if your raid cant do .05% after he enrages then you fail

4/9/2008 7:04:22 PM

PVE transferable alliance goat mage with random purples and spellstrike/fire (is that shit even worth anything these days?)

I was able to find teh secret answer.

newpagecopy

4/9/2008 7:12:22 PM

so, i started playing a bit more again...

got into a good 25 man raiding guild with some friends. we go to TK tonight, i'm tanking on my paladin and i have the highest health in the raid, we go through the trash to void reaver and i get kicked for a warrior tank who had 2000 less health than i do.

fuck this game and the people who play it. two of my friends who are new too and probably top dps get kicked because it turns out there's a magical number of melee dps that you need for the fight, which is 2 melee dps. thanks for dragging us through the trash so you can bring in people who need the drops.

4/9/2008 11:08:50 PM

Q_Q


sold.

4/9/2008 11:25:57 PM

how much

4/9/2008 11:30:16 PM

not much

4/9/2008 11:31:15 PM

^^^yeah, it was gay, but i got them back

they wanted to attempt solarion after they finally got Void Reaver down, but oh noes the paladin tank is gone

waiting outside the instance my ass

4/9/2008 11:54:30 PM

resto shaman with a soul cleaver FTW, now to get my torch of the damned haha

4/10/2008 12:21:57 AM

Just downed Azgalor....on to Archimonde, woot woot, I'm surprised by how amazingly easy Hyjal has been so far

4/10/2008 1:47:22 AM

^^^ You are complaining because you, a paladin tank, and 2 melee dps friends got into a 25 man raiding guild and they sat you out for one boss? And then you "get back" at them by not being available when they needed/wanted you back? Yeah, you really showed them...

4/10/2008 2:38:11 AM

keep rolling your eyes at me and i'll smack them into the back of your head

basically, we get into the raid, get told that we'll be used on the boss, and then after clearing all the trash we get kicked from the raid so that other people can come in and try to kill the boss. we were sold into killing trash for the benefit of other people who were not in the raid before us at all.

It took us about an hour to clear to VR or so, and then it took them until about 11 to finally kill him, so it wasn't sitting out for one boss on farm. if this is how 25 man raids normally go, then fuck that and fuck wow. i have better things to do than spend my free time clearing trash for boss attempts.

(not to even mention the benefit of an extremely high threat paladin tank over a warrior tank on that fight...ignorant players ftl)

4/10/2008 2:50:02 AM

Quote :

"keep rolling your eyes at me and i'll smack them into the back of your head"

REALLY??

Quote :

"get told that we'll be used on the boss, and then after clearing all the trash we get kicked from the raid so that other people can come in and try to kill the boss."

That is pretty gay if they specifically told you that you could be there for the boss fight and then removed you.

Quote :

"if this is how 25 man raids normally go, then fuck that and fuck wow. i have better things to do than spend my free time clearing trash for boss attempts."

That is the way it works man. I do trash and sit out for boss fights all the time. Sometimes the boss doesn't need as many tanks as the trash does or the boss is especially unfriendly to a certain class or configuration or there is no way you can get loot (either doesn't drop anything for you or you have too little or no dkp) and someone else who isn't in the raid but is on can. Sometimes you need to stack the raid, especially when learning new fights.

If you don't enjoy raiding don't do it. If you are expecting to be there for every boss attempt/kill and get loot when you want it and have things done on your time table, then WoW raiding is not for you. There are 24 other people in the raid alone, not to mention the other people that are in the guild and aren't even in the raid. Guild/raid leaders are going to do what's best for the guild/raid, not the individual player (unless they operate on a corrupt loot council system, which some guilds do).

Quote :

"(not to even mention the benefit of an extremely high threat paladin tank over a warrior tank on that fight...ignorant players ftl)"

Most raid encounters weren't designed with paladin tanks in mind. Just because you have 2000 more hp doesn't mean you are easier to keep alive than a warrior tank. If you had 2000 more hp while also having equal or better avoidance and armor rating I would agree that they should have kept you in, but without knowing that it's hard to say.

4/10/2008 3:25:46 AM

Quote :

"if your raid cant do .05% after he enrages then you fail"

he did his touch of death thing that hit everyone instantly for 100k. it wasnt like he bounced between targets.

but yeah, our dps failed pretty hard. i think you only need like 6k raid dps to kill him.

