I wish Toyota would just stop playing the stupid name branding game and kill Scion. Then give us this car as the Celica.

Dipshits...

11/29/2011 3:01:05 PM

yes... but wasn't the ae86 a corolla?


that could get confusing..

however... when you make a car as shitty as the echo... why bother making a shitty car branch of your company?

11/29/2011 3:16:18 PM

agreed, it makes no sense.

11/29/2011 3:44:01 PM

WHERE MY PIX TEG!!! WHERE THEY ARE?

11/29/2011 7:19:31 PM

Nothing new, but I thought I'd post anyways:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/subaru-brz-coupe-revealed-2011-11-29

[Edited on November 29, 2011 at 9:07 PM. Reason : .]

11/29/2011 9:02:08 PM

I would not own the scion. I would however seriously look at the subaru.

11/29/2011 9:47:48 PM

Turns out the Toyota debut isn't until 9:30PM EST

But the Subaru WAS at 7. Ah, also I forgot that it's 10pm, lol. Dammit the site I get my info from, http://www.ft86club.com is running super sloooooow.

I'll just look around for the official pics tomorrow if someone else doesn't do it sooner

11/29/2011 10:00:55 PM

Comparison between C&D and official specs posted on page 3 by Teg:

Quote :

"Official technical specifications have been leaked. 200ps (197hp) @ 7000rpm 151 lb-ft torque @ 6600rpm 1210kg weight (base version) 1230kg weight (uplevel package) "

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2013-scion-fr-s-official-photos-and-info-news

Quote :

"We now know that, at least in the U.K., the 2.0-liter Subaru flat-four with Toyota’s combination direct-and-port injection will make 197 hp at 7000 rpm and 151 lb-ft of torque at 6600 rpm."

Quote :

"With a claimed 53/47 front-to-rear weight split, the GT 86 also comes closer than a Cayman R (45/55) to perfect balance, and the Toyota’s center-of-gravity height is nearly as low (18.1 inches versus 18.0 in our testing of the Cayman R). "

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-subaru-brz-sports-car-prototype-drive

Quote :

"Specifications > VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 2+2-passenger, 2-door coupe BASE PRICE (EST): $28,000 ENGINE TYPE: DOHC 16-valve flat-4, aluminum block and heads, port and direct fuel injection Displacement: 122 cu in, 1995 cc Power (EST): 210 hp @ 6500 rpm Torque (EST): 170 lb-ft @ 4000 rpm TRANSMISSION: 6-speed manual, 6-speed automatic with manual shifting mode DIMENSIONS (C/D EST): Wheelbase: 101.2 in Length: 168.0 in Width: 71.0 in Height: 48.0 in Curb weight: 2800–2900 lb PERFORMANCE (C/D EST): Zero to 60 mph: 6.0–6.2 sec Zero to 100 mph: 15.5–15.7 sec ¼-mile: 14.7–14.9 sec Top speed: 140 mph PROJECTED FUEL ECONOMY (C/D EST): EPA city/highway driving: 19/27 mpg "

[Edited on November 30, 2011 at 2:59 AM. Reason : .]

11/30/2011 2:42:47 AM

neat vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw6WnrqMDTw&feature=player_embedded

11/30/2011 5:41:32 AM

^^That BRZ estimated price is heresy, nothing official is out yet. And I really have to wonder about the logic of them trying to sell that car for a few thousand more than the far superior (performance-wise) WRX. To some people looks isn't everything. I could understand it being sold at roughly the same price, but a few thousand more? Not really.

Quote :

"With a claimed 53/47 front-to-rear weight split, the GT 86 also comes closer than a Cayman R (45/55) to perfect balance, and the Toyota’s center-of-gravity height is nearly as low (18.1 inches versus 18.0 in our testing of the Cayman R)."

There's some funky marketing spin for you. It's generally accepted that a slight rear bias is preferable to 50/50. Also note the 53/47 split for the GT-86 is with an averaged size male sitting in the driver's seat.

[Edited on November 30, 2011 at 8:36 AM. Reason : k]

11/30/2011 8:35:44 AM

i read somewhere that it was two people...... 1 i can handle but two??

I mean other then a day with an instructor who wants a car balanced around 2 people?

11/30/2011 8:44:52 AM

You might be right, I almost typed 2 when thinking about it. And agreed, who wants to be balanced with 2 ppl!

With such a short engine (half the length of an inline 4) I am surprised they couldn't achieve a better front/rear balance. The engine still mostly sits in front of the front axle line, why could it not be pushed further back? Both the Miata and S2000 have 50/50 balance with longer engines (and ditto countless BMWs).

[Edited on November 30, 2011 at 11:15 AM. Reason : cost saving measures?]

