In review
-Millions of north koreans are hungry due to sanctions inposed by the US
-There are blackouts due to climate change affecting hydro power and its cute to show satellite footage of them


Just look at how poor and backwards the Northeastern US is...

11/13/2017 12:13:00 AM

Pretty standard Pennsylvania stuff.

11/13/2017 8:02:51 AM

I agree in many cases with things you say. You are beyond wrong when you talk about North Korea.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/23/north-korea-by-night-satellite-images-shed-new-light-on-the-secretive-state

Unless it's normal for temporary blackouts to last year's at a time, your picture of the NE US is a horrible analogy.

[Edited on November 13, 2017 at 10:29 AM. Reason : A]

11/13/2017 10:28:32 AM

Earl (Tulis) is a troll. He's always been a troll.

11/13/2017 10:46:49 AM

^^Why do you think there are blackouts in North Korea. Is it because the government just want to make the people miserable?

^im notearl

11/13/2017 12:31:55 PM

actively preventing people from leaving the country is a solid way to make people miserable.

11/13/2017 1:29:21 PM

^^You do realize that basically all the money that comes into that government goes into its military, and doesn't get spent on upgrading things like their power grid.

11/13/2017 2:45:02 PM

^^ Yeah, like trying to kill them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/world/asia/north-korea-defector-south.html

11/13/2017 3:50:56 PM

What’s up with the shrimping slave labor to pay for nuclear weapons?

11/13/2017 6:04:19 PM

Quote :

"^^You do realize that basically all the money that comes into that government goes into its military, and doesn't get spent on upgrading things like their power grid."

Did you ever stop and think for a second about why defense is their priority?

There is no point in having an updated power grid if your entire country is destroyed.

[Edited on November 13, 2017 at 7:52 PM. Reason : i know you know, your bias is just keeping your from using your own knowledge]

11/13/2017 7:40:08 PM

Great line of thinking

11/13/2017 8:16:34 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/21/asia/north-korea-defector/index.html

11/22/2017 5:12:18 PM

It seems like things are deteriorating in the North. They can't survive all these sanctions forever. I don't necessarily believe the news, but if the part of the story about the parasites is true, then they could be on the brink of collapse. No one knows how bad this new famine is.

11/22/2017 5:27:55 PM

11/23/2017 1:32:38 AM

LOL Murrcans... they want to destroy countries but don't know where they are.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/14/upshot/if-americans-can-find-north-korea-on-a-map-theyre-more-likely-to-prefer-diplomacy.html

Where is North Korea? Here are guesses from 1,746 adults:

Just 36 percent got it right. Here are the countries they selected:



[Edited on November 29, 2017 at 5:01 PM. Reason : LET'S BOMB AUSTRALIA!!!]

11/29/2017 5:00:37 PM

Same with Ukraine after Russia invaded Crimea. Most people didn't even pick Europe as the right continent.

11/29/2017 5:01:53 PM

nevermind. Interpreted the illustration wrong

[Edited on November 29, 2017 at 6:56 PM. Reason : How do people mess up geography this bad?]

11/29/2017 6:53:12 PM

Quote :

"How do people mess up geography this bad?"

Should be easy to understand how they mess up when most people are never exposed to this kind of stuff. Its not "messing up" if its something you've never been exposed to.

Our schools teach a watered down eurocentric white wash of history that usually sprints through Mesopotamia, egypt, greece, rome, french revolution, ww1, and american ww2. The rest of the world is never mentioned. Americans learn about russia, china, and india through pop culture and thats about it.


even so called "good" high school geography classes might have students memorize names and label them on a map quiz once with no conext.

Its tricky because its hard to teach history and give geographical context without revealing all of the terrible things white imperialism has done.

11/29/2017 7:12:06 PM

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-to-win-a-nuclear-standoff/
I select 0 and win every time because I don't need 100 dollars and the US doesn't need the metaphorical 100 dollars. Let them have it.

12/2/2017 4:58:09 PM

Dude thanks for posting that. Great article.

Reminded me of this: https://youtu.be/S0qjK3TWZE8

12/2/2017 5:28:26 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/12/china-refugee-camps-border-north-korea

I wonder what China thinks will happen first - a pre-emptive US strike, NK nuking someone, or the NK regime just imploding on itself?

12/12/2017 3:49:20 PM

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/north-korea/north-korean-gulags-terrible-or-even-worse-nazi-camps-auschwitz-n828751

12/12/2017 5:49:21 PM

id like to see more evidence than so called "defector testimony". I am going to always use extreme caution when considering "witness accounts" from people who have a major self- interest in making things seem worse than what they are. Is there any hard evidence of these accounts?

not only that, but the concluasions are already being peddled as prowar propaganda before these claims have eben been vetted #foolmecantgetfooledagain

12/12/2017 5:58:41 PM

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/north-korea

https://www.ibanet.org/Document/Default.aspx?DocumentUid=AD2E22D6-5542-421C-99B0-1AADE4142F2C

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/north-korea/

12/12/2017 6:12:53 PM

correct me if im wrong, but that seems like its all based on more of the same as other reports. defector anecdotes . again, is therr any hard evidence or proof of horrible things like "babies being fed to dogs"

12/12/2017 6:45:02 PM

#2 is missing. collapse coming. shits about to pop off.

