Apparently the ncaa is going to use the old penalty matrix, which is good for unc

6/4/2015 1:52:02 PM

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/13012146/ncaa-charges-north-carolina-tar-heels-five-serious-violations?ex_cid=sportscenterFB

THIS JUST IN: NCAA has charged North Carolina Tar Heels with 5 violations connected to the school's long-running academic fraud scandal.

All five charges are considered Level I violations, described by the NCAA as a "severe breach of conduct.''

6/4/2015 1:52:59 PM

6/4/2015 1:53:06 PM

Quote :

"1. The NCAA charged UNC with providing impermissible benefits via academic counselors in the AFAM department and 10 athletes exceeding independent study course limits. 2. Jan Boxill, academic advisor to the women's basketball team, is alleged to have provided impermissible academic assistance to women's basketball players. 3. Deb Crowder, the administrative assistant to AFAM department head Julius Nyang'oro, violated ethical conduct by not assisting NCAA investigation. 4. AFAM department chair Julius Nyang'oro violated ethical conduct by not assisting with the NCAA investigation. 5. The NCAA charged UNC with a lack of institutional control for all of the above charges. "

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/25205083/ncaa-charges-unc-with-lack-of-institutional-control-in-academic-scandal

6/4/2015 1:55:59 PM

what I see in these quotes from the NOA pretty much cover the best I could have hoped for from an allegation perspective. I didn't honestly think they would go all in on the LOIC arguement.

6/4/2015 1:56:40 PM

LOIC does not mean at all that wins will be vacated in and of itself though future punishment would be larger.

Only way wins get vacated is for ineligible players and the NCAA has proven time and again they simply don't take down banners (see Syracuse last season)

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM. Reason : Guarantee Memphis skates for DRose if squid taught FTs]

6/4/2015 1:59:38 PM

They hammered Ohio State bad, but stopped short of vacating their Natty. But, on the other hand they took USC's title away. Not sure what happens to UNC.

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 2:00 PM. Reason : ]

6/4/2015 2:00:05 PM

The more I see of it and hear from the media, the more I think UNC is gonna weasel their way out of major hits.

1. Old more lenient penalty structure gets used.
2. No real findings against coaches, mainly admins.
3. They will probably plea down to get out of the LOIC specifically and just penalize themselves for lesser crimes.
4. WBB becomes the fall team, they can't beat UConn anyway so why not.
5. Focus only goes from ~2002 forward, not much about the 90's when more MBB players were in by proportion of the fake classes.

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 2:06 PM. Reason : 6. Putting the fake classes as an "Impermissible benefit", UNC will argue all students could get 'em]

6/4/2015 2:00:06 PM

^^ football is a different animal than basketball and taking money and real estate is different too.

Not sure it should be but it is.

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 2:08 PM. Reason : Though defining the fraud as impermissible benefits is interesting. if a BBall player is singled out]

6/4/2015 2:04:08 PM

^^Why does the older, more lenient penalty structure get used? Sources?

6/4/2015 2:07:24 PM

^Because UNC.

6/4/2015 2:09:11 PM

6/4/2015 2:09:33 PM

Did the same with Syracuse. I think they can still choose. The older one gives them more flexibility; which could be good or bad.

6/4/2015 2:09:35 PM

the investigation initially started before the new penalty structure took place so they grandfathered in basically.

6/4/2015 2:11:04 PM

Quote :

"^^Why does the older, more lenient penalty structure get used? Sources? "

My guess is because that's when the infractions occurred.

With that being said...it's still Level 1 penalties...which is 2-4 year postseason ban.

That ruins recruiting and I think forces Roy to retire if the bball team gets AT THE LEAST a 2 year ban. Roy can only win big with superstars...superstars that only plan on playing college basketball for one or two years. You're not going to get guys to come to UNC if they can't even play in the NCAA tournament. Shit, you're not going to get top 100 players to come play for you if you have a multi-year post-season ban...unless you're a lifelong UNC fan (and they've even been missing on those recently).

I also think it's the headshot for football (again, if they get a multi-year ban and loss of schollies). Fedora is just starting to get over a loss of scholarships. If he can muster a winning record this year, he's out of there with the first Division 1 just offered.


Honestly...I'm more worried that Roy retires and they actually get a good coach that wants to be the guy that "resurrects" UNC basketball after this fiasco. I think I'd much rather see Roy struggle through a couple sub .500 seasons while slowly turning in to Syracuse's mascot.

6/4/2015 2:13:49 PM

You sure about the 2-4? Syracuse also had Level 1 and the older penalties and only got the one year self-imposed ban.

