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Skack
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Ha ha. That car is plain as hell.

I don't think anyone would be complaining if they had just drawn something that looked similar to the final product in some way, shape, or form. Like if they said "Hey guys...Here is a picture of the bland looking electric car we're coming out with in a few years!" people would be ok with it.

9/9/2008 10:25:13 AM

Mindstorm
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Quote :
"oh if you're comparing it to the Prius it looks awesome! The Prius is trash"


The prius is the benchmark product for the market they're trying to get into. Making it look simple and practical with a couple of "different" styling cues that look reminiscent of GM's japanese competition is a way to try to get people to go "hey look, american automakers can build practical super-economy cars too". Indeed, the prius is quite ugly. The honda civic comparison is also not bad either as it points out how plain the design is. That's what they're going for though. They're trying to sell this as a plain looking, practical vehicle that's cheap as hell to fuel.

I mean, the prius's sales are the sort of thing GM wants to accomplish with this car, so it's no small wonder they tried to make it look a little bit like it. It doesn't look like the concept, yeah, but hardly anything ever does.

9/9/2008 11:03:12 AM

Igor
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gheyness is what it is.
they went from sport sedan to econobox look
price tag better reflect that as well
it's their only hope

9/9/2008 5:12:45 PM

ScHpEnXeL
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yeah. the audience it was originally after simply isn't there with how it turned out.. they need to quit putting out these super good looking concepts then fucking them up--either don't put them out or let something else suffer so that ppl get what they thought they were going to get

i seriously would have considered buying one if it looked like the concept on the first page.. not a chance in hell now

9/9/2008 5:25:44 PM

Igor
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Quote :
"The prius is the benchmark product for the market they're trying to get into"


if they keep it looking like the original, the's be in a completely different market and they ouldnt even have to compete with the prius/


they'd be selling more along with rediculously-priced niche markets such as


if anything, they should have added some balls to the drivtrain and kept the looks and upped the price tag. they'd still be 1/2 as cheap as anything else worth pimpin in the EV market

9/9/2008 8:38:46 PM

Quinn
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Chevy cant up sell their product.

they sell corvettes for 8 grand below sticker.


You sound like a good candidate for management over there.

9/9/2008 8:57:51 PM

Str8BacardiL
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Quote :
"It'll probably be a hit with their loyal customers."


who? I have met chevy truck enthusiasts before, but I did not think they had "loyal" car customers.

Quote :
"At its price point though, people could just go buy a prius."


Seriously. EPIC FAIL. This is a unique time in history for our car companies to redefine themselves and hopefully become profitable. The result, copy Honda and Toyota.

9/9/2008 10:00:24 PM

0EPII1
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^^^

You seriously expect Chevy (or any car company for that matter) to take a gmable like that? Did you really say they should have made a luxury niche-market all-electric car to compete with the Fisker Karma (and Tesla and Lightning GT)?

Are you high?

9/10/2008 12:59:44 AM

Noen
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"I mean, the prius's sales are the sort of thing GM wants to accomplish with this car, so it's no small wonder they tried to make it look a little bit like it. It doesn't look like the concept, yeah, but hardly anything ever does."


No. Chevy hopes this will be the next fleet winner, the next gen Impala. They want this to compete with the Civic, the Focus et al. Toyota sells ~300,000 Prius's a year worldwide. They sell more than double that (~600k) in the Camry just in the US alone.

The breakthrough will come when one automaker can get these cars into government and corporate fleets. I honestly think that's why they toned the car down. A fleet vehicle is absolute gold for a car company. The Taurus and the Impala have kept Ford and GM alive for decades.

9/10/2008 2:51:17 AM

Prawn Star
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Fleet vehicles are "absolute gold for a car company"? Ummm, no. On the contrary, they are frequently low margin vehicles that harm the brand image.

This car was styled aggressively to build hype, then toned down to reflect market realities. The market is not there for a sport-sedan styled hyper-economy car.

The EPA will decide the fate of the Volt, and correspondingly, GM. If they rate this thing at 100 mpg, it'll sell like hotcakes. If they redefine the mpg test to reflect the unique drivetrain of the Volt and rate it at 48 mpg, nobody will be able to justify the price difference between it and competitors.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10037173-48.html

9/10/2008 3:14:44 AM

Wyloch
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"i seriously would have considered buying one if it looked like the concept on the first page.. not a chance in hell now"

9/10/2008 9:20:41 AM

TKE-Teg
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Quote :
"If you're going to complain an aerodynamic vehicle designed around efficient fuel consumption is ugly you may as well complain about how slow it is.