12/15/2017 5:50:45 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/hwang-pyong-so-north-korea-disappear-second-powerful-man-leader-kim-jong-un-a8111891.html

12/15/2017 5:55:59 PM

brutal footage of a camp where children from all over north korea are sent for weeks at a time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqfNpwL_pgA


[Edited on December 22, 2017 at 8:10 PM. Reason : sick motherfuckers]

12/22/2017 8:07:55 PM

Quote :

"This is a Propaganda Video produced by the North Korean government, advertising their Songdown Children's Camp"

http://time.com/3057664/you-can-send-your-child-to-summer-camp-in-north-korea/

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/881516/North-Korean-camp-children-US-war-nuclear-tensions-Trump-Kim-Jong-Un



[Edited on December 22, 2017 at 8:42 PM. Reason : nice try]

12/22/2017 8:39:09 PM

everything american media puts out on north korea is propaganda. they go in with the goal to show something dramatic and aren't open to showing the positives.

being a defector is a lucrative opportunity. as long as demand for a story is there, people will gladly sell it. I'm not saying these things don't happen in north korea but its easy to make a doco to show what you want to show. Conditions in the country are dire (we made them that way) so of course there is a lot of suffering.

i could make the same doco here in the us and pretend that it represents what the us government does to its people.

1. interview the vietnam vets that live between the dumpsters behind my building
2. interview the people that sleep in every storefront doorway before they are kicked out when the stoors open.
3. interview people who were kept in solitary confinement and tortured at pelican bay
4. interview people who were tortured and beaten while being held without trial at rikers island
5. interview 1 of the 100,000 homeless children in new york city
6. interview the family of eric garner
7. go to flint and test the water
8. interview people whose children have high levels of blood in flint
9. interview the families of innocent executed
10. interview those who were held and tortured by chicago police
11. interview people whose family died because of no healthcare



put it all together with blurred out images and dark music.

if it was the only thing you ever saw you would think the us was a terrible place

[Edited on December 22, 2017 at 9:00 PM. Reason : k]

12/22/2017 8:59:14 PM

There's a difference between you making a shitty documentary and the government making one and reputable journalists making one.

The above is not a U.S. government documentary.

You really need to get your head out of the sand with this journalist propaganda shit. This isn't Russia. The news isn't fake. People here actually care about the truth even if a decent portion of the population want to ignore it.

What on earth is your infatuation with North Korea being some utopia?

[Edited on December 22, 2017 at 9:49 PM. Reason : a]

12/22/2017 9:48:19 PM

i never said it was an utopia. In fact, I've stated on this page that its in a terrid state due to sanctions and famine.

Quote :

"The above is not a U.S. government documentary. "

~PBS kinda is tho but even if we talk about american journalism in a broad way...

Who do these "reputable journalists" work for?

I think you need to start paying attention to who owns and controls the "reputable media", what their goals are, and what biases they hold with respect to whatever story you are getting from them.

Quote :

"You really need to get your head out of the sand with this journalist propaganda shit. This isn't Russia. The news isn't fake. People here actually care about the truth even if a decent portion of the population want to ignore it."

The population of every country with propaganda says this so you wouldn't see it from the inside. If the people it was aimed at thought it was propaganda, then it wouldn't be good propaganda now would it? From the outside, I'd say that the American form of propaganda is the most controlling of them all.

I'm fascinated with North Korea because it is the ultimate ongoing case study on American hypocrisy.

12/22/2017 10:21:59 PM

Quote :

"I think you need to start paying attention to who owns and controls the "reputable media", what their goals are, and what biases they hold with respect to whatever story you are getting from them."

So you're of the opinion that the news is simply reporting whatever the owners of said news organizations are telling their reporters to report. That pretty much ends the discussion right there because you have absolutely no reason to believe that.

And don't confuse the actual journalism and reporting with the talking-head shows on 24 hour news channels. There is a large difference between the two and the talking heads spouting their nonsense does not take away from the actual journalism that is going on.

As for PBS specifically, no, it is not a government organization. I get why some people would think that but it's not. I'll get back to you on the journalist thing, in these Frontline shows they are using interviews and reporting and journalists from various organizations such as The Atlantic, The Guardian, Washington Post, etc.

Quote :

"I'm fascinated with North Korea because it is the ultimate ongoing case study on American hypocrisy."

I think I agree with you here but would you mind spelling out some of the specific hypocrisy just so I'm on the same page?

12/22/2017 11:06:40 PM

Quote :

" That pretty much ends the discussion right there because you have absolutely no reason to believe that."

Well there are a handful of companies that control almost all of our media and American executives are legally obligated to maximize profits. That is their only interest. Both systems are bad ideas but at least the government-controlled media outlets spread information in a way they think would benefit the country instead of corporate interests.
https://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~wright/ContemporaryAmericanSociety/Chapter%2019%20--%20The%20Media%20--%20Norton%20August.pdf

There are a lot of things going on.

1.Our news is under corporate control and the stories that are considered important are handpicked. There are a lot of really serious things going on in the world that go largely unreported. There may be too many to report them all so which ones do you choose? That question already injects bias of the people creating the news.

2. Journalists who work their way up in the ranks internalize the values of the company.

3. Everyone already grew up in an environment influenced by the media they consumed so they truly believe the system of propaganda is "truth".

Quote :

"I think I agree with you here but would you mind spelling out some of the specific hypocrisy just so I'm on the same page?"

Does hypocrisy in US foreign policy really need to be spelled out? There could be an entire course on it but the coprorate-controlled US government has always done whatever it could to expand its markets even when it has meant installing dictators. Its not about dictators its about imperialism but the propaganda machine literally has people thinking its "spreading freedom"

The US will travel to the other side of the world to destroy a population because it includes a few militants who hope to someday attack the US but North Korea has no right to even BUILD defense against the same troops on the border who destroyed their entire country in the past and vow to do it again (axis of evil).

Israel does though.

