transgender, and even less are transgender and gay. Have gay people caused problems by intermingling with straight people in locker rooms? No. So certainly you can't claim transgenders would.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 3:08 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 3:01:40 PM

Quote :

"Also speaking as a straight male who has never raped anyone and never will, I can say that I would have been absolutely thrilled to be put in the girls locker room, just to look."

Ditto.

Hell, I think I wanted to see just about every girl in my high school naked, even the fat ones. I never even considered raping anyone, but I sure did love me some boobs!

I do think a little more exposure to the opposite sex would be a net positive. However, in terms of legal culpability unisex locker rooms are a nonstarter. Shit, kids can't even point a finger gun in school without being expelled, how minimal would an indiscretion need to be in order for a school to get sued over something in the locker room or bathroom? I mean all it requires is for someone to be made to feel "uncomfortable" and you open yourself up to sexual harassment suits whether something happened or not.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 3:04 PM. Reason : sdgdfdg]

2/28/2013 3:03:46 PM

Quote :

"Allowing a straight, transgender male in the women's locker room sounds like a great way to end up with sexual assault."

but I thought transgender males were supposed to go into the men's locker room even though they were born female

2/28/2013 3:04:44 PM

Quote :

" Quagmire: Hey honey, why don't you turn around and show me the Lower East side? Transvestite: [in deep voice] Sure. Quagmire: WHOA! Transvestite! Back off! Wait a sec, pre-op or post-op? Transvestite: Pre-op. Quagmire: WHOA! Transvestite! Back off! [to the others] You're right. This place blows"

2/28/2013 3:07:47 PM

Quote :

"Except race really is just a social construct and completely superficial physically and mentally. Gender is a whole different story."

My point was that gender identity, apart from sex parts and hormones, IS a social construct.

Quote :

"How do you measure sexual orientation?"

Easy. If you want to fuck the same sex, then you're a homosexual. If you wanna bang the opposite sex, then you're a heterosexual.

So now you answer my question. What metric do you use to test gender?

2/28/2013 4:52:06 PM

Quote :

"My point was that gender identity, apart from sex parts and hormones, IS a social construct. "

I'll actually agree with you to a point. Gender ROLES are socially constructed. Genders themselves, however, originate from innate sexual characteristics. There can only be masculine, feminine, or a combination of the two (third gender). You can be 100% male, 50% male, etc. etc.

Quote :

"Easy. If you want to fuck the same sex, then you're a homosexual. If you wanna bang the opposite sex, then you're a heterosexual."

lol, what? Do you not believe in bisexuality?

Quote :

"So now you answer my question. What metric do you use to test gender?"

The exact same way you "test" homosexuality. You ask the person if they identify as male, or female, or a mixture of the two.

2/28/2013 6:49:15 PM

this thread...wow. just wow. what is this, i don't even.

Quote :

"he advent of modern toiletry precedes modern psychological understanding of gender identity and sexuality. Having separate toiletries are a result of turn of the century taboos regarding sexuality and sex organs. Also, male icky-ness regarding menstruation. There's no actual reason to have separate bath/locker rooms except prudes from the last millennium."

Quote :

"Well, those folks with those concerns need to examine their views on sex and gender then. If women, for instance, are scared of actual, literal penises, then it's understandable they not want transgendered folk in their locker rooms. If they're scared of male-gendered people, then there's no problem."

Quote :

"I can tell you it has exactly nothing to do with excretory systems, as any man can do his business in a woman's room and vice versa. It's an entirely social phenomenon, one that's not unique to the US but not universal either. Gender is another social phenomenon. When you tell a transgender person "No, you can't use the women's bathroom." you're essentially denying the validity of their transgenderism on entirely social grounds. For a child trying to come to grips with their transgenderism it's important that the people around them be supportive, not attacking it then citing bullshit reasons like "Men and women have different peeing parts therefor they need separate rooms each containing the same kind of toilet.""

lol. i can hear you guys bitching now. "still separate BATHROOMS?!?! it's 2013! what the FUCK! to hell with those backwards-ass conservatives and their relics from the past!"