Have you guys ever engineered anything in your lives?"


There's no law about aerodynamic efficiency = ugly.

Regarding Toyota selling 300,000 Prius's worldwide...do they still sell those at a loss? I know they took a hefty loss on every first Gen Prius, don't recall on this one.

9/10/2008 12:18:49 PM

quagmire02
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Quote :
"There's no law about aerodynamic efficiency = ugly."


no, but there's hella more R&D that would go into making something pretty AND especially aerodynamic, since the nuances of style are arbitrary while the nuances of aerodynamics are not

you'd be willing to pay $15k more for the same car (engine/performance) just because of how it looks? i think that most people who buy hybrids/electric cars don't care that much

as noted above, toyota took a hit to sell the prius...chevy can't afford to do that, and you're saying they should have put even MORE money into aesthetics

[Edited on September 10, 2008 at 12:27 PM. Reason : .]

9/10/2008 12:26:07 PM

Shaggy
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ugly as sin. way to fuck up gm.

9/10/2008 1:58:27 PM

Quinn
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^^

No of course he wouldn't pay extra. He wants a Ferrari looking hybrid that costs as much as a cobalt to produce.

9/10/2008 6:40:53 PM

smc
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Development costs are roughly equivalent for any new model. Their CAD monkeys couldn't care less how aggressively it's styled. They just plain fucked up and are hoping for government contracts to save their ass, as mentioned above.

9/10/2008 6:58:10 PM

Str8BacardiL
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I want something as large and shaped like my land rover with 80mpg! Too bad that is not possible.

9/10/2008 7:01:10 PM

TKE-Teg
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^^^quit being a douche. You know damn well I'm aware of R&D costs. Its a major cop out to say they didn't make it look good b/c of cost.

9/10/2008 7:08:32 PM

ScHpEnXeL
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^^^yup. i was about to state that it really doesn't make a fuck how a few fenders/hoods looked. Material costs aren't that huge of a deal compared to all the design work that goes into presses to make all of the body panels, etc. ...CAD data is CAD data and isn't going to be the ultimate deciding factor in how much the car costs since all of the same shit has to be designed anyways.

I agree GM can't afford to put out a car that they're losing money on--but I really think they could have made it look CLOSE to how they originally lead everyone to believe it would have and charged what it cost to make a little on it and had ended up with a solid foot in the hybrid market and have something to offer that no one else really does--a hybrid that looks good. But no, GM makes it butt fucking ugly, essentially lies to its customers..saves $100 a car and ultimately fucks itself once again.

Why am I not surprised

[Edited on September 10, 2008 at 7:10 PM. Reason : ^^^]

9/10/2008 7:09:43 PM

Mindstorm
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"who? I have met chevy truck enthusiasts before, but I did not think they had "loyal" car customers."


Uh, good ol boy DOT employees with brand loyalty. With all the folks I worked with it was brand loyalty for their trucks that extended to brand loyalty for the whole family (their wives drove sedans from the same company).

Quote :
"The result, copy Honda and Toyota."


Yeah, they've been playing catchup for a long time. If US car companies would detonate their management and leadership from the top down and start over they'd probably have this problem less often.

Quote :
"No. Chevy hopes this will be the next fleet winner, the next gen Impala. They want this to compete with the Civic, the Focus et al. Toyota sells ~300,000 Prius's a year worldwide. They sell more than double that (~600k) in the Camry just in the US alone."


My point is that Chevy sees that hybrid sedans are popular and wants to get a head start in a mostly unserved market. Hybrid sedans with decent mileage sold out all over the place when gas spiked. I think the prius just looks like a malibu that got kicked in the nose a few times and that got an ugly touch-up job on its ass. I'm sure it'll be a successful fleet vehicle, but I don't see how that'll be gold for chevy. They were already selling fleet vehicles, and shifting sales from one car line to another probably won't do that much for them.

9/10/2008 8:34:32 PM

Quinn
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"quit being a douche. You know damn well I'm aware of R&D costs. Its a major cop out to say they didn't make it look good b/c of cost."


How SHOULD it look then.

Post a few cars that get >45mpg .

It's a four door hybrid. Its SUPPOSED to be boring.

9/10/2008 9:05:33 PM

TKE-Teg
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The Civic hybrid looks way better. This looks like a swollen Acura TL. It doesn't have to be ugly, whats so hard to understand about that?!

9/10/2008 9:36:06 PM

Quinn
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It doesn't look significantly different then the civic hybrid. Try again?