12/23/2017 4:57:08 PM

Quote :

"1.Our news is under corporate control and the stories that are considered important are handpicked. There are a lot of really serious things going on in the world that go largely unreported. There may be too many to report them all so which ones do you choose? That question already injects bias of the people creating the news."

What proof do you have of this? You cannot just make a blanket statement like that. You have absolutely no clue, insight into or understanding of how stories are picked to be displayed, where they are chosen to be displayed, when they are chosen to be run or published.

Legit question.

Is this because a story YOU find important as a viewer isn't shown on the front page? Because that has little to do with corporate ownership and everything to do with viewer psychology. That is not a top down attempt to control the media or the narrative or anything of that nature. That is self selection. Arguably speaking it's a form of natural selection. And it's based in large part on the education of the viewer.

What I think you may really be speaking about here is the idea that because a corporation is in charge and because you believe corporations are evil then a news outlet cannot do its job. I disagree entirely with this premise. In fact, I believe this thinking is literally what allows people to justify retreating into their ideological corners. And into their tribal safe havens.

Here's an example to support that. Mitch McConnell, a human being I detest and genuinely believe has done a tremendous amount of damage to the American system, did two things during his time as Senate Majority Leader. He refused to work with Democrats and Obama to do anything (which by the way forced Obama to essentially be the most autocratic President in history considering the number of executive orders he issued and his reactions regarding journalism). And he held up Supreme Court nominations, nominations that are supposed to ultimately end up as impartial guardians of our system.

The first aspect has furthered along the tribalism in this country. The second has almost guaranteed that going forward, no judge will ever be nominated unless his or her party controls things. Because I will bet on this: If Democrats take back the Congress in the mid term elections, no judge that Trump ever nominates will ever be confirmed. That is utterly terrifying on principle.

People are being forced, by virtue of Congress not being able to collaborate for the benefit of this nation, to fortify their ideological sides because the belief now is that unless you control everything you get nothing done. The mere fact that Congress has abdicated its responsibility for years now is literally causing people to be willing to cede power to the President. They now feel that because our elected representatives can't get things done then we have to give power to one man - the President - and allow him to do what he wants. It's why Democrats supported the insane amount of executive orders and assaults on journalistic freedom that Obama committed and it's why Republicans support the man who is likely going to go down as the most insane President we've ever had.

Let me just illustrate another way. If Republicans walked up to me right now and said we'll support impeaching Donald Trump if you let us nominate Marco Rubio or some other sane Republican in his place, I would agree to that immediately. You ask most people on the left that question? They'll say "only if we get a Democrat." You ask people on the right? Half will say "only if we get a Republican" and the other half will say "only if we get Steve Bannon." I'm in the middle. I say "give me progress, however marginal it may be, to move us towards a better state." Impeaching a racist, unintelligent and self conscious President, even if replaced by another Republican, would actually accomplish that. The "all-or-nothing" approach is literally destroying us.

This plays into the current assault on the FBI now. When the FBI was going after Clinton, the GOP loved them. When the FBI "cleared" her they hated them. Several weeks later when they reopened the investigation they loved them and then really loved them when Hillary lost. Now that the FBI is investigating a Republican suddenly they hate them again.

Mueller, Storzk, McCabe - They're all being eviscerated because of evidence of nothing else other than that some of them may actually be registered Democrats and vote Democrat and dislike our President. Big deal - I've had bosses I despised before. Not once did I ever do anything at work other than put my best effort forward and serve in their - and by extension, the company's - best interest. PLENTY of people are capable of doing their jobs perfectly well and impartially, irrespective of their political beliefs.

It's as if no one believes another person can do a good job or show impartial judgement unless that person thinks exactly like they do. That is utterly terrifying. What happens next? Political test to join the fire department because the district happens to be a red district? No Democratic voters allowed to be doctors in Republican towns? Can't hire a Republican to clean the floors at the local school because he may decide to not clean in front of the lockers of the children of Democrats?

This is the same thing you're saying with respect to the media. You cannot just assume or state that a media organization is one way because of the parent company and more importantly you can't just say that the journalists employed there are a certain way because of the media ownership. There are great journalists at Fox, CNN, MSNBC and on and on down the chain. There are likely some poor ones as well and as is obvious to any rational person, the talking heads are horrible on all of the networks.

More importantly, you cannot use imperfection as pretext for saying something is corrupt.

This is one of the most fundamental reasons we run our country on the rule of law - precisely to prevent people from being punished for no reason other than simply disagreeing with someone. The current state of affairs utterly terrifies me.

Quote :

"2. Journalists who work their way up in the ranks internalize the values of the company."

The company values get defined by many things. And over time in many cases you'll see the values of a company change as those very individuals work their way up into management positions. And into positions where they themselves can establish THEIR values. It's one of the reasons that so many companies are making a much larger deal about being socially responsible.

Quote :

"3. Everyone already grew up in an environment influenced by the media they consumed so they truly believe the system of propaganda is "truth". "

This is a weak leg on which to stand.

Quote :

"Does hypocrisy in US foreign policy really need to be spelled out? There could be an entire course on it but the coprorate-controlled US government has always done whatever it could to expand its markets even when it has meant installing dictators. Its not about dictators its about imperialism but the propaganda machine literally has people thinking its "spreading freedom""

This is an incredibly cynical statement. There are a very large number of people who work in our government doing everything they can to make this country and this world better. We've absolutely supported dictators before but corporatism is by far not the only reason and in most cases I'd argue not the sole reason. In certain areas/countries, probably, sure. Not the majority. What corporate interests were at stake in Vietnam? North Korea? Kosovo?