[Edited on April 10, 2008 at 3:28 AM. Reason : ]

4/10/2008 3:28:09 AM

Quote :

"he did his touch of death thing that hit everyone instantly for 100k"

LIES!!! I survived the finger of death twice before it killed me the other day (retard ran up to Archimonde when no on was around and he started doing that on people out of range).

Quote :

"i think you only need like 6k raid dps to kill him"

Quote :

"Brutallus has approximately 10 million HP, and enrages 6 minutes after he is engaged. This means that in order to kill him before he enrages, your raid must sustain 27.8k raid DPS (an average of 1750 DPS each if you bring 16 or 1850 DPS if you bring 15 DPS classes)"

lol, gl in sunwell!

4/10/2008 3:30:13 AM

Quote :

"i'm tanking on my paladin and i have the highest health in the raid"

As healer, I can tell you know, paladin tanks are hard to heal. WTS shield block.

4/10/2008 7:15:49 AM

We have a warrior, feral druid, and paladin tank in our raids (up to Shahz in BT until we kill her tonight). There are very few boss fights the pally MT's if the warrior is available. We use ours for the trash especially in hyjal and parts of BT along with fights that require more than one tank. We generally do not sit him for fights, but he also has pretty good healing gear so he just switches over to a healing role typically. Now if we are missing some key healers or are dps is a bit low with newer people he will generally volunteer to sit out a fight to swap for something more needed if that means getting the boss down. Now swapping you out for another tank at a boss fight is kinda shitty Ill admit. Unless they told you you were subbing in for the MT because he was late or something, and if that were the case we give people full dkp after the are replaced as long as they stay online.

4/10/2008 8:32:18 AM

Quote :

"unless they operate on a corrupt loot council system, which some guilds do"

4/10/2008 11:13:46 AM

well, you said you did just join a raiding guild that does 25 mans right? they probably have been working on thier 25 man raids for at least a little while now...

now im not sure how long your current guildmates have been trying to complete their 25-mans, but question... where were YOU that whole time? it seems ungrateful to pull out the new guy and get some of the raiders who have been working all that time to come in get a drop that they would need and that would help the guild as a whole, but what if you were a long standing guild member and a new guy comes in a gets the drop youve been working for all that time. plus, that new guy thinks hes so entitled to that loot that he would (just to spite his guildmates) sit out when he's actually really needed.

then again, i dont know your situation with your guild entirely, but i know that if im the new guy in a serious raiding guild, im going to be on the bottom of the totem pole subject to substitutions, regardless of gear.

raiding might not be for you.

4/10/2008 12:10:41 PM

We're recruiting!

http://www.wowgoons.com

4/10/2008 12:14:20 PM

who would ever join a guild that charges money? that is ridiculous

4/10/2008 12:36:24 PM

dude, its goonswarm

[Edited on April 10, 2008 at 1:06 PM. Reason : or goonfleet?]

4/10/2008 1:05:42 PM

dude, its goonswarm

4/10/2008 1:06:12 PM

rofl goonsquad 'recruiting'

Our 1123 members are not enough!

But yea peter getting swapped out in encounters is pretty routine and as a pally tank you actually shouldn't expect to be tanking many bosses, if any at all. The way you take damage and the 'oh shit' options a tank has are crucial in t6 encounters.

Invest in a good healing set. I've seen prot paladins with more +healing and regen then regular holy paladins.

4/10/2008 3:00:43 PM

^^^ Goonfleet is in Eve Online.

The guild is just <Goon Squad>.

4/10/2008 3:11:26 PM

Joining a guild that charges a membership fee is like joining a frat. You failed at making IRL friends so you paid for them.

4/10/2008 3:12:32 PM

Please please tell me you guys realize the whole paying to join Goon Squad thing is a joke, right? Here read this.

Quote :

"Only PLATINUM members are considered for application to <Elitist Jerks>, a <Goon Squad> spin-off guild which otherwise is closed to new members."

That should have set off an alarm to anyone who's ever played on Mal'Ganis. I'll give it to them though, it's a really well done joke.

4/10/2008 3:16:41 PM

There's also the guild-wide mass e-mail sent by a GM regarding our "There's no S in Labyrinth" mod.