9/10/2008 9:40:56 PM

TKE-Teg
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whats your point? Its a hybrid and it looks good for its class. Specifically, its a CHEAP car. You said cheap cars don't look good. I'm also found of the Mazda3 5dr.

9/10/2008 10:05:03 PM

Smath74
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damn they made that car look as generic as possible

9/10/2008 10:16:53 PM

Mindstorm
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"It doesn't have to be ugly, whats so hard to understand about that?!"


I dunno. American designers have had this issue for a good long while now on these mid-level cars.

9/11/2008 12:10:50 AM

0EPII1
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Chevrolet Volt Unveiled at GM Centennial Event

Interesting info:

Quote :
"GM commemorated its next 100 years today by unveiling the production version of the Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid and has released partial details.

Compared to the original Volt concept, the design of this production version was completely revamped in an effort to achieve GM's target driving range of up to 40 miles (based on EPA city cycle) without using gasoline or producing emissions. As a result, engineers developed one of the most aerodynamic vehicles in GM's history.

The Chevrolet Volt is powered by an electric drive unit that delivers the equivalent of 150 hp and 273 lb-ft. (370 Nm) of instant torque. Providing power to the electric drive unit is a 16-kWh lithium-ion battery. When the battery's energy is depleted, a gasoline/E85-powered engine generator supplies electricity to power the Volt's electric drive unit while simultaneously charging the lithium-ion battery. This cycle of operation extends the range of the Volt for several hundred additional miles, until the vehicle's battery can be charged. The Volt has a top speed of 100 miles per hour.

Judging by the photos, the Volt's interior seems to be a groundbreaking leap forward with features never seen before in a Chevrolet no less any other competitors in the segment. Such features include driver-configurable liquid crystal instrument display and a touch-sensitive infotainment center with integrated shifter. Other segment busting features include standard seven-inch touch screen vehicle information display, touch screen-style climate and infotainment controls, standard Bluetooth for cellular phone and USB/Bluetooth for music streaming and optional navigation system with onboard hard drive for maps and music storage.

The Chevrolet Volt is expected to be built at GM's Detroit-Hamtramck plant with production scheduled to begin late 2010 for models in the United States. No pricing has been announced."


Here is some info about the interesting and cutting-edge interior, as well as a youtube video of the interior:

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/16/video-walkthrough-of-2011-chevy-volt-interior/









9/16/2008 11:00:01 PM

quagmire02
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okay, now i'm confused...i had originally said i thought the volt would use a Li-ION battery due to the efficiency (even though they're more expensive) and then Seotaji told me that was wrong because using Li-ION would be completely cost-prohibitive

now here we are, a domestic hybrid trying to compete with japanese hybrids...the biggest advantage that most domestics have is that they're cheaper than their japanese counterparts (though usually sacrificing quality to do so)...and they're using the superior (albeit more expensive) battery technology...Seotaji implied a $6k difference between NiMH and Li-ION...so should we expect the volt to cost more than a prius due to the supposedly more expensive hardware?

9/16/2008 11:09:43 PM

Mindstorm
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GM keeps saying the Volt is going to cost $40k (in those news blurbs I keep seeing on news.google.com). The prius can be had around $22k.

Could be a pretty big dealbreaker, though I think it looks a little cooler than a prius.

9/16/2008 11:15:38 PM

TKE-Teg
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^If it competes directly with the Prius it will be competitively priced. Keep in mind that Toyota loses money on every Prius it sells too.

I think what I really hate about the Volt's styling, other than how chunky it is ( ) is how rounded the front of the car is. Absolutely hate that.

9/16/2008 11:27:27 PM

HaLo
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^^^well seeing how comparing a Volt to a Prius isn't really a valid comparaison, I can see why you would be confused.


lets say we do compare the two.

the Volt and Prius should get comparable gas mileage after you reach the 40 mile threshold so the real differentiator is the 40 mile "cheap" range (i think I saw somewhere it'd cost about 10 cents to recharge is based on average kwh costs). So, for the first 40 miles, the Prius is going to consume about 3/4gallon, assuming $4/gallon gas, that works out to $3 for the first 40 miles in the Prius compared to the $.10 for the Volt. A difference of $2.90

GM is expected to announce pricing at $40000 for the Volt, the Prius is around $22000, a premium of $18000. At this difference you would need to make 6206 40 mile trips for the Volt to break even with the Prius. Assuming you make 1 40 mile trip a day (especially considering the expected 8 hour charge time) thats a payback period of 17 years. Even at 8 dollar/gallon gas, the payback is still over 8 years. Hardly worth it from the "cost savings" aspect.

