Quote :

"Leaf will be far worse off, because I believe they have to use all 22 kWh to get the highly variable range that drivers will get with the car. That will start to diminish, I suspect pretty soon after delivery."

That may be true, but I'm inclined to think otherwise. Using a battery's full capacity for energy storage damages the battery in no time. I'm pretty sure that almost every hybrid or electric car on the market has software that does not allow the battery to be run down below 20% or charged above 80%. I could be off a little on the numbers.

10/28/2010 2:03:23 PM

^^It's advertised as 40 miles on the 10.5kWh. Of course, no one will know the real-world mileage. Same uncertainty applies to Leaf though.

10/28/2010 2:07:13 PM

Part of Nissan's guarantee on their platform is that the battery will maintain at LEAST 80% capacity for the full 8 years it's under warranty.

It does (the Leaf) do full 0 to 100% charge and discharging.

10/28/2010 2:09:23 PM

Quote :

"^^It's advertised as 40 miles on the 10.5kWh. Of course, no one will know the real-world mileage. Same uncertainty applies to Leaf though. "

Its like he doesnt even read the posts before he responds...

The Volt would have about a 60 mile range if they opened up the battery for complete discharge. They didnt. They wanted the driving range to be consistent through-out the normal life of the car. They didnt want people whining about the car only going X number of miles instead of Y two years after ownership. So, they retain extra cells for when the overused ones wear out. Its not complicated to understand this.

So far, most all the reviews have been reporting about a 40 mile average. When they did a contest to see who could hypermile the best, there were those that approached 60 miles on a charge. So its obviously going to depend on how you drive the car, just like how you drive your car now will change the MPG.

[Edited on October 28, 2010 at 3:09 PM. Reason : .]

10/28/2010 3:07:49 PM

Interesting related Consumer Reports article:

Quote :

"Consumer Reports: 39% of consumers will consider a hybrid or plug-in for next car [w/poll] by Autoblog Staff Recently, Consumer Reports conducted a random, nationwide survey of 1,700 vehicle owners. Questions focused on green vehicle technologies and buyer motivation. The survey aimed to uncover what motivate buyers to consider buying a green vehicle for their next car. CR is still analyzing the findings, but has released some early numbers: -51 percent of those surveyed say that being green plays an important role in choosing their next car. -Being green ranked 11th out of the 12 factors that influence buyers. Top factors that influence buyers included quality, price, and value. -More than a quarter of those surveyed cited reducing U.S. dependence on foreign oil as a primary motivator for considering a green vehicle. -63 percent of respondents report traveling less than 40 miles a day. -39 percent of those surveyed will consider a hybrid or electric vehicle for their next car purchase. -Among those respondents, 60 percent lean towards a conventional hybrid and just 14 percent list a battery-powered vehicle as a possible next car. According to the survey, buyers perceive that electric vehicles (EVs) have distinct disadvantages compared to conventional autos. Some of those surveyed are hesitant to purchase battery-powered cars due to the vehicle's inherent range limitations, but others remain concerned that EVs lack sufficient power, cargo space and passenger capacity to satisfy their needs. While the power and space issues aren't legitimate concerns with most dedicated EVs, these results suggest that buyers are unwilling to sacrifice anything that they've grown accustomed to with conventional autos as they consider moving over to electric power. Of course, it also bears noting that 'consideration' doesn't necessarily translate to increased sales. Surveys like this one have been conducted numerous times in the past with results suggesting that a good percentage of consumers would be open to hybrid cars and trucks, but gas-electric vehicle sales in the U.S. have been mired at less than three percent of the total market since they came on the market."

Here's a poll Autoblog had linked to the article:

Quote :

"Will you consider a hybrid or plug-n for your next purchase? Take our poll below and tell us how you feel. Will you consider a hybrid or plug-in when purchasing your next new vehicle? A hybrid or a plug-in is the only type of vehicle I will consider 85 (4.0%) Yes, I will consider hybrid and plug-in models 819 (38.5%) No, I will not consider hybrid or plug-in models 1061 (49.9%) I'm not sure 163 (7.7%) "

[Edited on October 28, 2010 at 3:35 PM. Reason : spacing]

10/28/2010 3:34:46 PM

Quote :

"Some of those surveyed are hesitant to purchase battery-powered cars due to the vehicle's inherent range limitations, but others remain concerned that EVs lack sufficient power, cargo space and passenger capacity to satisfy their needs. While the power and space issues aren't legitimate concerns with most dedicated EVs, these results suggest that buyers are unwilling to sacrifice anything that they've grown accustomed to with conventional autos as they consider moving over to electric power. "

This is what I expect to change. Unless you are in the 20% of the population that tries to stay somewhat informed, you probably know very little about how something like the Volt or Leaf works to actually make knowledgable decisions. I think as they start to hit the road, the population will become much more educated, and leave some of the incorrect assumptions about electric vehicles behind.

