Quote :

"are either of them Julius Hodge?"

Harrow could be better than Hodge or worse. It is gay to ask a question like that at this point.




[Edited on February 16, 2010 at 5:11 PM. Reason : sf]

2/16/2010 5:10:45 PM

Quote :

"but I don't think Chris Wright is Ryan Harrow"

What do you mean by this?

Wright was more highly regarded and recruited than Harrow.....

[Edited on February 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM. Reason : V Nobody but us was after Harrow....]

2/16/2010 5:12:56 PM

No he wasn't. He was a **** on Scout. Big time prospect but not Top 30 like Harrow.

But I'd take Harrow performing next year like Wright is this year in a heartbeat.

^ maybe at the beginning of their recruitment but Harrow is definitely a higher level prospect... you know I'm not one to shit on recruits just because they don't come here, but he really was.

[Edited on February 16, 2010 at 5:17 PM. Reason : x]

2/16/2010 5:14:21 PM

Hoyas are 2-6 when Wright scores single figures

undefeated when he scores 10+

he is the #1 key to their success

2/16/2010 5:17:30 PM

so you're saying he's like our Dennis Horner

2/16/2010 5:18:19 PM

bingo!

2/16/2010 5:18:52 PM

i would say that a guy cant be that great of a player if he's scored under 10 points in 8 games but he plays for a team that runs the princeton which means they might score 37 points in some games so idk

2/16/2010 7:31:09 PM

I just want to note that I've learned a hell of a lot by having read and continuing to read these two threads.

And I vote that they should not be consolidated.

2/16/2010 7:48:58 PM

^^ or....they could put up 103 on then #2 Villanova and 89 on then #7 Duke

2/16/2010 10:03:20 PM

I just want to say how completely ridiculous it is that people say this team isn't competing hard or giving effort.

We are out talented at every single position compared to UNC and they have been getting waxed just as regularly if not more than we have. We played GT really tough and UNC is getting hammerfaced.

Don't think UNC outtalents us?

Okay:

PG: Drew is a better PG than Javi. Not by a LONGSHOT, but overall he's better. They are pretty much equal across the board but Drew has a 2:1 ast/to while Javi is very turnover prone.

SG: Ginyard is much better than Degand. Neither are stellar on offense, but Ginyard is a defensive stopper and overall a better player across the board.

SF: Graves is slightly better than Wood at this point. I think Wood will end up much better, but at this point he is a more complete player and surprisingly just as good of a shooter as Wood in the GAMES, although I know Wood will mature and his shooting superiority will start to translate to better production eventually.

PF: This is a joke. When they had Ed Davis they had a bonafide lottery pick. When they have John Henson they have a future lottery pick. Either is leaps and bounds better than Dennis Horner. Both are defensive studs and each is as effective on offense as Horner.

C: The one place we have an advantage. Tracy Smith is obviously better than Deon Thompson. However, the advantage is relatively slight, it's not like it's a complete mismatch where UNC has to gameplan around it. Deon holds his own in the matchup enough that our starting lineup is completely swallowed by UNC's overall.


Bench guards: Strickland and McDonald are both quality players who give solid minutes and can have positive impacts on the games. CJ and Mays are both non-quality players who have an IMPACT on the games alright.

Bench forwards: The Wears are both quality players, nothing special but they give decent minutes. They lose a lot of depth here with Davis and Zoeller beigrng out forcing starter minutes out of Henson but these guys are not a glaring weakness. When healthy Howell, Davis, and Painter are a slight advantage though with Howell's injury this is really a push.


There you go, UNC is still more talented than us by a good margin. We have virtually the same ACC results they have this season. They have beaten VT, State, and State we have beaten Duke and FSU.


Look, I was fed up by the lackadaiscal effort by Costner and Fells too. I don't miss watching those games. Everyone on here said they couldn't wait til they were gone because even if we sucked at least our guys would play hard. Now, we have shitty overally talent and the guys ARE playing hard and everyone wants to bitch and say they aren't giving enough effort.

