Yeah, I have a hard time separating sex and gender. Transsexual I can at least understand, you don't feel comfortable in your body. Transgender seems like it's just an incredibly hard to pin down concept. Sooo, you don't feel comfortable conforming to the perception of what your body is?

I don't know, it's really hard for me to even conceive. Gay, straight, lesbian, bi... pretty easy. Man who feels like a woman, ok... kind of weird but I guess I can get it.

I guess I'd like to understand the difference between transsexual and transgender.

2/28/2013 9:28:27 PM

Quote :

"If people could somehow be raised in the absence of cultural influences and language, what would it mean to "feel male" or "feel female"?"

If there were no cultural influences and language, you would still have males and females. Males and females have innate mental traits (ex: males tend to be more aggressive, dominant, etc.). The amalgam of these traits forms the basis of the male and female genders. Obviously we have no concept of "male" and "female" from birth, but we understand where we fit in.

I get what you're saying, really. You're wondering why we need to define ourselves by a specific gender, and why we can't all just be "people". My answer is: I don't know. I think it's insulting to dismiss them outright because you don't understand that, though. They surely aren't lopping off their penises for no reason. Most humans have a strong desire to "belong". I'm sure that's part of it. Transsexuals don't feel like they belong anywhere. They can't change their behavior, so they change their appearance.

[Edited on February 28, 2013 at 9:42 PM. Reason : can't type good]

2/28/2013 9:37:25 PM

Sex is a real thing.

Gender is a social construct.

Make no mistake.

2/28/2013 9:41:25 PM

I don't dismiss them, I just don't get it nor have I ever really heard a good explanation. Again, this is not a topic I've delved into or know much about. The whole "gender as a social construct" I understand, the difference between genetic sex and sexual identity I get, but I don't understand the concept of transgender or gender identity issues.

2/28/2013 9:43:25 PM

Surprised this hasn't been posted in this thread yet. And of course there are those who don't fall on these spectrums, like asexuals.

2/28/2013 9:43:41 PM

^^
I got nothin else. I don't fully understand it either. It's a combination of biological and sociological factors. Maybe someone else can step in.

2/28/2013 9:54:56 PM

See, I don't get why you would ever have conflict between those first two bars there. Gender identity and gender expression, one of them is 100% within that individual's control, so any conflict is self-generated.

2/28/2013 10:05:15 PM

Calling yourself transgender is kind of like calling yourself Lumbee Indian. It doesn't really exist but if anyone disagrees you get to be horribly offended.

3/1/2013 12:52:25 AM

Quote :

" They surely aren't lopping off their penises for no reason. Most humans have a strong desire to "belong". I'm sure that's part of it. Transsexuals don't feel like they belong anywhere. They can't change their behavior, so they change their appearance."

He said he understood transsexuals. Its transgenders that don't make sense. BTW, I also read the study you cited. It was interesting, but not exactly relevant to what seemed to be your original point: that gender identity is some born-with aspect of the psyche, separate from physiology and social cues, that must be acknowledged. All I was saying is that there is no need to assign oneself a gender that isn't related to their sex or behavior.

3/1/2013 1:29:46 AM

When this kid shoots up his elementary school at age 11 or 12 from all the bullying he's received, all you people that are encouraging his behavior are going to come and tell me that my AR-15 is evil.

3/1/2013 7:23:15 AM

Quote :

"It was interesting, but not exactly relevant to what seemed to be your original point: that gender identity is some born-with aspect of the psyche, separate from physiology and social cues"

I've tried to explain this over and over. Gender identity is not a born-with aspect of the psyche. The psychological feminine and masculine TRAITS that result in your choice of gender are partly innate, and partly learned.