10/28/2010 3:42:46 PM

Quote :

"-51 percent of those surveyed say that being green plays an important role in choosing their next car."

Interesting to see how being "green" went from "hippy" to "hip" over the course of the last decade

10/28/2010 4:04:12 PM

Well, my intended purchase of the Volt isnt because I am trying to be green. Wanting an EV does not necessarily include being an envirofreak.

10/28/2010 4:07:13 PM

^^^considering that plenty of people are unaware if there car is FWD or RWD or even how many cylinders their engine has!...I'd say we have a long way to go in education. Of course the vast majority of these baffoons simply don't care.

^^

Quote :

"-51 percent of those surveyed say that being green plays an important role in choosing their next car. -Being green ranked 11th out of the 12 factors that influence buyers. Top factors that influence buyers included quality, price, and value."

That's kind of odd to me, as they seem like opposing thoughts from the same group of polled people? Given that the hybrid car market is only 3% of the total US vehicle market I wouldn't necessarily call it "hip".

[Edited on October 28, 2010 at 4:10 PM. Reason : k]

10/28/2010 4:09:59 PM

Well, hollywood seems to shape the 'hip' market, and it seems like many of the stars are driving around in their hybrids instead 200k super cars that gets GPM instead of MPG.

10/28/2010 4:15:56 PM

Well, it's nothing new that hypocrisy flows out of Hollywood like oil out of Saudi Arabia...

10/28/2010 4:18:20 PM

heheh. Yup.

10/28/2010 4:33:32 PM

not just in cars, but in general..

people grow vegetable gardens and commute on bikes and drink out of reuseable bottles and circlejerk around trees and do all this other stuff that 10 years ago was for "treehuggers" only. Now it is a cool thing to do. I agree it's good for us as a society, it is just fascinating to see the attitudes change.

10/28/2010 4:37:22 PM

it's funny to listen to people complain about how EV's are going to be underpowered. Electric motors are going to produce so much smooth torque at low speeds that they will have incredibly fast takeoffs. they won't have much on the top end, but most people don't need a lot of power after they have their vehicle up to operating speed.

10/28/2010 4:55:30 PM

Quote :

"Now it is a cool thing to do"

So says you. I work for a company that sells energy efficiency products and systems. And the majority of my co-workers and managers (technically minded people) think the whole "green movement" and "carbon footprints" are a load of crap (myself included).

10/28/2010 7:17:03 PM

It is a load of crap. It's a marketing scheme that people with no technical knowledge buy into.

On that note 3 chevy volts are infront of the progress energy building on fayettville st. today with mnf tags so it looks like they are going to be giving rides or demonstrations or something.

11/1/2010 7:57:00 AM

PGN has been pretty big in the electric car push (for obvious reason). We're supposed to get 12 of them as part of a commercial pilot program, and the ones downtown today are for test drives.

Quote :

" Progress Energy to test 12 Volts 10/29/2010 John Murawski, Raleigh News & Observer Oct. 29, 2010 Progress Energy is adding a dozen Chevy Volts to its growing stock of experimental electric cars. The Raleigh-based electric utility will test 12 Volts in its service areas in North Carolina, South Carolina and Florida. Progress will use the cars in a variety of utility service roles for two years, collecting data on driving range, recharging and other issues related to electric cars. The sight of Progress employees zipping around town in the new Volts will provide free marketing for Chevy's electric car. The Volts will begin to be sold commercially this year in selected areas of the country, but it will be at least a year before the car will be sold in North Carolina. For those who want to test drive the super-hyped super-efficient Volt, Progress will have several Volts available Monday at its downtown Raleigh headquarters at 400 Fayetteville St. The Volt also is scheduled to be shown at IBM's Research Triangle Park campus Monday afternoon - to acknowledge IBM's software contribution to the Volt's design. The Volts for serious testing purposes will be delivered to Progress in early 2011. The Volt can be recharged from a wall outlet and by an on-board gasoline powered generator. Progress is participating in a nationwide federal program that will supply more than 100 Volt cars to electric utilities around the country. The program is subsidized by more than $30 million in federal stimulus funds. Progress has been testing electric cars for about three years."

11/1/2010 9:27:20 AM

GM had a PR thing for the Volt in DC over the weekend. I saw a couple driving around. They're pretty good looking cars IMO.

11/1/2010 4:00:33 PM

Volt has been named the Motor Trend Car of the Year.

11/16/2010 3:16:19 PM

when do you get yours?

11/16/2010 3:17:16 PM

They are not being sold in NC during the first run. I could go to DC to get it, but then my ass would be hanging out in the wind if something goes wrong. I am having to sit tight for probably one more year until they are out here. Will be better for me anyway, because dealerships are placing a high premium on the price in a lot of locations.