great idea, let's change around our ENTIRE idea of what is socially acceptable and naturally comfortable to people, just because a small subset of the population doesn't fall in line with gender/sexual norms. and yes, norms. i don't doubt these feelings come to transexual individuals naturally, but that doesn't warrant the rearranging of society (especially when adultswim admitted himself, "he may change his mind later, anyway")

there is zero reason to let this kid use the girls' room, especially if he was offered special bathroom priveleges already. talk about letting the tail wag the dog. ONE kid has issues with gender identification, and the only moral thing to do is let him use the bathroom with the "cigender" () girls, making a much larger number of people uncomfortable, as opposed to just one? and enough whining about "examining gender roles", not everyone agrees with your dumb ass, and regardless, we are talking about elementary school children that don't even know what sex is.

the kid is 6. he still has a dick. he can go to the stall and do whatever he needs to do with the rest of the males. come of age, have surgery, THEN we'll talk.

Quote :

"yeah, just stay in the closet and you'll be fine, damn homogay faggotranny queerios "

it's funny that the majority of the time, lewisje is the only person making these types of comments... repeatedly.

2/28/2013 7:02:06 PM

You're entitled to that opinion, but it will slowly become antiquated as people become more tolerant and teach their kids to be tolerant. We're heading that direction, might as well get over it now.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 7:09 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 7:08:35 PM

Quote :

"come of age, have surgery"

By then it's too late for the best results: If a transgender identity is clear, the best route consists of cross-gender expression in childhood, puberty-blockers in adolescence, and GCS at the age of majority; at any point up to GCS, treatment can be stopped with no permanent side-effects, and if transition starts after puberty, the ravages of testosterone or estrogen will require more-drastic measures, with less-passable results.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 7:27 PM. Reason : the bigots will never stop their quest to reverse societal progress

2/28/2013 7:26:52 PM

I doubt people are going to come that far. I have nothing against trans people (although I do think it is a bit silly considering gender roles are cultural anyways), but the idea that a 6 year old child comprehends the complex social gender roles and understands how they want to spend the rest of their lives within it is just plain retarded, and it certainly shouldn't dictate how we decide which child goes to what bathroom. Sexual and gender identity may be explored during childhood, but it's a decision an adult should ultimately make, not a child. I don't think any trans person will talk about how mentally damaged they were using the wrong gender's bathroom in their childhood, this kid is just being whiney and he should learn that he can identify himself however he wants but society isn't going to bend backwards to accommodate him, he'll need to learn it before he get's out into the real world.

2/28/2013 7:31:43 PM

Quote :

"The exact same way you "test" homosexuality. You ask the person if they identify as male, or female, or a mixture of the two."

How is that a test? Sexual attraction is an observable physiological condition.

Anyways, you didn't even answer the question. I asked for the metric you use. Do you know what a metric is?

Quote :

"lol, what? Do you not believe in bisexuality?"

Now you're just trolling. Should have figured not to take you seriously.

2/28/2013 7:32:37 PM

Quote :

"Females and males are mentally and physically different--it would be absurd to claim that they're not different, and don't have different tastes and behaviors."

Wanted to get back to this. I'm not claiming that males and females aren't different. I'm arguing that the preferences you talk about (dresses, dolls, etc) don't have anything to do with sex or even gender as far as I can tell.

My girlfriend likes sports, weightlifting, despises shopping (especially for clothes), and frequently mocks "girly" things. I don't like watching sports at all, I enjoy shopping, I like style/clothes, I don't give a shit about cars, I don't like watching fights, etc. I probably shouldn't be admitting this, but I went through a phase as a kid (I'm guessing 4-5 years old) where I liked playing with barbie dolls. My parents never took them away or said it was bad, I just kind of grew out of it.

With all of that said, me and my girlfriend might have some traits that are traditionally associated with masculinity or femininity, but I'm a male and she's a female. I have the body and the voice of a male. I have no innate sense of "gender". I know what I see in the mirror, I know what I like, but I simply don't find gender to be a very useful classification.