If you acknowledge that transsexuals exist, it's not a stretch to acknowledge that transgenders exist. You're holding them to a higher standard than you do normal people. They're acting like females because they see themselves as female and want to fit in and do things females do. As I said before, humans have a strong desire to belong, and can become severely depressed if they don't. Sure, it would be nice if we could abolish gender roles and do whatever we want, but not everyone has the willpower or desire to follow through on that. I'm sure there are other reasons that I'm not aware of.

3/1/2013 7:48:16 AM

Quote :

"See, I don't get why you would ever have conflict between those first two bars there. Gender identity and gender expression, one of them is 100% within that individual's control, so any conflict is self-generated."

I've wondered this as well. I'm not sure about your logic though. I just try to imagine someone with a M expression and a F identity. That's like a "cross-dresser" identity, and that just doesn't make any sense to me. That's not a "gender". How is somebody going to feel like they don't belong unless they feel like a man pretending to be a woman... even if they're a woman, or attracted to men.

If this is about respecting identity, then that's one thing those two bars definitely doesn't do.

3/1/2013 9:01:58 AM

Quote :

"You're holding them to a higher standard than you do normal people. They're acting like females because they see themselves as female and want to fit in and do things females do. As I said before, humans have a strong desire to belong, and can become severely depressed if they don't. Sure, it would be nice if we could abolish gender roles and do whatever we want, but not everyone has the willpower or desire to follow through on that. I'm sure there are other reasons that I'm not aware of."

That argument could be used to support transethnics, transabled, otherkins, demisexuals, or any of the other silly things you find in social justice blogs.

3/1/2013 1:41:54 PM

Quote :

"When this kid shoots up his elementary school at age 11 or 12 from all the bullying he's received, all you people that are encouraging his behavior are going to come and tell me that my AR-15 is evil."

I love how you're implying that she's to blame for the bullying, rather than the appropriate target which is parents who don't teach their kids to respect others even when they're difference.

Also I don't think anyone has ever implied a moral valence to certain firearms?

[Edited on March 1, 2013 at 1:55 PM. Reason : .]

3/1/2013 1:52:50 PM

The implied argument I like better is "assault rifles are ok because you can't stop bullying everywhere".

3/1/2013 1:56:11 PM

Quote :

"That argument could be used to support transethnics, transabled, otherkins, demisexuals, or any of the other silly things you find in social justice blogs."

Except hard-wired genetic feminine and masculine characteristics contribute to gender. The others are purely environment-based (although it could be argued that mental characteristics also sometimes contribute to people associating with those groups).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism

Regardless, none of this is even important. Why do you care what people choose to do, as long as it doesn't affect you? I used to be the same way, actually, before I realized it doesn't fucking matter. They're just looking for a place to fit in.

[Edited on March 1, 2013 at 2:46 PM. Reason : .]

3/1/2013 2:45:32 PM

Except in this case it obviously affects other people's kids. Grownups may be a different story, but in this situation the kid still does have male genitals that the girls can end up being exposed to. In addition, I am not convinced that at such young age kids can properly identify their long-term gender identity. What if in middle school s/he ends up getting a hard-on while looking at the naked girls in the locker room? How would that fit into his/her gender identity, and more importantly, what would that mean to the safety of the girls?

3/1/2013 2:53:53 PM

Quote :

"Why do you care what people choose to do, as long as it doesn't affect you?"

I don't. I've worked with trans people even during the trans and switched pronouns and all that, I don't mind in the slightest if that's what it takes to make them comfortable and it's just a matter of he instead of she or whatever, but when you're talking about changing bathrooms for a 6 year old as in the OP, it's a different story.

3/1/2013 2:59:25 PM

I argued that point two pages ago:

Quote :

"Less than half of a percent of the population is transgender, and even less are transgender and gay. Have gay people caused problems by intermingling with straight people in locker rooms? No. So certainly you can't claim transgenders would."

and if you're worried about this:

Quote :

"the kid still does have male genitals that the girls can end up being exposed to."

you should just keep your kids inside. kids are showing each other their junk all the time

3/1/2013 3:17:39 PM

Quote :

"Calling yourself transgender is kind of like calling yourself Lumbee Indian. It doesn't really exist but if anyone disagrees you get to be horribly offended."

but the Lumbee do exist

3/1/2013 4:10:11 PM

Quote :

"you should just keep your kids inside. kids are showing each other their junk all the time"

Hmm maybe a cultural difference. Certainly was not the case where I grew up. Maybe in the US it's normal.