I am running my Z3 ragged, in any event. I am hoping to get over 270k miles on it by the end of NEXT year.



[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 3:25 PM. Reason : .]

11/16/2010 3:24:34 PM

Seems odd that Motor Trend would crown a vehicle "car of the year" that you can't even purchase on a nationwide level. Though I did drop MT's subscription for a reason.

11/16/2010 3:55:53 PM

They car of the year'd the Chrysler 300 and ford Thunderbird IIRC. LOL

11/16/2010 4:06:09 PM

If TWW garage would have picked a car of the year, I'm sure e30 M3 would have been car of the year for the 2010 as well as every other year in the last couple of decades, while Cummins-powered Dodge Ram would be the truck of the year and FJ40 Land Cruiser would have been SUV of the year cause those were made to perform and they have not made a vehicle that defined the class or set another class of its own ever ever since and everything was slow porky and all for show but we are so raw and refuse to accept anything outside that status quo rawr rawr!

oh an anything nissan would have been the junk of the year

[Edited on November 16, 2010 at 5:06 PM. Reason : .]

11/16/2010 5:01:12 PM

http://gm-volt.com/2011/01/27/gm-announces-nationwide-chevy-volt-rollout-plan/

Volt is going to be available in NC by end of 3rd quarter. My desire to get the car in the third quarter will depend on the availability of the $350 lease price, and dealerships not marking beyond MRSP. I may, alas, still have to wait until 2012.

They have also announced planning to build 120,000 of these for the 2012 model year!!

1/27/2011 11:43:05 AM

Ah, so it won't be so long till they're clogging up I-40 with the slug-like Priuses then

1/27/2011 1:28:29 PM

I dont mind the Prius on the road. Its the hypermilers that I wish would stay off the road.

1/27/2011 2:54:36 PM

Bump

5/12/2011 12:56:35 PM

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/05/11/the-rare-earth-conundrum/

5/12/2011 2:05:13 PM

I didn't think these were for sale in the Southeast yet but I saw my first one today on Airport Blvd. And oddly enough saw a second one a few hours later on Davis Drive.

They looked like tanks to me

5/12/2011 3:19:17 PM

GM is way behind at producing them at the numbers they released. To date, about 2000 have been sold. Its not a lack of demand, but production. I am not sure how much the tsunami affected this...

5/12/2011 3:30:25 PM

^^^ i saw that they reference this article, which is interesting: http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/37344/

5/13/2011 8:26:33 AM

Its a bad article on a lot of levels... They are making a lot of bad assumptions, including the people doing the research.

1) We will never be all electric. Making the argument that available rare earth supply is a sufficient reason to have electric cars is uber stupid. We could make that argument, with different time frames, for practically all energy sources for transportation. The argument electric car proponents need to state reciting is that 'Diversification through electric cars is key, not the complete removal of all gasonline cars.' Diversification won't stop with electric. It can include CNG/LNG, fuel cells, etc. Once we start to diversify the grid, when one source of transportation energy gets tight, people will have options to go to another source.

2) Yes, the source of the rare earth is mainly out side of the U.S. But once the battery is built, what powers the car is made entirely in the U.S.A. That means the U.S will capture much more internal returns from the use of electricity to keep it charged than it would other sources of fuel.

I take a lot of the mining estimates with a grain of salt, gleaming from the oil industry that you dont really know whats in the ground, or how much you have of it, until you start to mine/drill.

[Edited on May 13, 2011 at 1:55 PM. Reason : .]

5/13/2011 1:52:41 PM

^Good luck getting those mining permits in the US.

Quote :

"The argument electric car proponents need to state reciting is that 'Diversification through electric cars is key, not the complete removal of all gasonline cars.' Diversification won't stop with electric. It can include CNG/LNG, fuel cells, etc. Once we start to diversify the grid, when one source of transportation energy gets tight, people will have options to go to another source. "

Agreed!

[Edited on May 13, 2011 at 3:06 PM. Reason : k]

5/13/2011 3:05:55 PM

Yeah honestly i think it would be awesome to see large scale nuke powered ethanol distilleries.
That way we keep our highly concentrated power/volume that we currently have but negate the fact that ethanol requires about the same amount of energy to make as it does offers to automobiles.

Technically nuke cars would be awesome but anything that can easily be made into a dirty bomb is never going to happen.

We need something else with the energy density of fossil fuels that is cheap to make per unit of energy and is clean and efficient. If the energy density is too high then it becomes a weapon danger, if it is too low travel distances will suffer.

5/13/2011 3:21:13 PM

Just saw nissan has only sold 53 leafs(leaves) whatever. I wouldn't think gm is doing any better.