2/16/2010 10:09:46 PM

Quote :

"this is literally Lee Fowlers logic too. which i happen to be agreeing with at the moment. b/c I don't want to 'start over' again so quick."

God I hope so, b/c in that case he'd accept that he fucked up and fire himself instead of Lowe (if it came to that).

2/16/2010 10:14:11 PM

Quote :

"There you go, UNC is still more talented than us by a good margin. We have virtually the same ACC results they have this season. They have beaten VT, State, and State we have beaten Duke and FSU."

are you seriously trying to use this as reason that sid is a good coach? all this proves is that unc is more disappointing than us, which i dont think anyone would argue. I mean, they still basically slaughtered us twice, 2nd time w/ multiple injuries for unc.

and personally, except for a few games such as VT, i havent been busting them b/c of lack of effort. they just sucks balls. but they are lowe's players so he has to take some responsibility for his evaluation/recruiting. i mean it took him until deep in the season to bench vandenburg!

2/16/2010 10:20:06 PM

^^^yup. i was always peeved during game threads when people would whine about how the team has given up, stopped believing in lowe, not giving any effort, etc.

not hitting shots or having poor guard play /= no effort

the team sucks this year, but in no way has it been because of lack of effort

[Edited on February 16, 2010 at 10:21 PM. Reason : ]

2/16/2010 10:20:33 PM

so, do UVA, Maryland, VT, GT, Clemson, Northwestern, Florida, Arizona, etc also have better talent than us at every position? or is that strictly a UNC thing?

2/16/2010 10:29:04 PM

better talent at the guard positions? yes.

have we still underachieved this season? yes, but hardly. any talent we do have (besides our best player) is all freshmen.

2/16/2010 10:32:51 PM

i was referring to rally's post about UNC being better than us at every position and that is why they beat us

2/16/2010 10:35:46 PM

Yes all of those teams mentioned have better overall talent than us besides Northwestern and Arizona (which does have more talent if you subtract Tracy).

Thanks for illustrating my point.

[Edited on February 16, 2010 at 10:38 PM. Reason : a]

2/16/2010 10:37:28 PM

^dont feel like playing with me?

2/16/2010 10:40:49 PM

at EVERY position? that was the argument....that UNC had better talent at every individual position. the question I pose is whether the teams I listed have better talent at every individual position

2/16/2010 10:41:55 PM

well to give the guy a break, he did say smith was better than thompson

2/16/2010 10:45:18 PM

my apologies

2/16/2010 10:46:00 PM

THESE ARE SIDS PLAYERS ARGUMENT DEBUNKED:

Here is how Sidney got "HIS PLAYERS"


Year One: He got the job about 3 days before recruiting ended. Unfortunately, everyone with two legs, arms, and testes had already chosen a school. Since we were losing an absurd amount of scholarship players (Simmons, Brackman, Bethel, Bennerman, Evtimov, Werner, and Chris Wright) we grabbed guys like Bartosz, Ferguson, Johnson, Harris, and Degand to pair with Horner just so we wouldn't have to pick practice players off the women's team. For the record, these recruits do not count. These guys are our WOULD BE SENIORS for this year and even that is false since many of these were transfers whose eligibility has since expired. Of these we are left with Horner and Degand. Already, we're in a big hole.

Year Two: These are our Jr's. Somehow out of nowhere Sidney landed a stud recruit Hickson. This was a total shock to everyone since he basically had a year to even get on the kid's radar and he had no ties to NC State. We also supplemented the class with Tracy Smith a top 100 recruit, Javi Gonzalez a guy we took because of our glaring need at PG, and Johnny Thomas a well regarded signing that hasn't worked out due to injuries. Unfortunately, we lost Hickson to the draft early which makes this a solid but not spectacular Jr Class this season because it lacks depth. This was a terrific class at the time given the fact our coaches really had to scramble to get caught up in the recruiting process for these guys.