Imperialism would imply ownership of these countries. What United States is doing is trying to make the world a safer place for the United States. It just so happens that democracy (at least what we call democracy) does that. For China, communist autocracy being spread would do that. For Russia, basically authoritarianism would do that. At least our attempt to spread democracy is entirely linked with human rights, our faults not withstanding.

Quote :

"The US will travel to the other side of the world to destroy a population because it includes a few militants who hope to someday attack the US but North Korea has no right to even BUILD defense against the same troops on the border who destroyed their entire country in the past and vow to do it again (axis of evil)."

I would absolutely guarantee you that if North Korea stopped executing political opponents, eliminated the gulag system and stopped threatening to burn the United States to the ground, you'd see a far different political approach than that which exists currently.

Quote :

"Israel does though."

The United States doesn't want to destroy North Korea. We want them to liberalize, stop killing and torturing their citizens and join the world community. The countries in the Middle East want to kill every single, last Jewish person living on this planet. Yes, Israel deserves a right to defend itself. North Korea does not deserve the right to extort concessions from the world via the threat of nuclear weapons while simultaneously killing its population.

And just to circle back to the FBI for a minute - The FBI prosecutes cases that have evidence and that can be fought and won in court. They chose not to go after Clinton because they saw nothing there. They are investigating Manafort and all of these other guys because they see something there. They are not choosing their targets politically. The cases would literally fall apart in court if they were because you need evidence to win.

[Edited on December 23, 2017 at 11:08 PM. Reason : a]

12/23/2017 11:01:39 PM

Great post. I had to wait to get back to my computer.

Quote :

"Is this because a story YOU find important as a viewer isn't shown on the front page? Because that has little to do with corporate ownership and everything to do with viewer psychology. That is not a top down attempt to control the media or the narrative or anything of that nature. That is self selection. Arguably speaking it's a form of natural selection. And it's based in large part on the education of the viewer."

So it all comes down to the viewer? The viewer who was educated by the government. Do you see it now?

Quote :

"because you believe corporations are evil"

I don't believe they are evil, I believe they are only seeking to maximize profit. stories that would lead to less profit are censored.

Quote :

"The company values get defined by many things. And over time in many cases you'll see the values of a company change as those very individuals work their way up into management positions. And into positions where they themselves can establish THEIR values. It's one of the reasons that so many companies are making a much larger deal about being socially responsible. "

nah those values are only changing because the customer is demanding them to. no one really gave a shit about sexual harassment until recently.

Quote :

" What corporate interests were at stake in Vietnam?"

Everything that costs money has corporate interests behind it.

Dupont is a good case study because they make chemicals for bombs, atomic bombs, agent orange, and plastics/polymers for all sorts of stuff including kevlar for body armour. Anytime theres a war, they, and other companies like them such as boeing, all profit.

These companies then payback the politicians that go to war with nice kickbacks such as contributions or speaking fees.

Quote :

" North Korea? Kosovo?"

Nationalized industries are bad for corporations. Who gets to rebuild these places after they are destroyed? Who gets setup the government who sets the contracts? Who gets trade access to the natural resources?

Quote :

"Imperialism would imply ownership of these countries. What United States is doing is trying to make the world a safer place for the United States."

There is nothing unsafe in the US about what happens on the other side of the world. All of these "safety" issues are a result of this foreign policy. US is trying to expand the markets of their overlords. You won't find a US conflict that does the opposite. You will never find the US fighting on the side with a people that democratically elected a leader who wants to nationalize an industry. Just think about how the conflict with Iran began

Quote :

"Upon the refusal of the AIOC to co-operate with the Iranian government, the parliament (Majlis) voted to nationalize Iran's oil industry and to expel foreign corporate representatives from the country.[10][11][12] After this vote, Britain instigated a worldwide boycott of Iranian oil to pressure Iran economically.[13] Initially, Britain mobilized its military to seize control of the British-built Abadan oil refinery, then the world's largest, but Prime Minister Clement Attlee opted instead to tighten the economic boycott[14] while using Iranian agents to undermine Mosaddegh's government."

capitulate to corporations or the west is coming after you

Quote :

"I would absolutely guarantee you that if North Korea stopped executing political opponents, eliminated the gulag system and stopped threatening to burn the United States to the ground, you'd see a far different political approach than that which exists currently."

instead of having a chicken-egg argument, why not just extend the olive branch? The worst result of that is you end up giving them peace for nothing. The best result would be they learn from the positive relationship and begin to modernize (but at their own will which is what the US deems unacceptable).

In US foreign policy, western nations are the only ones who are mature and sophisticated enough to decide their own fate. All other nations are like children who must be disciplined for not choosing the one, correct, white way to run their country.

Quote :

" The United States doesn't want to destroy North Korea. "

the us already literally destroyed north korea and when we say "down with israel" or "down with the US" it doesn't mean we want to literally destroy it. It means we want to end the current, imperal, white supremacist power structure.

Quote :

"We want them to liberalize, stop killing and torturing their citizens"

The US kills and tortures far more citizens than north korea. The US allies itsefl with Saudi Arabia, one of the most brutal regimes on the planet. The US trades heavily with China who has the same type of prison system. Lets not act like that is what this is about.

Quote :

" and join the world community."

we kicked them out of the "world community". They did not self-sanction but they do believe in a culture of independence and no country should be forced to interact with anyone against their will. THAT is why it is imperialistic. They should be allowed to trade when and what they want to trade.

Quote :

"The countries in the Middle East want to kill every single, last Jewish person living on this planet. "

I wonder where you heard this? Where could one pick up something that is so wrong, so generalized, and so aligned with US foreign policy?