11/30/2011 11:12:27 AM

yeah i don't get it either.

they took the diff out and moved the tranny forward rather then sliding the engine back

11/30/2011 10:12:27 PM

Now that all 3 cars are out, I fail to see the logic behind producing 3 cars with identical engines and near-identical bodies but different badges.

I thought the whole point of this collaboration was to have the same engine but different bodies, following their own brand's design languages...?

Subaru in their press release says something like "It is immediately recognizable as a Subaru". Umm, no it is not. And if it were, then the Toyota and Scion models are also Subarus

Screw the BRZ STi Concept's and Scion Concept's (and Toyota Concept's) uniqueness... let's make them all the same in production trim! Idiots.





Hi-res galleries:

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2012-toyota-gt-86/full/
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2012-toyota-gt-86-tokyo-2011-photos/full/

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2013-subaru-brz/full/
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2012-subaru-brz-live-reveal/full/

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2013-scion-fr-s/full/
http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2013-scion-fr-s-live-debut/full/

Some videos:

Toyota: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw6WnrqMDTw
Toyota: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pCXsFDlvns
Subaru: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP3SR1m_aRY (Shows car drifting, but totally marred by some completely mismatched sappy song)

12/1/2011 9:21:28 AM

Quote :

"the far superior (performance-wise) WRX"

bench performance, yes but I'm not so sure a wrx could turn out better lap times in stock form

12/1/2011 9:28:25 AM

So if I was trying to shop between the Toyota/Scion and the Subaru, all I would have to decide on (as far as the exterior is concerned) is the 5% difference between the bumpers/lights, and the 100% difference between the badges... what a tough decision!

12/1/2011 10:11:47 AM

toyota has audi-esque leds in lights subaru has weird C light in head lights...

scion has none

seriously the scion better be cheaper then the genesis, it's survival depends on it.

12/1/2011 10:17:36 AM

They will probably either only make 1-2 of these or have some other major differentiation.

12/1/2011 11:31:50 AM

STARTED AS



ENDED AS



[Edited on December 1, 2011 at 11:54 AM. Reason : FAIL]

12/1/2011 11:53:24 AM

Quote :

"So if I was trying to shop between the Toyota/Scion and the Subaru, all I would have to decide on (as far as the exterior is concerned) is the 5% difference between the bumpers/lights, and the 100% difference between the badges... what a tough decision!"

Your choice in the NA market would be obvious depending on who you are.

If you want to paint the interior plastic bright yellow, curb all the wheels, take out the perfectly fine factory stereo and replace it with a bunch of stuff "your homeboy sold you" that never really seems complete, and let your friends haphazardly put a bunch of cigarette burns in the seats you buy the Scion.

If you think of yourself as far outdoorsy than you really are, call yourself an enthusiast, are LGBT, or have an affinity for gold rims you buy the Subie.

12/1/2011 11:55:20 AM

lol....

funny thing is... this is really how a lot of people buy cars.

IE... the boss 302 is too rednecky for most people who should be driving it.

12/1/2011 11:58:35 AM

^^ lol

12/1/2011 12:42:23 PM

^^ I secretly hate that I love the 5.0 Mustang so much.
Something tells me I'll own one for at least 9 months at some point in the next 5 years.

12/1/2011 4:07:14 PM

Quote :

"BASE PRICE (EST): $28,000"

Does anyone else feel like this is way to much? Is that wrong?

12/1/2011 7:14:13 PM

Looks like the toyota 86 is rocking dual fog lamps on each side.

Quote :

"DUAL FOG LAMPS"

12/1/2011 7:37:33 PM

If you are considering this car, save up for another year, and get the more powerful model.

Quote :

"Subaru and Scion siblings have been well received so far, however general consensus is there is still room for improvements. You might be pleased, yet unsurprised to hear the Japanese manufacturer is working on an even hotter version. The source of the information comes from the GT 86's chief engineer Tetsu Tada who has confirmed the hotter model is well past the consideration stage. In fact, test cars are already out on the road and being evaluated by Toyota Racing Developments. The existing Subaru sourced 197bhp (147 kW / 200PS) 2.0 naturally aspirated boxer engine will benefit from a supercharger which should boost the overall power output by at least 50bhp. The existing chassis is believed to be strong enough to easily cope with the extra power, but Toyota will be working on an improved suspension system."

12/2/2011 4:02:55 PM

Yeah, but how much more will it cost?

12/2/2011 4:17:28 PM

who knows... we don't even know yet how much the normal one is going to cost.

my estimates, for base prices:

fr-s: $24K
brz: $26K

hot fr-s: $28K
hot brz: $30k

12/2/2011 4:21:51 PM

yeah, but how much will stolen ones cost?

12/2/2011 4:47:49 PM

my biggest concern is

WILL THE SUBARU VERSION COME WITH GOLD WHEELS?????

12/2/2011 5:20:58 PM

the sti version surely will.