Year Three: These are our So's. After landing so much frontcourt talent the prior year we can't be expected to land anything there. We did exactly what we should have done. Focused on getting a good wing player to replace Fells so we targeted CJ Williams, who was highly regarded at the time and showed flashes his Fr. season. We also needed to add a guard with ballhandling, but we didn't want to take someone that would take us out of the running for John Wall. Enter Julius Mays. If we could have gotten someone better we would have, but given our team results Mays was apparently the best we could do. This class is giving us absolutely no production this year. That's tough to get from your Sophomores when your Sr class is weak and Jr class thin and still win.

Year Four: These are our Fr. Really a breakthrough class. We struck out on Favors and Wall who would have made this an absolute monster haul and without those true impact freshmen we didn't get enough talent to make us instantly competitive in the ACC. However, we did get a lot of solid 4 year players in exchange. Wood and Howell have already proven to be ACC caliber starters. Painter was a top 100 recruit who has recently shown flashes of developing into a solid ACC contributor. When we struck out late on Wall and Favors Sidney did a nice job of finding unheralded recruits Davis and Vandenburg who will give us minutes when they develop. Throw in the fact that we technically landed a stud recruit in Lorenzo Brown in this class, and this was an amazing class given our horrible results on the floor the past three seasons.

Year Five: Lowe proves that when he has the time to cultivate a relationship with recruits over many seasons he can land elite talent like Harrow. We lose a commitment from CJ Leslie b/c of our poor results and CJ's development into an elite recruit. Perhaps, after we put a good product on the floor the next few years we won't run into this problem again. Cothron, a top 100 recruit commits as well despite our loaded frontcourt depth and the looming prospect of CJ re-signing with us. Lorenzo Brown maintains his commitment despite having to take an extra year to qualify. This is the star studded class we need.



Okay, so look at the overall picture. "LOWE'S PLAYERS" are really 2 marginal seniors who he had nothing to do with, 2 good juniors who he sniped, 2 bad sophomores who he may have misjudged a bit, and 5 solid freshmen who look like four year players that he can take full responsibility for.

On top of that we have an elite PG, great SG, and good PF recruit committed for next year with a looming elite SF possibility.

Why don't we judge "HIS PLAYERS" when he actually has "HIS PLAYERS"?

2/16/2010 11:16:21 PM

excellent spin

2/16/2010 11:19:05 PM

Quote :

"This was a total shock to everyone since he basically had a year to even get on the kid's radar and he had no ties to NC State."

and perhaps helped by the fact that we were an ACC school that promised him a starting spot from day 1 despite the fact that he had players at the position who had just taken him to what would turn out to be his best record to date and the acc tourney finals. guy but up big stats but ended up hurting the TEAM b/c his placement in the lineup ruined team chemistry (mccauley/costner's fault in the end, but lowe needed to know his players well enough to know how to motivate them to get wins, which is his job ahead of giving players a direct route to the nba) and b/c he couldnt handle a double team and didnt have the strength to handle established big men. i think i am the only one on earth who holds these opinions, but whatever. i'll just have to lean on the fact that he went from his best season directly to his worst season (well, depending on this year)

Quote :

"Unfortunately, we lost Hickson to the draft early"

early? he left midway through his frosh season? he would have had to, b/c anyone on this board will tell you that hickson and lowe both knew that hickson would never wear an ncsu uniform more than one year.

Quote :

"After landing so much frontcourt talent the prior year "

as was addressed above, he only landed tracy smith as far as year three was concerned (and didnt everyone bitch about how smith never got any pt, wonder why he made the opposite choice w/ vandy)

Quote :

"we didn't want to take someone that would take us out of the running for John Wall."

so yea, i'm all for going after elite players, but when you are rebuilding/building and you dont have unc or duke on the front of your jersey, you better be sure you have a backup plan. coaches get no extra wins for almost getting that melo or durant.

Quote :

"We struck out on Favors and Wall who would have made this an absolute monster haul "

again, especially with a relatively empty stable, close doesnt get you anything.