This is where I have an extremely tough time empathizing with those that identify as transgender, despite honest efforts: I can't wrap my head around "feeling" like a different gender. Gender just seems like a concept erected by culture, whereas sex is quite easy to determine. Saying "I feel like the other gender" is, in my view, the same as saying, "I feel like my preferences don't match up with the preferences that people around me are saying someone of my sex should have." The latter statement only has meaning as long as we're okay with the concept that certain sexes should behave in certain ways and like certain things. Problem is, the real world is rife with counterexamples, but we don't need to call everyone transgender. We can just say that they're a person, with rights and preferences, and that's that.

We should have unisex bathrooms.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 7:39 PM. Reason : ]

2/28/2013 7:34:46 PM

Quote :

"How is that a test? Sexual attraction is an observable physiological condition. Anyways, you didn't even answer the question. I asked for the metric you use. Do you know what a metric is? "

Do you know the difference between the words "qualitative" and "quantitative"?

There is not a "metric" to measure gender. There is not a "metric" to measure sexual orientation

If you want to be a girl, you're a girl. If you want to be a boy, you're a boy. You could also be somewhere in the middle (androgynous, transvestite, crossdresser).

Quote :

"Now you're just trolling. Should have figured not to take you seriously."

Here, educate yourself so you don't come across as a moron in the future:

http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

2/28/2013 7:56:20 PM

Quote :

"Wanted to get back to this. I'm not claiming that males and females aren't different. I'm arguing that the preferences you talk about (dresses, dolls, etc) don't have anything to do with sex or even gender as far as I can tell. My girlfriend likes sports, weightlifting, despises shopping (especially for clothes), and frequently mocks "girly" things. I don't like watching sports at all, I enjoy shopping, I like style/clothes, I don't give a shit about cars, I don't like watching fights, etc. I probably shouldn't be admitting this, but I went through a phase as a kid (I'm guessing 4-5 years old) where I liked playing with barbie dolls. My parents never took them away or said it was bad, I just kind of grew out of it. With all of that said, me and my girlfriend might have some traits that are traditionally associated with masculinity or femininity, but I'm a male and she's a female. I have the body and the voice of a male. I have no innate sense of "gender". I know what I see in the mirror, I know what I like, but I simply don't find gender to be a very useful classification. This is where I have an extremely tough time empathizing with those that identify as transgender, despite honest efforts: I can't wrap my head around "feeling" like a different gender. Gender just seems like a concept erected by culture, whereas sex is quite easy to determine. Saying "I feel like the other gender" is, in my view, the same as saying, "I feel like my preferences don't match up with the preferences that people around me are saying someone of my sex should have." The latter statement only has meaning as long as we're okay with the concept that certain sexes should behave in certain ways and like certain things"

I attempted to explain this a few posts up:

Quote :

"Gender ROLES are socially constructed. Genders themselves, however, originate from innate sexual characteristics. There can only be masculine, feminine, or a combination of the two (third gender). You can be 100% male, 50% male, etc. etc."

Check this out:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/gender.aspx

Quote :