12/2/2011 5:23:49 PM

consider me sold on one

12/2/2011 5:29:18 PM

This car looks like an S2000 coupe. With less hp.

12/2/2011 7:10:00 PM

^ but more torque. And usuable torque.

EVERYONE ALWAYS FORGETS THE TORQUE

12/2/2011 7:16:34 PM

Personally I think they're all pretty good-looking--but I, too, am absolutely puzzled why they didn't differentiate the cars more with respect to the brands' style cues. Since we aren't getting the Toyota version in the USA, I can see the Scion being near-identical. But the Subaru...looks nothing like a Subaru. It looks like what it is--a Toyota wearing a Subaru badge, headlamps, and wing.

12/2/2011 7:53:00 PM

i srsly want the subie to have awd

don't care about it being turbo'd or not

and don't get me wrong, it is a good looking car

but i want my awd

12/2/2011 8:03:51 PM

yeah and where they put the engine you could almost have it too


HAH i called it ... somewhere either in this thread or jalopnik i said there would be a supercharged trd and a turbo sti...

$5 says that's how this shit goes down.. .

and they will be 28 & 30 or 30 & 32k respectively

12/2/2011 8:10:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=POmlm4unRUA

http://www.frs-scion.com/

12/3/2011 6:33:24 AM

^^lol, as if there was ever any doubt that some form of FI would be on the way

Quote :

"but more torque. And usuable torque. EVERYONE ALWAYS FORGETS THE TORQUE "

You are mostly...wrong. This car may have slightly more usable torque since it is located a bit further down the power band. However it does NOT have more torque than the S2000. And that goes for the 2.0 AP1 or 2.2 AP2.

With word confirmed (more or less) that TRD is developing a supercharger kit there's no way I'd go out and by one of these NA models. However I will definitely go test drive one to get an idea.

Also, I think it's been confirmed that the Subaru BRZ's base price is $24,000.

(I've been drunk in NYC the last 4 days, hence why i haven't been posting in here )

12/5/2011 8:54:17 AM

base price on the Scion is $22k in latest car & driver

12/5/2011 9:37:02 AM

so... they are pitted squarely against the Hyundai genesis turbo...

which for 24k you'll get 75 more ponies... and brembos... but... i bet the chassis feels clumsy in comparison.


[Edited on December 5, 2011 at 9:42 AM. Reason : .]

12/5/2011 9:41:50 AM

^^It still has not officially been announced so that is still speculation.

^don't forget the extra 500 lbs you get for your money as well

12/5/2011 11:10:22 AM

damn...

i find it odd that a genesis weighs what my 4 door awd car does...

wtf ?

12/5/2011 11:36:59 AM

Wow, actually starting to consider this. If nothing just for the gas mileage improvement

12/5/2011 12:29:27 PM

There's a developmental TRD Toyota employee that posts on the S2000 forums quite frequently. He's already driven the FRS several times and here's what he posted the other day:

Quote :

"having driven the car more than a few times. S owners who love their S when they finally drive the GT-86/FR-S will love the car. there's something familiar but not familiar about the car. the engine sweetspot like i've said before all the media write ups is between 3k and 6500k, there's really no need to push it beyond 7k. in fact when i first drove it the cut-off from what i remember was at 7900-8k rpms and recently the pre-production was cutting sooner at 7600rpms. when you do feel the 2nd cam kick in at 3k its very linear and then tapers off past 7k. the car doesn't need to shift as much as the S entering and exiting into corners. powerwise how does it compare to the S? comparable, but the S is stronger up top. they could've given it a bit more power but there's a reason why it has 200hp. cool feature that they learned from the LFA. they pumped engine noise into the cabin, at first your going to roll down the window thinking its better to hear but in actuality its better to hear it when the windows are up. the sound is like a subie at idle through 3k but not from 4-7k, weird. in fact that's the only reason the push it beyond 7k just so you can hear the engine. it sounds great on 4 to 3 to 2nd downshifts. shifter is not S-like but what is. it's direct with a little bit of notchiness entering the gates but not like the 350z more miata like in feel. the pedals are perfect for heel and toe for my 10.5 feet. also the throttle pedal is mounted to the firewall like your pushing down a button, its not a j-arm or floor mounted like some supercars. great driving position for all drivers even for those who are above 6'3". plenty of seat travel, there's height adjustment with a tilt and telescope wheel. also even with the seats set to the lowest setting along with the wheel, my 5' 10" frame could still see perfectly out where the doors and dash wasn't above my shoulders. also, the alcantara red stitched seats are well bolstered on both the torso and thigh area. if you can get people in the back they're also treated with "rear passenger" sport bucket like seats. the suspension is actually better than the S. driving it on LA freeways compared to the S is a lot more forgiving but you would think that would affect the handling, not! its fluid, agile, direct and super responsive to inputs. in fact a lot of people will probably hate it when they read it, its actualy a little better than the S. the best and easiest way i can say it. if you've ever driven the 3rd gen mr2 or miatas and then drove the S, that's what it feels like. the S though is a little flatter during constant left to right transitions where the FR-S has a little more body roll but not by much. i wondered after getting in the S how the car would do if it was fitted with stickier summer tires with a staggered wheel and tire set-up, thought-thought-thought.... it will actually ruin it. it will understeer more whereas it transitions so easily and when the rear breaks loose its very progressive, unlike the S. even new rwd drivers with enough seat time will learn how to control this car right away. its off-flick-gas-opposite-super wide grin, and....... its not scary, you and it is very-very much in control. everything from the power, the chassis, the suspension and its michelin primacy mxm4 tires works in perfect harmony. only gripes with usdm FR-S. the interior materials (dash, door sills, front seats, steering wheel) are of very nice quality and that's because it is shared with GT-86 and BRZ. the a/c controls were lifted from the corolla, tc, yaris, xb parts bin, where the GT and BRZ has digital dials with toggles. also we won't get the smart key with push button start but these features might make it with RS series. tms fought hard to keep them but we want to undercut the price of the BRZ when its avialbale stateside, and we are still negotiating final price with tmmc. if your looking for a 2+2 S or even a car that similar to the S but you can't get a new one, the FR-S is it. another huge plus will be the price point for a lightweight fun to drive rwd coupe. "