Quote :

"Have gay people caused problems by intermingling with straight people in locker rooms? No. So certainly you can't claim transgenders would"

Gay people have same sex organs as the people the locker room is currently designated for, so gay people cause no discomfort to other people of the same sex unless it's a gay guy that suddenly gets a big boner while looking straight at ya. Having a kid or a teenager with a opposing set of sexual organs in the k-12 locker room is just asking for trouble (although having him/her dressed up like a girl in the boys locker room is not gonna be much easier on the kid either, although such decision would probably be welcomed by the parents of the girls)

3/1/2013 4:59:34 PM

prudes, sheesh. OMG, a 6 year old will see a 6-year old penis! The horror! I'd rather them come home and watch football or die hard.

3/2/2013 9:07:09 AM

this is ridiculous. what's happening is these hippy parents are confusing the hell out of their male child.

3/2/2013 9:49:01 AM

Quote :

"prudes, sheesh. OMG, a 6 year old will see a 6-year old penis! The horror! I'd rather them come home and watch football or die hard."

Maybe that fact in itself will not be problematic at the age of 6, but removing the taboo status of showing each other genitals MAY have undesired consequences downs the road in our society, like middle school kids blowing each other in the school's bathroom because it's normal and "everyone is doing it" Once kids hit puberty, sexual desire will jade their minds. You think allowing access to the other gender's private parts won't exasperate the issue?

I agree that violent movies should not be shown to a 6-year-old either, that's not why they are not a part of elementary school curriculum, and that's why government mandates a rating system that will generally classify them as unsuitable for young children via a PG-13 or an R rating.


[Edited on March 2, 2013 at 10:47 AM. Reason : .]

3/2/2013 10:42:28 AM

Quote :

"prudes, sheesh. OMG, a 6 year old will see a 6-year old penis! The horror! I'd rather them come home and watch football or die hard."

what in the fucking fuck is wrong with you? are you that out of touch with what is appropriate in our society that you will brush aside a boy, claming to be a girl, going into an elementary school girls' bathroom and letting a bunch of girls see his dick?

prudes? right.

3/2/2013 12:00:59 PM

Quote :

"You think allowing access to the other gender's private parts won't exasperate the issue?"

lol

3/2/2013 12:24:32 PM

we should wallpaper the locker rooms and bathrooms with penises and vaginas and everything in between so the children aren't forced into archaic binary gender roles designed by the oppressive patriarchy in order to subdue and rape women cisgendered and otherwise.

3/2/2013 12:29:36 PM

^^^^So you mean middle-school kids don't already blow each other in various places? I mean sure I was never part of it and don't know anyone who admitted to doing such a thing, but it's an outgrowth of pubertal sex drive rather than pre-pubertal permissiveness.

Quote :

"I guess I'd like to understand the difference between transsexual and transgender."

In general terms, transsexualism is a type of transgenderism.

The most expansive sense of the term "transsexual" (the one preferred by advocacy organizations) is the same as the most restrictive sense of the term "transgender": Having a definite sex assigned at birth (i.e., not intersex) and a gender identity in opposition.

More restrictive (and possibly pejorative) senses of "transsexual" involve operational status, like the desire to undergo hormonal or surgical treatment, or actually having undergone such treatment.