You seem like a smart guy up until this quote. Its odd that you haven't even bothered to notice they haven't killed the ones living in their own countries.

Quote :

"North Korea does not deserve the right to extort concessions from the world via the threat of nuclear weapons while simultaneously killing its population."

Funny coming from a nation that extorted concessions from the world by USING nuclear weapons WHILE simultaneously killing its population DURING an era of apartheid. That is a hypocrisy trifecta.


And extortion is a telling choice of word in the context of a country bargaining for their own sovereignty. Its telling because the US does treat the sovereignty of other nation's as something they have a say in.

12/26/2017 4:08:39 AM

Quote :

"I wonder where you heard this? Where could one pick up something that is so wrong, so generalized, and so aligned with US foreign policy? "

I was overgeneralizing, so apologies. But that was a statement based on the intentions of the leaders of the countries, not necessarily the entire populations themselves.

[EDIT: I went back and found, for instance, the 9 point plan from Ayatollah Khamenei in 2014. Turns out that they want the state of Israel destroyed but don't care about actually killing individual Jewish people. So thanks for correcting me.]

Quote :

"So it all comes down to the viewer? The viewer who was educated by the government."

Last I checked, you were free to gather information from anywhere you want in order to form the basis of your education and foundation of your beliefs. So I'm still not buying the government indoctrination story.

Quote :

"I don't believe they are evil"

I used evil for a more general feeling, I know you don't think they're evil. That was my fault. I think corporations seek to maximize profit, for sure. I think the majority of employees actually care about what they're doing, though.

Quote :

"no one really gave a shit about sexual harassment until recently. "

It is employees that are coming out and accusing their employers of sexual harassment that is changing this. Not customers. Customers weren't aware it was happening (at any specific company) until an employee walked out and said "this happened."

Quote :

"Anytime theres a war, they, and other companies like them such as boeing, all profit."

Fully with you on this. But show me actual evidence that they are in behind the scenes doing everything they can to push us to war. I'm not saying it's not there. I'm saying no one has brought this forth. I am certain that journalists would jump all over stories like this - it would virtually guarantee a pulitzer.

Quote :

"Who gets to rebuild these places after they are destroyed?"

What rebuilding has taken place in Kosovo? How many construction contracts have we signed in North Korea?

Quote :

"US is trying to expand the markets of their overlords. You won't find a US conflict that does the opposite. You will never find the US fighting on the side with a people that democratically elected a leader who wants to nationalize an industry."

Democratically elected governments tend not to nationalize their industries for many reasons, one being the fact that it virtually ruins their quality and productivity. Democratically elected nations also typically are aligned with US philosophy and morals so why would we go to war with them? Expanding markets is absolutely part of the equation. It is not the sole reason or even primary reason we go to war. Companies are expanding (and have been) market share just fine in China without war. Things are changing now because China is a growing threat to the region from a military standpoint.

Quote :

"capitulate to corporations or the west is coming after you"

I don't know a lot about the Iranian/British situation (that whole period that eventually led to the Shah). I'm really trying to restrict it to modern day America and its intentions. But I suspect this situation is far more complex than simply "they're taking our oil money." In fact I will bet it has WAY more to do with "we need a stable, secure and predictably economical source of oil for the functioning of our economy, our state and thus national security."

Quote :

"why not just extend the olive branch"

We've been doing that for 30 years with them for starters. Secondly, mutual trust is based on compromise and collaboration. They have refused to give up anything on their end. Finally, over the past 30 years, our "olive branch" policy has lead to where we are today. It hasn't accomplished anything aside from delaying conflict. And for all I know that was the plan all along - delay as long as possible.

Quote :

"the us already literally destroyed north korea"

You mean between 1950 and 1953? Or do you mean all of the time since where their government has treated their citizens like complete trash and done nothing to improve their lives? Not sure how the US has destroyed anything in North Korea.

Quote :

"The US kills and tortures far more citizens than north korea. The US allies itsefl with Saudi Arabia, one of the most brutal regimes on the planet. The US trades heavily with China who has the same type of prison system. Lets not act like that is what this is about. "

First, you make changes where you rationally can. We're not changing China. As for SA, they are actually changing slowly, but more importantly, SA guarantees the US its energy supplies. National security/state survival. Priorities first.

Quote :

"we kicked them out of the "world community"."

Yep. They're free to join any time they'd like. Just have to stop murdering and torturing and starving their citizens.

Quote :

"And extortion is a telling choice of word in the context of a country bargaining for their own sovereignty"

I didn't realize the US was trying to colonize NK and take away its sovereignty.

Anyway, the larger point I was making in my long (apologies) post was twofold:

1) Without legit evidence, you cannot just state that the media is telling its own narrative (again I refer to the actual journalists and stories, not the pundit shows).

2) Unless we get our act together with #1, we're simply going to fall further and further down the slope towards authoritarianism. May take 15 years, maybe 30. But the further we get from impartiality and evidence-based discourse, the closer we get to Stalin.

[Edited on December 26, 2017 at 12:58 PM. Reason : edit]

12/26/2017 12:54:28 PM

So defectors are coming into S. Korea from the area that they are performing their nuclear tests. Granted, S.Korea is probably adding their own amount of flair to these reports, but it sounds like Un's is poisoning is own people with his nuclear tests. There are reports of wells running dry after the latest one, reports of people coming in with what appears to be radiation exposure, etc.

Does the world have an obligation to stop this?