Quote :

"We lose a commitment from CJ Leslie b/c of our poor results"

which of course is not at all sid's fault

i also hate to bring it up time and again, but sendek came in w/ worse talent and the program in a far far far far far worse state and had far more success, taking us to the acc finals his first year w/ nothing but cc harrison and 4 nits (including 4 wins in the first round) in his first 4 years and no losing records. granted he slipped up his 5th year, but after 4 straight postseason appearance some fans were willing to cut him a break, of course some werent.

sid came in with far more talent including a mcd's aa and bunch of 3 and 4 star players. granted, each had their issues, but it was far more talent than cc and the poopoo platter.

of course most of this is beside the pt of sid's in-game coaching, which i have prob's with at times as well, but that is another discussion.

2/17/2010 12:07:45 AM

^Finally someone I can fully agree with....

Lol they won't like the Herb argument....even though its obviously true.

Seriously though I cannot wait for this date next year so we finally can truly judge Lowe according to everyone and he will be fired or not.

[Edited on February 17, 2010 at 2:40 AM. Reason : most likely gone]

2/17/2010 2:36:26 AM

i stopped reading when you talked about the nit like anyone gives a damn

2/17/2010 2:48:05 AM

NIT is better than nothing...could go a long way towards building younger guys up.

Plus good teams make the NIT still now with all the parity in college ball.

2/17/2010 3:05:59 AM

i stopped reading when you acted like it was lowe's fault that sendek's recruits were pussies

2/17/2010 6:07:48 AM

I just want to have on record that I am firmly on the Lowe bandwagon.

I like his in-game coaching, I like his recruiting and I can see progress in the team. Good enough for me right now.

2/17/2010 8:59:29 AM

rwoody Sendek also played a style that was unacceptable to our idiot fanbase... Tony Bennet is getting good results with relatively poor talent but do you realistically think our fanbase would be happy with him as our coach? You can get surprising results when you run a non-traditional system but when you are trying to run a more traditional style of play you NEED high caliber talent to compete.

2/17/2010 9:04:44 AM

Sendek recruits players who transfer across the country when the fans boo and they get blown out by UNC and Duke every single year

Oh wait, thats what Sendek himself did

2/17/2010 9:26:29 AM

Quote :

"rwoody Sendek also played a style that was unacceptable to our idiot fanbase... Tony Bennet is getting good results with relatively poor talent but do you realistically think our fanbase would be happy with him as our coach? You can get surprising results when you run a non-traditional system but when you are trying to run a more traditional style of play you NEED high caliber talent to compete."

Who gives a fuck about the style of play? If you win, you win. UCLA made three straight Final 4's based nearly solely on defense. They would put up 50-60 points a game most nights. Would Ben Howland not fly in the mecca of college basketball called Raleigh?

I liken that kind of statement to a Knicks fan saying they are so glad they are losing 60 games a year now because that boring mid-90's style wasn't appealing.

** adder: that wasn't addressed to you specifically. Just in general at the fanbase that you mentioned.

[Edited on February 17, 2010 at 9:27 AM. Reason : x]

2/17/2010 9:26:38 AM

The problem is, with Herb's style of play, you usually would win one NCAA tourney game. He probably wouldn't even have his biggest career achievement one Sweet 16 appearance if Hodge had actually called a timeout in the UConn game like Herb wanted, but thank god Hodge decided to actually play some basketball.

Herb with Hodge is very similar to Amato with Rivers.

2/17/2010 9:32:00 AM

I don't really buy that. It's pretty much a cliche at this point.

Georgetown has had plenty of success with a nearly identical offense and mindset. As did West Virginia.

^ as to your last point, we really have no idea if that is the case. In his one year without Hodge we were 10-6 in the ACC and made the second round of the NCAA Tourney.

[Edited on February 17, 2010 at 9:34 AM. Reason : x]

2/17/2010 9:33:15 AM

Good for Georgetown and WVU. How come Herb couldn't do what they did?

Thank God Cam Bennerman hit a late 3-pointer over Cal so we could win that game

2/17/2010 9:34:26 AM

I don't know. I was just addressing your faulty logic.