4/10/2008 3:18:07 PM

what's the deal with everyone saying pally tanks take more damage or take it differently? what, taking crushes is a good thing? sure, we take like 2% more damage, whoop de fucking do. We can stack shield block value just as well as warriors.

Novacane, what's your experience healing a geared paladin tank?

seriously though, there are more important advantages and disadvantages to all the tanks. Some fights a paladin straight cannot tank, others paladins are the preferred tank (like, uh, Illidan). see this site http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintankadin/viewtopic.php?t=3619 (yeah, its biased, but the facts are there)

honestly, its just ineptness of raid leaders and other players (Q_Q lol) that pisses me off...i'll get a better reply later tonight. i understand i won't be in for every boss fight and i've donned my healing gear plenty of times, but being switched out for a boss fight that is not a progression kill, that they literally invited me to come tank, and then be replaced by a lesser geared tank right after the trash is complete shit.

4/10/2008 5:13:30 PM

its obvious you don't have a fucking clue sir...GG. ^

4/10/2008 6:23:57 PM

Gear and skill being equal, a pally tank is not as good as a warrior at damage mitigation and single-target threat generation. This is simply a fact.

4/10/2008 6:37:22 PM

Lol, at least grow fur before attempting the i r >= worrior tank


OMG LEIK 500% DOGE SO FUK PARRY

4/10/2008 7:07:37 PM

Shahraz down

4/10/2008 9:20:04 PM

lol.

4/10/2008 11:26:01 PM

archimonde down

4/11/2008 2:07:22 AM

cleared to mother last night
hopefully we'll get some good work on council done this week

4/11/2008 6:38:30 AM

black hawk down

4/11/2008 8:31:25 AM

Dear WoW,

Please give my friend Azaka back.

He wont answer phone calls anymore.

I'm willing to pay you for your help.

Regards,

Quinn
Stein
porcha

4/11/2008 8:42:21 AM

give me entertaining ideas on how to blow through 850g

4/11/2008 1:40:07 PM

Pay 850 level 1 players 1g each to spam "NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER" in trade chat simultaneously.

4/11/2008 1:42:37 PM

buy something that costs 849.99
and give 0.01 to charity.

4/11/2008 1:55:29 PM

Quote :

"Gear and skill being equal, a pally tank is not as good as a warrior at damage mitigation and single-target threat generation. This is simply a fact. "

On damage mitigation, you're correct; a warrior will take less damage for bleeding-edge content, especially on mixed fights that let warriors use things like spell reflect in addition to their overall higher dodge/parry avoidance. But as long as the boss is close enough to my gear level to keep my mana pool healthy, I run circles around my guild's warrior tanks with my paladin when it comes to single-target threat generation. On the Void Reaver fight that spawned this discussion, a good pally tank can hold aggro continuously until at least 30-35% before the threat reductions lets a warrior take over. And no, that's not a good comparison because the warrior tanks aren't getting hit and generating rage, but on something that's straightforward like the bear boss in ZA, my threat per second is at least 15-20% higher than the warriors I tank it with.

My guild, and the druid offtanks, always liked it when I tanked Gruul instead of a warrior, since the dps could push harder and get him down faster.

4/11/2008 2:30:40 PM

Just got chest/shoulders =)

That's a Cspire btw.





[Edited on April 11, 2008 at 11:05 PM. Reason : ..]

4/11/2008 11:04:23 PM

SEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXYYYYYYYYYYYYY

4/12/2008 2:40:19 AM

Quote :

"Novacane, what's your experience healing a geared paladin tank?"

Well first let me say I have healed just about every encounter in BC up to RoS. Every SSC/TK.

We pretty much just use a paladin in Hyjal, RoS trash, etc. We never have one main tanking. They just get hit way too hard.

Now thats not say it can't be done. Sure a pally could tank but where are the sunders? where is the shield block? stance dance? I mean there is so much stuff a warrior brings to single target mobs in raid encounters its almost a necessity to use a warrior over a paladin.

We even tried to use one for bloodboil the other night and it just doesn't happen. They get hit too hard and run oom. You'll see once you hit hyal/BT that these encounters start even phasing out druid tanks.

4/12/2008 2:48:00 AM

Yeah we use our pally tank for Hyjal trash, one of 3 tanks on bloodboil, he tanks phase 3 of RoS, tanks one side of adds on shade of akama. Pally tanks make great tanks in certain situations, but for boss encounters they still dont compare to a warrior.