More expansive senses of "transgender" may include variant gender expression (as in part- or full-time crossdressing or possibly androgyny, but usually not drag or transvestic fetishism), intersex conditions, or intergender, bigender (the identity analogue to part-time crossdressing), agender/neutrois, or specific non-binary ("third") gender identity; I myself have trouble accepting those last two as legitimate, and advocacy organizations AFAIK prefer the sense that includes identity or expression not strictly in accordance with one's birth sex, and also intersex individuals because as a practical matter, their gender expressions are usually feminine or masculine and therefore not in accordance with their birth sex.

3/2/2013 1:05:12 PM

Quote :

"Regardless, none of this is even important. Why do you care what people choose to do, as long as it doesn't affect you? I used to be the same way, actually, before I realized it doesn't fucking matter. They're just looking for a place to fit in."

No ones arguing that they shouldn't have the right to self-determination. Gender-specific bathrooms, though, are not about gender "identity". They're separating penises from vaginas. Penises tend to be stronger than vaginas and sometimes those penises want to enter those vaginas, with or without permission.

That's not as much of a concern in the case of 6 year olds, but its probably necessary to extend the social contract to all ages. A unisex bathroom option would be the best solution.

When you compared gender "identity" to sexual "orientation", you changed the discussion. Sexual orientation is hard-wired and has a very specific definition: which sex are you physically attracted to? It doesn't necessarily effect the way you behave or the things you like. Some gay men choose to behave in ways that are very different from typical social norms, but their orientation is not forcing that behavior upon them. Gender identity is like that: people don't technically NEED to have a gender identity, just like how being gay doesn't force you to act like a flaming weirdo.

[Edited on March 3, 2013 at 11:17 AM. Reason : .]

3/3/2013 11:08:46 AM

Why don't we just have shared bathrooms like BATTLESTAR GALACTICA?

The whole concept of gender bathrooms seems based on everybody being heterosexual in the first place, right?

3/3/2013 12:18:05 PM

Cause that hottie doesn't appear so hot after you hear her drop a massive explosive load when she goes into the bathroom to "refresh herself"

/chit chat

3/3/2013 1:28:46 PM

I'm sure middle school girls aren't gonna want guys coming in and pissing all over their toilet seats. Guys will go in there and not lift the lid just for shits and giggles. As progressive as they sound, unisex bathrooms really aren't that great of an idea. For more reasons than just the one I cited. You also are gonna have insecure girls/women/librarians who are not gonna want guys pissing in the stall next door to them. And guys that get stage fright at urinals? They'll have a heart attack trying to go peepee with a female in their vicinity.

3/3/2013 4:53:58 PM

3/4/2013 11:48:01 AM

Quote :

"See, I don't get why you would ever have conflict between those first two bars there. Gender identity and gender expression, one of them is 100% within that individual's control, so any conflict is self-generated. "

Or generated by shame and fear.

3/4/2013 3:20:40 PM

^^Why does the difficulty of transgendered pronouns fall on the rest of the world? A much better approach is to just guess and the transgendered person should be understanding enough to specify which pronouns they would prefer.

3/4/2013 6:50:18 PM

^^^ "in short" ?

good grief this mess has been made ridiculously complicated.

[Edited on March 4, 2013 at 8:03 PM. Reason : also, what ^ said]

3/4/2013 8:02:52 PM

^^
I agree. You can't expect everyone to know all of this. Over-complicating it just annoys people.

3/4/2013 8:19:55 PM

Quote :

"For a child trying to come to grips with their transgenderism it's important that the people around them be supportive, not attacking it then citing bullshit reasons like "Men and women have different peeing parts therefor they need separate rooms each containing the same kind of toilet.""

Maybe it's more supportive to help a child cope with societal norms than just fucking ignoring them and making the child even more "different." Let's face it: being transgender probably won't be easy, and there's a lot of tough thing ahead. Taking a shit isn't that big of a deal, and it's a really small thing. That's why I think it's important to establish societal expectations on the simple things so that the person can focus on coping with bigger things. Seriously, of all the things a kid has to worry about, where they take a shit should be the least of their concerns. "Hey, you've got a dick, so you shit here." This isn't rocket science. Instead, we make this kid a bigger target for being attacked because he doesn't know which bathroom to use.