^ yes they were. But we were also a good team the year after Hodge left. You could argue that Hodge could have set the whole thing in motion. We'll really never know though, so this is pointless.

[Edited on February 17, 2010 at 9:35 AM. Reason : x]

2/17/2010 9:35:16 AM

You say Georgetown, UCLA, WVU, etc have had good success running similar offenses to Herb's.

But Herb hasn't had as much success.

What does that say about Herb?

That his ceiling is a Sweet 16 appearance.

2/17/2010 9:37:24 AM

Hated Herb's offense -- it was mind-numbing, negated athleticism, and was dead in the water if we weren't hitting threes.

But I will say that his defense was praiseworthy. Admittedly, I didn't really appreciate it til he left, but it was solid despite having less-than-stellar athleticism on the team. I wish Sid would bring an assistant coach on staff that could implement a solid matchup zone. It can absolutely paralyze some teams.

2/17/2010 9:37:32 AM

^^ Possibly, yes.

But the whole thing I responded to was about "style of play." You are the one that turned in to a Herb thing. I didn't even mention him, nor did I plan to.

^ interestingly enough, Pomeroy's offensive efficiency ratings nearly always had us in the Top 20 (and sometimes as high as third) while our defensive ratings were much lower. -- those ratings are essentialy points scored for/against per 100 possessions.

[Edited on February 17, 2010 at 9:40 AM. Reason : x]

2/17/2010 9:39:06 AM

Well he was our last coach. Despite what packboozie would want you to do, its not taboo to compare our current coach to our last coach, or to say why we have more hope in our current coach than our last coach.

2/17/2010 9:39:42 AM

When it comes down to it, basketball is entertainment. And Herb Sendek's teams were very unentertaining at NC State. Well, with the exception of Hodge's press conferences. This might be forgivable if he won like UCLA or Georgetown, but he didn't. We were stuck in a mire of mediocrity with little excitement. If you think that's completely unreasonable, fine. But if you think that makes us a uniquely terrible fanbase, I've got some links to forums of a football team located in Charlotte that wants a coach who's had actual success before gone

2/17/2010 9:51:36 AM

Quote :

"Thank God Cam Bennerman hit a late 3-pointer over Cal so we could win that game "

thank God Lorenzo Charles made that dunk so we could feel that we are entitled to win the NCAAs every year and so we can have "one of us" at the helm whom we aren't allowed to fire simply because of his ring



...without that dunk, we are historically no more relevant than a Marquette or an Arkansas

2/17/2010 11:53:17 AM

I made that point a while back. Its ironic that the reason people want Lowe fired, is because of high expectations that Lowe's 83 team gave us.

2/17/2010 11:56:16 AM

don't ya think

2/17/2010 11:58:17 AM

Quote :

"Pomeroy's offensive efficiency ratings nearly always had us in the Top 20 (and sometimes as high as third) while our defensive ratings were much lower "

Well, it was good defense compared to what we're seeing this year. I say that as a Lowe supporter too.

2/17/2010 12:00:01 PM

I don't think people feel entitled because of the '83 championship. Hell, I don't know of a single person who feels entitled to an NCAA championship. However, I do know of people who think we should be able to win a damn ACC Championship.

2/17/2010 12:00:51 PM

http://www.packpride.com if you want to see some people who feel like it is our destiny to make a cardiac run for an NCAA crown each and every year

2/17/2010 12:14:34 PM

Quote :

"so we can have "one of us" at the helm whom we aren't allowed to fire simply because of his ring"

i don't think he should be fired this year, and it has absolutely nothing to do with his ring.

2/17/2010 12:36:49 PM

Well that was embarrassing, we just looked disheveled tonight. I know Maryland is a top notch team, but that 2nd half was just plain ugly. We should have utilized timeouts and basketball strategy in the 2nd half tonight, no denying that.

2/17/2010 10:52:20 PM

That was pretty fucking pathetic. He did abso-fucking-lutely nothing in the 2nd half to combat what Maryland was doing out there....NOTHING.

2/17/2010 10:54:42 PM