These junks will not take off

5/13/2011 11:37:21 PM

Unfortunately your making the same stupid assumption a lot of other people are making. The fact that initial production numbers are low has very little to do with demand. Biggest problem for both of these cars is the tsunami. They can sell everyone they can make.

And your numbers are way wrong. Leaf and volt sold around 500 units in April.

5/15/2011 9:45:04 PM

Quote :

"Just saw nissan has only sold 53 leafs(leaves) whatever. I wouldn't think gm is doing any better. These junks will not take off "

Nissan presold their first 25,000 leaf production run in a few hours. They've only DELIVERED a few hundred, but that's a big difference.

I just got my Leaf reservation accepted. Still deciding whether to order, if I do, I'll get mine sometime in fall of 2012.

5/15/2011 10:04:26 PM

I would never buy an electric-only car. Gotta have that gasoline-hybrid backup for if I want to actually go somewhere in it.

The Volt is too expensive.

I would consider a Prius, particularly once they make it a plug-in hybrid, assuming the cost stays about the same...

...but a VW TDI seems pretty compelling, and is cheaper than either a Volt or a Prius.

[Edited on May 15, 2011 at 10:17 PM. Reason : i don't know why we don't get with the program on diesels.]

5/15/2011 10:16:42 PM

Quote :

"Just saw nissan has only sold 53 leafs(leaves) whatever"

Where did you "just" see that? B/c I saw over a month ago that they'd sold over 4,000. And what CarZin/Noen said...

5/15/2011 11:37:46 PM

I have to tell you, I'm a little irritated people are comparing the Volt to Prius. I went and test drove a new Prius in a dealership the other day. It was the saddest shittiest car I have ever sat in. The interior is all monotone. No design AT ALL. The dash board display is the most boring 2 color display I have ever seen. The leather interior is the crappiest interior that I wouldnt want in a 10,000 car, let alone a 28k car. You couldnt even get an iphone/bluetooth connectivity without buying their crappy navigation package which was way overpriced (would put the car over 30). It really is a sad sad car meant for people that absolutely do not care whatsoever about creature comforts or luxury. And on the price, by the time you get the Prius loaded to levels comparable to the Volt, you will spend over 30k. The Volt is going to be around 34k after the government rebate. For 4k extra, the choice between the 2 is obvious. You pick the Volt.

In comparison, and admittedly not having sat in a Volt yet, this looks to be the polar opposite of the Volt. The Volt interior looks to be well appointed and designed with tons of standard features that they dont nickle and dime you for.

[Edited on May 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM. Reason : .]

5/16/2011 9:58:30 AM

I've sat in both Volt and Prius (probably the higher trim of the prius because it had leather/vinyl seating) and I can not say that Volt feel any more luxurious or better put togeter. Volt does have some switly accents in the doors and 2nd gen iPod-inspired center console, but it does not have a luxury car feeling to it. We will have to wait on the BMW/Fisker/Rolls royce electric rollouts for a first luxury electric sedan. Tesla model S is looking good too. As far as interior, my bet is on the BMW i8 for the most futuristic-looking, and RR for the most classicaly luxurious one.

5/17/2011 9:31:30 AM

^^ to be fair, the mp3 player/bluetooth connectivity that comes with most cars is usually not very good for the price paid anyway imo. If I ever even considered buying a car new, I'd rather buy the car without it, pick out my own after-market and install a (usually) better, more customized system for cheaper.

5/17/2011 11:03:38 AM

I'm betting these will all be junked and obsolete by 2020. Then again most cars are these days.

5/17/2011 12:45:21 PM

ha!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j0sCCJFkEbE

Quote :

"Well, as you may have guessed, some General Motors execs aren't too thrilled that Nissan has taken a public shot at the Volt. Autoevolution says that in a "rare, but delicious unofficial reply on Twitter," GM's Executive Director of Product and Technology Communications, Jason Laird, tweeted: "A carmaker poking gentle fun at our product ignores tow trucks they need and rental cars they recommend as backup to their product." On the other hand, GM spokesman Rob Peterson, called the commercial "cute," but says that it's "misleading and damaging to the electric vehicle movement," according to Autoevolution."

5/31/2011 7:27:16 PM

Misleading but awesome commercial.

6/1/2011 1:27:09 PM

I don't see the need for picking out the Volt in that commercial, in fact I feel like it would've been better if the Volt wasn't in it...

6/1/2011 1:39:45 PM

It would be hilarious if GM came out with an ad showing that the fastest way to charge a Nissan Leaf is, in fact, to tow it behind another vehicle.

6/1/2011 1:50:22 PM

It would be more funny if GM made a decent car and kept their mouths shut.

6/1/2011 7:58:04 PM

what a stupid fucking ad.

6/2/2011 10:57:47 AM