"This isn't the view of Reiner and Gearhart though, who point to the findings of their study, published in the Jan. 22 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine (Vol. 350, No. 4). The study found that some infants whose brains were exposed to male hormones in utero later identified as male even though they were raised as female and underwent early-childhood operations. Reiner says that indicates that prenatal sex differentiation can at least sometimes trump social influences. The study followed 16 genetic males with a rare disorder called cloacal exstrophy. Children with this disorder are born without penises, or with very small ones, despite having normal male hormones, normal testes and XY-chromosome pairs. Fourteen of these children underwent early sex-reassignment surgery and were raised as girls by their parents, who were instructed not to inform them of their early medical histories. The researchers assessed the gender identities and behaviors of these children when they were anywhere from 5 to 16 years old using a battery of measures including the Bates Child Behavior and Attitude Questionnaire and the Child Game Participation Questionnaire. Researchers also asked the children whether they categorized themselves as boys or girls. Of the 14 children raised as females, three spontaneously declared they were male at the initial assessment. At the most recent follow-up, six identified as males, while three reported unclear gender identity or would not talk with researchers. The two participants raised as males from birth continued to identify as male throughout the study. All of the participants exhibited male-typical behavior, such as rough-and-tumble play and having many male friends. "If you are looking at the genetic and hormonal male, [sexual identity may be] not plastic at all," says Reiner. "And it appears to be primarily influenced by biology." Some researchers, such as Kenneth J. Zucker, PhD, a psychologist and the head of the child and adolescent gender identity clinic at Toronto's Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, applaud Reiner's study for renewing interest in the biological determinants of gender and calling into question the notion of some that gender identity is mainly socially constructed and determined by socialization. That's not to say, however, that socialization isn't still a major or important factor, Zucker emphasizes. "The debate is still up in the air because there are other centers who have studied kids with the same diagnosis, and the rate of changeover from female to male is nowhere near what Reiner is reporting," he explains. "It must be something about their social experience that is accounting for this difference.""

2/28/2013 8:02:17 PM

Quote :

"Sexual attraction is an observable physiological condition."

For some reason that reminded me of this thing that I saw discussed a lot in discussion of some of the most anti-gay politicians being exposed as gay or bi.

http://www.politicususa.com/proof-that-homophobia-is-associated-with-homosexual-arousal.html

Quote :

"The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies."

2/28/2013 8:06:12 PM

All of that seems really unlikely.

Quote :

"Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli."

I mean, there would have to be some heterosexual, non-homophobic dudes who had an increase in penile erection for the male homosexual stimuli.

Right?

Or do the results of the study really suggest that any/all straight dudes who have a boner for gay stuff are going to deny it and be homophobic...?

2/28/2013 8:13:38 PM

Quote :

"I mean, there would have to be some heterosexual, non-homophobic dudes who had an increase in penile erection for the male homosexual stimuli. Right? Or do the results of the study really suggest that any/all straight dudes who have a boner for gay stuff are going to deny it and be homophobic...?"

I think the point is that if you get a "boner for gay stuff", you're either gay/bisexual or gay/bisexual and in denial.

2/28/2013 8:20:00 PM

Quote :

"The gender you feel is not up to you, it's not a decision any more than being gay is (it's not one at all)."

It's as much of a decision as any other preference your child has until such time as they have an accurate understanding of the impact of those preferences. Whether your child likes vegetables or not isn't a choice, but we still make them eat them.

Quote :

"If a boy feels like a girl and says he identifies with that gender, the parent is the one doing harm and causing confusion if they try to tell them that's wrong or steer them otherwise."

And yet, no one says the same thing about my friends who steer their daughter away from her insistence that she's a dog, or a bumble bee. Just because a child identifies as or with something or believes they are something doesn't mean the parents should encourage that identification.

Quote :

"Gender is another social phenomenon. When you tell a transgender person "No, you can't use the women's bathroom." you're essentially denying the validity of their transgenderism on entirely social grounds. For a child trying to come to grips with their transgenderism it's important that the people around them be supportive, not attacking it then citing bullshit reasons like "Men and women have different peeing parts therefor they need separate rooms each containing the same kind of toilet.""

If gender is an "unreasonable" social construct, why isn't it valid to use it as the arbitrary restriction on another bullshit social phenomenon?

Quote :

"I doubt people are going to come that far. I have nothing against trans people (although I do think it is a bit silly considering gender roles are cultural anyways), but the idea that a 6 year old child comprehends the complex social gender roles and understands how they want to spend the rest of their lives within it is just plain retarded, and it certainly shouldn't dictate how we decide which child goes to what bathroom. Sexual and gender identity may be explored during childhood, but it's a decision an adult should ultimately make, not a child. I don't think any trans person will talk about how mentally damaged they were using the wrong gender's bathroom in their childhood, this kid is just being whiney and he should learn that he can identify himself however he wants but society isn't going to bend backwards to accommodate him, he'll need to learn it before he get's out into the real world."