12/27/2017 11:41:15 AM

there are reports out now that one of the defectors had Anthrax antibodies in his system. I find it hard to believe that NK has resources to be vaccinating their soldiers against Anthrax, and Anthrax isn't native to that region of the world. Was the soldier a human guinea pig, or are they actually vaccinating soldiers against Anthrax?

12/27/2017 1:57:54 PM

Quote :

"I was overgeneralizing, so apologies. But that was a statement based on the intentions of the leaders of the countries, not necessarily the entire populations themselves. [EDIT: I went back and found, for instance, the 9 point plan from Ayatollah Khamenei in 2014. Turns out that they want the state of Israel destroyed but don't care about actually killing individual Jewish people. So thanks for correcting me.]"

This is still what a significant portion of the US population believes and thats not even the extreme portion. The evangelicals actually believe the Jews have to rebuild the temple before Jesus can return and let everyone into heaven. Basically the future of everyone's eternity is at stake if you don't let Israel take all of the land for themselves.

Quote :

"Last I checked, you were free to gather information from anywhere you want in order to form the basis of your education and foundation of your beliefs. So I'm still not buying the government indoctrination story."

Thats the beauty of propaganda. You are free to go somewhere else but that somewhere else's resources can't match the system. The vast majority of everyday people aren't going to double check everything they learned in school that night when they get home. Who has time for that? I learned in school that Columbus discovered America and that Watson and Crick discovered the structure of DNA.

Quote :

"I used evil for a more general feeling, I know you don't think they're evil. That was my fault. I think corporations seek to maximize profit, for sure. I think the majority of employees actually care about what they're doing, though. "

Every company has PR propaganda they show their workers and customers to convince them that they are not only ethical capitalists, but that they are enhancing society and the environment by making their profits.

Quote :

"Yet van Beurden devoted a surprising amount of time to addressing what he termed "the real and current threat of climate change," and he promoted Shell's own initiatives to reduce carbon emissions. The CEO implied that oil companies and conservationists could find common ground in a "skewed global debate" about the environment and oil production. "Global companies like Shell have a responsibility to speak up," about what van Beurden called "the potentially devastating effects of climate change." He backed growth in renewables, even as he acknowledged they were not yet sufficient to satisfy all the globe's energy demands."

Its about selling it.
https://www.cnbc.com/2014/09/05/shell-tries-to-spin-oil-into-a-green-as-in-the-environment-future.html

Quote :

"Fully with you on this. But show me actual evidence that they are in behind the scenes doing everything they can to push us to war. I'm not saying it's not there. I'm saying no one has brought this forth. I am certain that journalists would jump all over stories like this - it would virtually guarantee a pulitzer."

What? They are on the actual cabinets. Everyone knew about the Bush admin. You're waiting for someone to get caught on tape saying "We are just doing this to make money". These people aren't dumb. They are geniuses because they have people on the internet arguing over their right to rob the entire country/world.

Quote :

"one being the fact that it virtually ruins their quality and productivity"

this is coming directly from the propaganda. Large scale, important industries run much more efficiently and fairly under government control. Its funny that Americans give credit to our economy for the South Korean miracle when Park was an authoritarian who instituted a 5-year plan that involved nationalizing steel. Nationalized raw materals laid the groundwork for companies like Hyandai to take off. Americans always selectively omit these facts when they tell the story of Korea.

Quote :

"Democratically elected nations also typically are aligned with US philosophy and morals so why would we go to war with them? "

Park was not democratically elected and took over by coup that the US was against. The US still allied with him because at least he was supportive fo the chaebols (elite s korean families who owned everything and brought the US into the war).

Americans usually tell the story like this "the us created s korea which became rich because of capitalism while the north became poor because of socialism" when the truth is literally the opposite. North Korea was far ahead of poor south korea in the 60s because the chaebol were sucking everything dry. Park's coup was popularly supported and he made the chaebol system far more equitable which boosted worker productivity. The US did not do this.

Quote :

" Companies are expanding (and have been) market share just fine in China without war."

because china was too strong to conquer. We only pick on weak countries.

Quote :

"I don't know a lot about the Iranian/British situation (that whole period that eventually led to the Shah). I'm really trying to restrict it to modern day America and its intentions. "

and this is probably all you were taught. The selective history education I learned focused a lot on events that represented idealistic american history (bill of rights, etc), but intentionally left out all of the damning historical events.

This is like trying to have a discussion about racism with someone who only wants to focus on today's society. Without historical context, its going to be hard to understand.

Quote :

"We've been doing that for 30 years with them for starters. Secondly, mutual trust is based on compromise and collaboration. They have refused to give up anything on their end."

So in one quote you are arguing that the US has a right to assert its will accross the world to guarantee access to other people's oil for reasons of national secuirty.

In the very next quote you are saying that North Korea must compromise or "give up" something they do within their own borders to protect their national security. Do you see the double standard? Do you see the hypocrisy?

They want and deserve equal rights as a nation. If the US believes in a certain inernational code of conduct, it should lead the way with its actions before demanding others to follow suit. North Korea cannot be bought and will not give in easily like Gaddafi. They have seen history play out and have learned from it.

Quote :

"You mean between 1950 and 1953? Or do you mean all of the time since where their government has treated their citizens like complete trash and done nothing to improve their lives? Not sure how the US has destroyed anything in North Korea."

The US did the equivalent of "salting the land" at the end of the war. They ran out of targets and instructed pilots to make up targets and bomb farmland. The productivity of much of this land has still not yet recovered.

The bush administration used food as a weapon and influenced massive cuts of food aid to the people of North Korea.

Quote :

"Yep. They're free to join any time they'd like. Just have to stop murdering and torturing and starving their citizens."