4/12/2008 8:41:59 AM

Quote :

"Sure a pally could tank but where are the sunders? where is the shield block? stance dance?"

My memory's a little hazy now that I haven't played this game in so long, but can't any warrior put up sunders? Won't a t5/t6 paladin tank be immune to crushing blows just like a warrior? Is stance dancing even necessary anymore (I know they've changed who has fear ward and fear mechanics since I quit, honest question here)?

4/12/2008 9:17:03 AM

Its generally a bad idea to sunder things that you DONT want attacking you.

Also, its going to sigificantly drop that warrior's dps, and likely cancel out any added benefit.

[Edited on April 12, 2008 at 2:34 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2008 2:31:47 PM

^

4/12/2008 5:16:16 PM

depends on the length of the fight. 2600 armor pen is well worth the rage spent on it. if you don't have a dps war in, having a rogue expose armor is generally worth it too. it's worth it most of the time in 10 mans too.

4/13/2008 10:56:04 AM

Quote :

"its obvious you don't have a fucking clue sir...GG. ^"

Oh, thanks for pointing that out, your contribution to this discussion was immaculate and we couldn't have reached any conclusions without your valuable input.

Quote :

"Gear and skill being equal, a pally tank is not as good as a warrior at damage mitigation and single-target threat generation. This is simply a fact."

As far as I know, the only difference in mitigation is that warriors have more damage reduction in talents. If you're talking about mitigation as in dodge, parry, block, then that just comes down to gear and gem choices. The warrior that the guild runs in my raid team stacks dodge, which I really don't like seeing because that means his damage intake is spiky and unpredictable, although I guess for warriors that works since they will take crushings from unlucky charges being burned in lower gear levels. His effective health is far lower than mine and his threat will be significantly lower than any tank who takes more hits...which actually resulted in a dps death in ZA this weekend. The best model that I've read about for a tank is high stam, high armor and damage reduction over evasion (like dodge) so that healers have a consistent flow of damage coming into the target to deal with.

A pally tank will far outstrip just about any warrior tank of comparable gear level, on a typical boss fight (no special cases). I'll have to check my numbers when I play again, but on the bear boss I was getting 1200 TPS sustained when I was tanking him. That was with only about 347 spell damage, which is only pants, chest, weapon, and weapon oil.

Quote :

"Sure a pally could tank but where are the sunders? where is the shield block? stance dance? I mean there is so much stuff a warrior brings to single target mobs in raid encounters its almost a necessity to use a warrior over a paladin."

Sunders? Other warriors can put those up, even your prot warrior offtanks. I still don't understand what you're talking about for shield block, because a paladin will block every single attack that comes at him whereas a warrior tank's shield charges will fall off in unlucky parry or fast attack situations and take a crushing blow. Are you talking about the amount of block value?

Stance dance for fear is an issue, so you don't use a paladin for that fight. Spell reflect is another shitty gimic that keeps the paladin tanks down 'Oh shit' buttons for when your healers fuck up are good too, which paladins need since that's apparently the next big hurtle. We do have much better scaling health, though.

So yeah, a warrior tank has some advantages. So does the paladin tank, such as no crushing blows at all, very high threat cap, seal of wisdom for your casters, ranged taunt, the occasional lay on hands, and of course add duty. We also have ardent defender (drop below 35% health and damage you take is reduced by 30%), and if you combine that with the HMgT trinket its just plain sexy. Yes, there are some gimic fights where you don't want a paladin tank, but there are some fights where you can and would want to use one. Same with druids, although I know next to nothing about them.

Quote :

"We even tried to use one for bloodboil the other night and it just doesn't happen. They get hit too hard and run oom. You'll see once you hit hyal/BT that these encounters start even phasing out druid tanks."

I hope you're talking about healers, because a pally tank will never run out of mana when being hit too hard unless he is complete shit. Reading the bloodboil strat, I'm interested to see why your tank died, because at that gear level the damage difference between him and the warriors shouldn't be that much.

----

And although its kind of a moot point now, the guild leader had a talk to the raid leader who shaved out raiders and that won't happen again . Instead, if something like that will happen its declared at the beginning of the raid. Worked in ZA when we did a timed chest run, good times.

[Edited on April 14, 2008 at 7:31 PM. Reason : >]

4/14/2008 7:29:21 PM