Sounds very promising!

12/5/2011 2:02:20 PM

link?

12/5/2011 2:09:42 PM

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/913297-toyota-gt86-first-impressions/

TRDLiquidSilver is the poster...His is the last one on that page.

12/5/2011 2:27:04 PM

2013 Subaru BRZ First Drive (only one so far?)

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/05/2013-subaru-brz-first-drive-review

Didn't read it all, just the beginning and ending, and sounds great so far:

Quote :

"Naturally, then, if everything is decent then the only place to go is... better. That's how you get to a brand like Subaru deciding to make a sports car and using, as a guide, the Porsche Cayman. And we do mean literal guide. During testing, Subaru engineers took a white Cayman on their international travels. We don't blame them. When the brief is to build "a pure handling sports car," where better to start than with the company that practically wrote and constantly revises the bible of handling, Porsche?"

Quote :

"Subaru doesn't expect high volumes for the car, just 5,000 to 7,000 per year. The Cayman comparisons aren't out of place, nor is the suggestion – again made by McHale – that Subaru built a car that feels like a sports car from 20 or 30 years ago. True, it isn't a Cayman, but it will cost easily 20 grand less than a Cayman* and yet provides easily more than seven-tenths of the Cayman's pure cornering ability, and that's probably closer to eight-tenths, but we won't know until we get more time with the car. And it does bring back happy days of yore passed on Midwestern back roads in '80s Celica Supras and Preludes and first-gen Miatas. Those were good times, and so is the BRZ. The asterisk is because we still don't know pricing, which we were told should come sometime around next February's Chicago Auto Show, and we think price will play an exceptionally heavy role in this car's fate. We heard every number from $22,000 to "somewhere around the WRX," which is $25,595, to $28,000. Of the broad competitive set Subaru listed, a 210-hp Genesis 2.0T Coupe starts at $22,250, a 300-hp V6 Mustang is $23,105, the Mazda Miata is $23,190 and the RX-8 is $26,795. There is no doubt about whether the car does what it was built to do – it handles terrifically, it sounds great especially if you're a fan of high-revving fours, it's a solid shifter with either transmission and a pleasant cabin. Yet Subaru hasn't played in this space before and they're expecting this to be a conquest vehicle. We think in order to give it the attention it deserves it needs to have a price that makes it impossible to ignore, at least for a test drive and serious think. Having not driven its biggest competitor and close twin yet, the Scion FR-S, we'll say for now that if Subaru can put a good sticker on the BRZ's window, then – as the engineer suggested to us – it needs nothing else. Except maybe a little more power, because we're greedy like that."

80% of Cayman, for about half the price? Cool.



Here is a video of the BRZ GT300 race car... looks and sounds awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LjYl7VfFKE


[Edited on December 5, 2011 at 8:08 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2011 8:00:25 PM

Top Gear drove it as well!

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/subaru-brz-first-drive-review-2011-12-03

12/5/2011 8:51:07 PM

Quote :

"Low weight was also a priority. Subaru said the target was 2,700 pounds, and according to the numbers we were given, they beat it by about half a sack of potatoes, coming in at 2,689. Although that's 100 pounds less than a Civic SI and 600 less than a Mustang, it's better to judge the BRZ against a more natural competitor: the BRZ is 10 hp and 73 lb-ft down on the Hyundai Genesis Coupe, but is about 600 pounds lighter."

I really like to hear this.

12/6/2011 9:43:13 AM