After Soviett collapse, the west was offerring loans with offensive amounts of interest to north korea. Worse than the interest that has plagued african nations. That IS colonialism. North Korea decided they would rather keep their dignity and then floods and drought caused severe famine a few years later. They didn't verb starve their citizens.

Quote :

"1) Without legit evidence, you cannot just state that the media is telling its own narrative"

So where did you get all of your information? Why have you never heard about any of the historical events I described? The Shah? The Park Coup? What would "evidence" look like to you? They aren't lying. They are just conveniently leaving off anything that would expose the US/Capitalist position as hypocritical.

Quote :

"Does the world have an obligation to stop this?"

US circuit court says "NO"

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-alvarez/the-legacy-of-us-nuclear_b_586524.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States#Human_radiation_experiments

12/27/2017 2:45:11 PM

https://qz.com/1163140/us-nuclear-tests-killed-american-civilians-on-a-scale-comparable-to-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/

I hope everyone reads about the new results of this ASU study before posting anymmore "killing their own people" crap.

American media will not cover this at all so clicking the link is your only chance to find out

12/28/2017 5:34:09 PM

All the more reason to let North Korea and a bunch of other terrible countries get nuclear weapons!

Also, we typically attempt to correct our mistakes because, you know, we aren't a shitty country.

Quote :

"Congress eventually paid more than $2 billion to residents of nearby areas that were particularly exposed to radiation, as well as uranium miners. "

https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/07/16/156851175/five-men-agree-to-stand-directly-under-an-exploding-nuclear-bomb

Quote :

"The folks in St. George were repeatedly hit by uninvited fallout. Alex wrote me that in 1953, one test, codenamed "Harry" actually deposited quite a lot of fallout on St. George, to the point where residents were forced to stay inside for many hours, and prohibited from washing their cars until they became less radioactive. Over the years, says Alex, the U.S. government has paid some $813 million to more than 16,000 "downwinders" to compensate them for illnesses presumably connected to the bomb testing program. So it is clear that tests like these — often done to demonstrate the safety of nuclear weapons in the atmosphere — were not safe at all."

Quote :

"And the cessation of nuclear testing helped save US lives—”the Partial Nuclear Test Ban Treaty might have saved between 11.7 and 24.0 million American lives,” Meyers estimates."

But let everyone have nukes though!

I think I've now discovered my favorite statement when people like to criticize the United States today.

"The United States is just as bad, look what it did 60 years ago?"

As if we're still doing the same things now and as if somehow that prevents us from holding any moral standing in the present day.

[Edited on December 29, 2017 at 10:41 AM. Reason : a]

12/29/2017 10:24:52 AM

I realize I'm getting earled here, but I'm not sure why you're bringing up US nuclear testing. It is well known and has been well documented that our exploits have harmed a lot of people. Pretty sure the government acknowledges that as well, based on their payouts.

Does that make it right? No. But you're deflecting by bringing up the past. Should we let N.K. kill their own people because we did the same thing 60 years ago?

12/29/2017 10:43:47 AM

^Yep. For sure we still fuck shit up today but we are doing it less and with better intentions and goals.

We don't colonize anymore. We don't exterminate races (Native Americans for example) anymore. We continuously try to add more to the palate of human rights.

Would be nice to evolve, though. The idealists aren't wrong when they say that theoretically we should be able to all live in peace and harmony. What they are wrong about is the fact that humans aren't psychologically capable of that yet.

Hence a situation like North Korea. Are they rational for trying to get nukes? Absolutely. They don't want their regime to die. Should their regime die? Absolutely - it's utterly despotic, horrific and backward. Should we allow them to gain nukes and be in a position to threaten us? Absolutely not.

If we let them get nukes and stopped sanctioning them would they just turn nice? Absolutely not.

Anyway, I'll jump back into another thread because the point I ultimately was trying to make was really tangential to North Korea and was a larger statement in general.

I'll just say - I like the argument that the government somehow is pushing propaganda and preventing you from learning the truth. The people saying this must some how have some magical access to the truth that the rest of us don't have. If that's not the case, and it's all out there as I argue, then what's the issue?

[Edited on December 29, 2017 at 12:00 PM. Reason : a]

12/29/2017 11:59:10 AM

Pretty sure most of you will enjoy this.

12/29/2017 2:01:23 PM

Quote :

"Also, we typically attempt to correct our mistakes because, you know, we aren't a shitty country."

Paying people doesn't fix these kind of mistakes especially when you consider the amount paid being a drop in the bucket compared to the profits from unethical policies.

"We're going to ruin your lives to make a ton of money and then give you some of the tax money poor people pay us as compensation"

Reminds me of how when police officers shoot citizens and get away with it but the city pays the citizens off with the city money that already belonged to the citizens in the first place.

Quote :

" "The United States is just as bad, look what it did 60 years ago?""

That isn't that long ago and most of the policies/mindset that led to those events are still being used around the world. Also, not every country grows at the same rate. Just because the US committed its atrocities to get ahead early, doesn't discount them or give them a moral high ground over countries going through the exact same growth process today.

Its not just that though. The US atrocities have been much more potent and widespread than any other existing nation. We are talking about countries doing bad things to some of their people and comparing it with the US doing the same bad things on a global scale.

Quote :

"As if we're still doing the same things now and as if somehow that prevents us from holding any moral standing in the present day."

We are doing the same things and it does prevent us from imposing moral standards on others. If we want to talk about human rights, we need to clean up our human rights at home. Start with the prisons. This could easily be fixed if it was a moral priority. Then the treatment of native americans. Improve conditions on reservations to the national standard and give them more rights in the decision making process with regards to their lands (DAPL).