6/4/2015 2:16:45 PM

Quote :

"Joe Ovies ?@joeovies 21m21 minutes ago RE: penalty structure. UNC should be happy it’s not the new matrix. Level 1 involves 2-4 year bans, 6-10 year probation, etc."

From what I'm seeing on multiple spots that 2-4 year thing is part of the new structure not the old, and since they are grandfathered in it wouldn't necessarily be in play. Also since they seem to indicate this was an administrative run game it will be hard to put specific penalties on any sport other than WBB which they are throwing under the bus.

To be honest our best hope is that someone from WBB turns state since they are gonna get hammered.

6/4/2015 2:17:04 PM

UNC should self impose a 2017 ban since they'll suck anyway.

6/4/2015 2:20:33 PM

Roy was smart enough to only verbalize his part in this and not put it in writing. He used his assistants, etc. as intermediaries. There is no fucking way golden boy didn't know, but proving it will be different.

Still, I could see him retiring in the next couple of months. Any recruits they were working on will now walk. I'll be extremely surprised if nobody de-commits. I'll also be extremely surprised if current underclassmen don't request a transfer. Hell, rising juniors may also. UNC basketball is going to be disrupted for years regardless of the outcome of the court hearings / penalties just based on the fear of them. Roy doesn't have much to gain by sticking around.

6/4/2015 2:23:54 PM

Quote :

"2. No real findings against coaches, mainly admins."

Coaches have been successful at keeping themselves blissfully ignorant.

The NCAA aren't the government, and while I'm sure their lawyers have told them to say nothing and Chapel Hill may have even been covertly making it worth their while to say nothing, I don't see how Crowder's and Nyang'oro's lack of participation can stick against the university when they're not employed by the university. Yes, that is a loophole, but the NCAA doesn't have subpoena power. It has to be either the State of North Carolina or the federal government that gets them to talk, and I don't think either will happen unless someone in the North Carolina state legislature wants a hearing a la baseball and steroids in Congress.

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 2:30 PM. Reason : .]

6/4/2015 2:26:01 PM

Quote :

"You sure about the 2-4? Syracuse also had Level 1 and the older penalties and only got the one year self-imposed ban. "

I misread the Ovies tweet. Thought he was saying that was the old structure...when he was just saying what they could have gotten under the new structure. Dangit...

6/4/2015 2:32:07 PM

daggumit jbrick

6/4/2015 2:38:28 PM

They can still get several years...it unfortunately not the minimum.

6/4/2015 2:44:17 PM

Quote :

"manalishi wrote: The gods are smiling... a scheduled afternoon debrief has been cancelled. Okay, a few items: -- Crowder and Nyan'goro were very specifically "encouraged" to not speak with the NCAA. Anything they could have said would have only made matters WORSE. (and yes, the rumors are that it was worse -- worse than what Wainstein found) UNC was willing to get slapped with the "failure to cooperate" tag twice, rather than risk having Crowder and/or Nyan'goro slip up in an interview. Think about that -- they'd rather have two guaranteed Level I infractions. Hmm. -- Regarding Tami, Fats, PJ, and a few other issues: Two reasons they were not included. One, the NCAA lacks subpoena power. And two, the years that would have been affected by those various issues/infractions were already encompassed by the impermissible academic benefits -- so when it came down to manpower and the legal hassles that would have been involved, it appears the NCAA chose the path of least resistance. -- There are a couple of very specific individuals who have been contacted by unc over the past 10 days (regarding the NOA, and how they should respond if/when questioned), who are NOT HAPPY. Again, we shall see. -- Regarding the redacted information... I do believe that there's a good chance unc is trying to pull a fast one over on the media. We shall see. There are a few more items -- with a couple having significant potential. Gonna hold onto them for a bit. Let's see who, if anyone, speaks up first."

Manalishi has been spot-on so far. Can't wait to see what else surfaces - not just what he has on the back burner, but what the NCAA has requested from UNC that may lead to more.

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 2:45 PM. Reason : love this guy]

6/4/2015 2:44:22 PM

I don't want this to ever end

6/4/2015 2:55:35 PM

This is the happiest I have been since we beat Villanova.

FUCK, I forgot to clock back in after lunch.

6/4/2015 2:58:29 PM

Starting to think the IUPUI scandal matches this most closely...and wins were vacated there.

6/4/2015 2:59:45 PM

Duke message board says they have inside information that UNC's legal team has essentially negotiated down to probation and a big fine because NCAA wants to avoid legal proceedings.

If UNC tried to take this to court, wouldn't that necessarily invoke subpoena powers and discover, etc.?