Quote :

"I love how these "tough it out" arguments are always used against the transgenders, and never against the people who have hangups about transgenders using their bathrooms. "

That's because "tough it out" is generally used against the person in the extreme minority of accepting basic social norms. The rest of society shouldn't bend over backwards to accommodate an incredibly small minority of people, especially over something so innocuous as where you shit.

Quote :

"this is ridiculous. what's happening is these hippy parents are confusing the hell out of their male child."

this. a thousand times, this!

3/4/2013 10:23:35 PM

welp, the courts have guaranteed that this child will be murdered before high school graduation. Good work!

6/24/2013 10:51:27 PM

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/transgender-1st-grade-girl-wins-bathroom-lawsuit/nYS5y/

Quote :

"This is the first ruling in the nation holding that transgender students must be allowed to use bathrooms that match who they are, and the most comprehensive ruling ever supporting the rights of transgender people to access bathrooms without harassment or discrimination.”"

6/24/2013 11:00:41 PM

Like I said: murdered before graduation. But it's worth it!

6/24/2013 11:02:56 PM

Quote :

"Like I said: murdered before graduation. But it's worth it!"

it's pretty much guaranteed that people will be murdered in battles for equality. hopefully not this girl. rest easy knowing that dipshits like you allow it to perpetuate.

6/24/2013 11:10:09 PM

Or, we could fight the battle in a sane way and not be mixing hormones in bathrooms and locker rooms just so one little kid doesn't have to feel uncomfortable all while making every other kid uncomfortable, thus setting up a witches brew of tension that ultimately leads to violence.

6/24/2013 11:12:32 PM

little kids don't have the same level of hormones as teenagers and this kid will be on hormone replacement therapy before she hits puberty. you are completely ignorant of how transgenderism works, yet you think your opinion matters.

your point about making every other kid uncomfortable is a fucking ridiculous assumption, and doesn't even matter in the first place. make them uncomfortable, good. exposure is the quickest path to acceptance.

6/24/2013 11:24:01 PM

Transgender Teen Voted Prom Queen At Middleboro High

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/05/31/transgender-teen-voted-prom-queen-at-middleboro-high/

6/24/2013 11:25:01 PM

yep. make everyone else need to adjust. makes perfect sense. That's a great way not to have the kid get murdered. I don't have to "understand" a damn thing to know that mixing sexes in the bathroom is a bad fucking idea, and that it would be much better for this kid to learn to cope with a society that thinks he/she/it/FSM is a fucking kook than making everyone else thing he/she/it/FSM is a fucking kook at the earliest age possible. But hey, as long as we get some good blood spilled over it, it'll all be worth it. There's no compelling interest on the part of schools to segregate sexes whatsoever in bathrooms


But sure, it's a ridiculous assumption that other girls will be uncomfortable around someone they perceive to be a boy in the girls' bathroom... But it's a perfectly fine assumption that someone who perceives himself to be a girl is uncomfortable around boys in the boys' bathroom. You do realize that those statements are mutually fucking exclusive, right?

[Edited on June 24, 2013 at 11:28 PM. Reason : ]

6/24/2013 11:26:58 PM

most people thought gay people were kooks 50 years ago. it blows my mind that you fail to see the connection.

6/24/2013 11:28:36 PM

Get back to me when gay people 50 years ago were asking to use different bathrooms

6/24/2013 11:29:14 PM

white people were uncomfortable with black people using the same toilets not too long ago. we should have left it that way.

6/24/2013 11:31:59 PM

If only there were a compelling interest in keeping whites and blacks separated in the bathroom, you might have a point. Instead, you insult the memory of those who actually fought injustice by even drawing a comparison between the two. Good work!

6/24/2013 11:34:43 PM