Then there is our whole policy towards Israel which literally just doubles down on our support for the atrocities you think ended 60 years ago.

Unauthorized drone strikes?

Unauthorized military operations in Syria, Yemen and who knows where else? We also blew up a DWB hospital. It doesn't get worse than that.

Then theres systemic racism in the US.

Quote :

"Should we let N.K. kill their own people because we did the same thing 60 years ago?"

Yes. We are not their parents and this "we won't let you make the same mistakes we made when we were your age" mindset is yet another manifestation of white supremacy.

Its the ongoing theme that other nations just aren't mature enough to manage themselves and that the West, as the superior culture, has to play the role of parent to prevent the world from going to chaos.

Quote :

"We don't colonize anymore."

Colonization is obsolete in a world of free market capitalism. All you have to do is make sure the markets are free and your corporations can accomplish the same goals the dutch east india company had in mind. Its called neocolonialism and the media has apparently done a great job blinding you to its obvious existance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism

Quote :

"We don't exterminate races (Native Americans for example) anymore. "

You typically only need to exterminate a race once. In today's world, we already have the land (except the israeli settlers) so we actually need brown people for cheap labor. Killing them would be counterintuitive when they already have lost all power. Giving land back would be the opposite.

Quote :

"They don't want their regime to die. Should their regime die? Absolutely - it's utterly despotic, horrific and backward."

Whats so backwards about it? You already acknowledged that they don't want their regime to die. They, just like the US, do what they have to do to maintain power. I don't think they do anything that is unwise to that goal or would lead to a loss of power. Please remind me if they do.

Quote :

"If we let them get nukes and stopped sanctioning them would they just turn nice? Absolutely not. "

They don't have to be nice to us. That shouldn't be a requirement to be a sovereign nation, but it is. They know all we want to do is extract profit from their labor and resources.

Quote :

"I'll just say - I like the argument that the government somehow is pushing propaganda and preventing you from learning the truth. The people saying this must some how have some magical access to the truth that the rest of us don't have. If that's not the case, and it's all out there as I argue, then what's the issue?"

Heres an example. Look at the front page of NYT then look at the front page of rt.com. Do this everyday for a few weeks. Most of the top stories will be completely different but all true based on things that are actually happening but each set of stories will leave you with a completely different outlook on what is going on in the world.

If you can see that foxnews delivers the news in a way that would craft certain opinions and uphold preconceived notions, then it shouldn't be that much of a stretch to believe that this concept is happening with all media.

Its just hard to notice media that upholds the biases you already hold. Asking someone which source they think is unbiased is the fastest way to discover their baises.

Quote :

"‘US is watching!’: Trump warns Iran amid crackdown on protests (VIDEO) ‘US is watching!’: Trump warns Iran amid crackdown on protests (VIDEO) Iran’s enemies ‘using money & weapons to undermine government’ – supreme leader Khamenei Iran’s enemies ‘using money & weapons to undermine government’ – supreme leader Khamenei Islamabad summons US envoy, calls emergency meetings after Trump’s 'no more' tweet Islamabad summons US envoy, calls emergency meetings after Trump’s 'no more' tweet Russian space producer breathes new life into single-stage carbon fiber rocket project Russian space producer breathes new life into single-stage carbon fiber rocket project New Russia-China pipeline doubles Beijing’s oil import capacity Iran reopens traffic with Iraqi Kurdistan S. Korea suggests high-level talks to N. Korea Seoul offers to hold high-level talks with Pyongyang ahead of Olympic games"

That was RT. Some words you will almost never see in MSM bolded

1/2/2018 3:48:57 PM

Somebody almost initiated the false flag too early. woops.

Quote :

"“BALLISTIC MISSILE THREAT INBOUND TO HAWAII. SEEK IMMEDIATE SHELTER. THIS IS NOT A DRILL,”"

I guarantee no one goes to jail for this because it was part of the plan

[Edited on January 13, 2018 at 5:11 PM. Reason : rev up fear WMD WMD OMG OMG WE ARE IIN DANGER LETS TO GO WAR]

1/13/2018 5:08:16 PM

Haha no one is about to stage a false flag attack on the United States but I'll say this. If somehow I am wrong, literally the most realistic scenario is Trump orchestrating it to prevent himself from becoming impeached or arrested.

1/13/2018 7:28:18 PM

They are lying

saying someone accidentally pushed a button during a shift change but there was also a "are you sure" confirmation that was pressed. the governor told that lie.

saying it took over 30 minutes to send another message that it was a false alarm. bullshit. 15 minutes is the time it takes for a missile to reach hawaii from north korea so the false alarm message went out conveniently aafter it mathematically had to be a false alarm. 38 minutes.

sirens also went off at military bases and those are on a different system.

don't buy the story that this was a freak accident that has never happened before but happens at the exact same time that north korea is toning down ahead of the olympics. this was fear mongering. when the threat you are presenting is not real you have to add a real element of fear to complement it.

[Edited on January 14, 2018 at 4:09 AM. Reason : ^this WAS the false flag]

1/14/2018 4:09:06 AM

Quote :

"If somehow I am wrong, literally the most realistic scenario is Trump orchestrating it to prevent himself from becoming impeached or arrested"

Trump isn't orchestrating shit through Hawaii state operations. Dems may have attempted to orchestrate a false flag to bait Trump into a response so that they can label him deranged and push for impeachment. It's also possible that someone hacked the system. I want to think the most likely scenario is some idiot low level employee working on a hangover fucked it all up, but I've read conflicting reports that both federal and state alert systems being activated.

1/14/2018 8:43:15 AM