I really hope somebody in the legislature steps up and brings this to hearing.

There are also rumors floating around PP that some UNC big wig donors are hella pissed and might roll over on them (essentially what Manalishi was alluding to)

6/4/2015 3:04:48 PM

I haven't heard the Duke thing so I'm not going to comment on that, I don't think that is correct.

There is NO negotiation with the NCAA at this point. I have never seen a case where they put out a NOA and then retract parts of it.

The ship is sinking...and the more that I look, IUPUI matches up well buttttt add in the fact that the staff and all did not cooperate...it's been shown that if oyu dont cooperate with the NCAA they just assume you are guilty to the highest level.

As i've said...there's more out there and I still believe that the NOA released by UNC is missing stuff.

6/4/2015 3:10:50 PM

Pell Grant fraud for one thing

6/4/2015 3:12:29 PM

UNC can't "negotiate" shit, they have to go through the same process as everyone else with the NCAA.

If UNC gets out of this relatively unharmed, nobody in college sports has any reason to follow the rules. Basically the NCAA has to punish UNC or the NCAA will no longer exist.

The NCAA is on the line here alongside UNC. Do you think the NCAA will sacrifice itself to save UNC?? Fuck no.

Also don't forget about Pell Grant Fraud, ongoing lawsuit/s and the SACS investigation.


I think this article also points out some very harsh realities:

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/editorials/article22374144.html

Quote :

""This is a public institution that in the course of this humiliating scandal has obfuscated, rationalized and acted with arrogance in terms of its obligations to the public.""

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 3:18 PM. Reason : _]

6/4/2015 3:13:28 PM

Am I reading this wrong that it will be the new structure?

Quote :

"Powell Latimer Powell Latimer – ?@PowellLatimerNR Cunningham confirms: #UNC gets adjudicated under new structure, tried with penalties under OLD structure. Again: old is much more lenient."

6/4/2015 3:18:25 PM

haha what if it all came together?

UNC gets the ban hammer in all revenue sports, recruiting pariah, coaches quit, only shitty coaches will take the job.

SAC takes away accreditation.

NC State becomes the new flagship school.

^^adjudicated vs. tried. they will face old structure penalties but the language is under new structure.

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 3:19 PM. Reason : .]

6/4/2015 3:18:46 PM

6/4/2015 3:19:15 PM

SMU was tried adjudicated under the old system...

[Edited on June 4, 2015 at 3:21 PM. Reason : _]

6/4/2015 3:19:22 PM

Thx. Fucking impossible to get any work done now

6/4/2015 3:22:08 PM

I've been on lunch for 3 hours now.

6/4/2015 3:22:50 PM

They are totally fucked.

6/4/2015 3:27:33 PM

I'm glad it's a slow day at work.

6/4/2015 3:27:33 PM

From the ESPN article:

Quote :

""Although we may identify some instances in the NCAA's notice where we agree and others where we do not, we are committed to continue pursuing a fair and just outcome for Carolina,'"

Will UNC actually try to argue this? If I was them I would shut the hell up and take the shaft like a man.

6/4/2015 3:28:55 PM

man, Pack Pride and all the Scout forums have the worst format ever. it's so hard to decipher what's new when it's all requotes of requotes of requotes

6/4/2015 4:06:32 PM

Still better than reddit

6/4/2015 4:10:33 PM

6/4/2015 4:18:12 PM

I purposely didn't post that cartoon last week

6/4/2015 4:30:51 PM

I keep seeing the media guys saying "no players were named ineligible" yadda yadda

They are idiots...the first thing listed on the allegations is that players were given impermissible benefits by being enrolled in those classes.

benefits = ineligible = vacated wins if they played in those games

we have to hope that ONE...just ONE UNC player was on the bball team during those years and got impermissible benefits.

the IUPUI incident most closely relates to this...and that's just 2/5 things that UNC got notice of.

6/4/2015 4:33:50 PM

We already know that 4 out of 5 starters on the 2005 team were enrolled in AFAM. When I get home I will find the reference.

6/4/2015 4:35:14 PM

it's been like an F5 fiesta on my keyboard since about 12:30 pm today.

6/4/2015 4:37:40 PM

But we need to see if they were enrolled in excess of the 12 hour rule in those independent study courses or whatever it was.

Where is the Peppers transcript...see if it list him as over 12..if so then there goes those wins.

6/4/2015 4:38:36 PM

6/4/2015 4:44:05 PM

Do we really need the athletes to fall below the minimum eligible GPA for them to be declared ineligible? The fact that they cheated should get them disqualified.

6/4/2015 4:47:32 PM