Pretty much this.

2/28/2013 8:39:57 PM

^^I hear ya. But they're linking this to homophobia, not just the denial/unaware part.

Surely, there are guys in denial who aren't homophobic.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 8:52 PM. Reason : ]

2/28/2013 8:42:50 PM

Quote :

"This is where I have an extremely tough time empathizing with those that identify as transgender, despite honest efforts: I can't wrap my head around "feeling" like a different gender. Gender just seems like a concept erected by culture, whereas sex is quite easy to determine. Saying "I feel like the other gender" is, in my view, the same as saying, "I feel like my preferences don't match up with the preferences that people around me are saying someone of my sex should have." The latter statement only has meaning as long as we're okay with the concept that certain sexes should behave in certain ways and like certain things. Problem is, the real world is rife with counterexamples, but we don't need to call everyone transgender. We can just say that they're a person, with rights and preferences, and that's that. "

Exactly. I see no evidence of something that establishes "Gender" beyond social concepts and biology.

2/28/2013 8:49:56 PM

^
I just posted evidence, which you both ignored.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/gender.aspx

Quote :

""This isn't the view of Reiner and Gearhart though, who point to the findings of their study, published in the Jan. 22 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine (Vol. 350, No. 4). The study found that some infants whose brains were exposed to male hormones in utero later identified as male even though they were raised as female and underwent early-childhood operations. Reiner says that indicates that prenatal sex differentiation can at least sometimes trump social influences. The study followed 16 genetic males with a rare disorder called cloacal exstrophy. Children with this disorder are born without penises, or with very small ones, despite having normal male hormones, normal testes and XY-chromosome pairs. Fourteen of these children underwent early sex-reassignment surgery and were raised as girls by their parents, who were instructed not to inform them of their early medical histories. The researchers assessed the gender identities and behaviors of these children when they were anywhere from 5 to 16 years old using a battery of measures including the Bates Child Behavior and Attitude Questionnaire and the Child Game Participation Questionnaire. Researchers also asked the children whether they categorized themselves as boys or girls. Of the 14 children raised as females, three spontaneously declared they were male at the initial assessment. At the most recent follow-up, six identified as males, while three reported unclear gender identity or would not talk with researchers. The two participants raised as males from birth continued to identify as male throughout the study. All of the participants exhibited male-typical behavior, such as rough-and-tumble play and having many male friends. "If you are looking at the genetic and hormonal male, [sexual identity may be] not plastic at all," says Reiner. "And it appears to be primarily influenced by biology." Some researchers, such as Kenneth J. Zucker, PhD, a psychologist and the head of the child and adolescent gender identity clinic at Toronto's Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, applaud Reiner's study for renewing interest in the biological determinants of gender and calling into question the notion of some that gender identity is mainly socially constructed and determined by socialization. That's not to say, however, that socialization isn't still a major or important factor, Zucker emphasizes. "The debate is still up in the air because there are other centers who have studied kids with the same diagnosis, and the rate of changeover from female to male is nowhere near what Reiner is reporting," he explains. "It must be something about their social experience that is accounting for this difference."""

Quote :

"I see no evidence of something that establishes "Gender" beyond social concepts and biology."

this is no different than what i've been saying

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 9:02 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 8:59:50 PM

And more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 9:15 PM. Reason : .]

2/28/2013 9:01:50 PM

No, I read the study, but I didn't feel it addressed my point. I simply don't grasp the concept of "gender identity" or I don't understand the importance of it. If people could somehow be raised in the absence of cultural influences and language, what would it mean to "feel male" or "feel female"? Sex is (usually) easy; most people have a penis or a vagina. Sexuality also exists outside of "social constructs". No language was necessary for cave men and women to fuck other cave men and women.

Gender, on the other hand? This is purely a function of how people think they are perceived by others, which can't possibly be separated from culture. If people are identifying as male or female, they're using language to express those feelings and with that comes semantic baggage. What does it mean to be male or female? They only know what they've been taught.

2/28/2013 9:22:15 PM