I love the idea and am glad that some companies are advancing technology, obviously the tech isn't there from an efficency standpoint to make sense financially but the only way to get there is for consumers and companies to take a risk on the tech.

edit: now if the price new was $25000, the payback is under 3 years, the things would be flying off shelves.

[Edited on September 16, 2008 at 11:31 PM. Reason : post 6666]

9/16/2008 11:28:46 PM

quagmire02
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^^^ & ^^ & ^

okay...so the volt isn't actually going to compete with either of the japanese-brand hybrids...then why would anyone buy this? it doesn't make sense cost-wise, and i daresay you're getting better quality out of any jap car compared to any domestic car...why would anyone pay $18k for a comparable vehicle with a greater chance of breaking?

the styling difference alone isn't worth $18k

Quote :
"I love the idea and am glad that some companies are advancing technology, obviously the tech isn't there from an efficency standpoint to make sense financially but the only way to get there is for consumers and companies to take a risk on the tech."


this may be something i'm missing, as well...what technology is the volt applying that's so radically different? is it just the ability to plug in? because, IIRC, there's a company in raleigh that'll add the functionality on to your prius for ~$5k (i think it was an N&O article, but i'd have to find it)

[Edited on September 16, 2008 at 11:39 PM. Reason : .]

9/16/2008 11:38:05 PM

TKE-Teg
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^its not the same man. The tech's different. Its late so I'm not gonna dig around for it though, maybe later (sorry).

Now about buying this over a Prius b/c of cost. First off, a lot of people don't buy the Prius b/c it saves them money. They're trying to make a statement, or be green. 2nd, when the Prius came out a few years ago it made no sense from a financial point of view to buy it over a comparatively sized compact. And finally, I'm sure a lot of people are sick of the long wait lists for the Prius.

[Edited on September 16, 2008 at 11:58 PM. Reason : k]

[Edited on September 16, 2008 at 11:59 PM. Reason : d]

9/16/2008 11:58:22 PM

0EPII1
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Quote :
"And finally, I'm sure a lot of people are sick of the long wait lists for the Prius."


But now, there is this!!!

New Honda Insight!!!

(still a concept, but obviously, the production model will basically look the same, and Honda said so as well)

9/17/2008 8:08:34 AM

quagmire02
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Quote :
"its not the same man. The tech's different. Its late so I'm not gonna dig around for it though, maybe later (sorry)."


if you get around to it, please post...i fully admit my ignorance, and while i'm sure the marketing folks over at GM aren't stupid, i can't quite rationalize a $18k premium for a domestic (read: lower quality) car that offers no significant (that i've been been able to see) advantages to a more reliable and cheaper jap car

Quote :
"And finally, I'm sure a lot of people are sick of the long wait lists for the Prius."


i assume you're only referring to a line of those people who are customizing a prius? because when the old gf was looking at buying a new car, we visited two toyota dealerships and BOTH had 3-4 priuses available for purchase on the lot

9/17/2008 8:47:51 AM

0EPII1
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Bob Lutz on the Volt's Design

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2008/09/power_on.html

[actual blog entry by the man himself]

9/17/2008 6:19:25 PM

Quinn
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Quote :
"i can't quite rationalize a $18k premium for a domestic "


You can't do it because their isn't one. 40k is absurd.

How did every single decision maker sleep on R&D'ing a hybrid drive train? It's been about 10 years now. Are you kidding me? Dont blame the camaro. You just dropped the same engine you've been limping a long with for the past 8 years into it.

Maybe you can call up daewoo and have another aveo produced.

9/17/2008 7:58:32 PM

CarZin
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"okay, now i'm confused...i had originally said i thought the volt would use a Li-ION battery due to the efficiency (even though they're more expensive) and then Seotaji told me that was wrong because using Li-ION would be completely cost-prohibitive"

The Volt IS using a lithium ion battery

9/17/2008 8:03:31 PM

quagmire02
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^ yeah...i said that before i heard of the $40k price tag...Seotaji was right...it IS cost-prohibitive

at the time, i thought this was direct competition to jap hybrids, and that the price tag would be similar

9/17/2008 8:53:04 PM

Noen
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If this think costs 10 cents more than the Prius or Civic Hybrid, it's going to be a bust. The whole point of this was to make a fleet class hybrid.

You guys are so wrong on the CAD work, R&D and material costs it's insane. And there's no way in hell that it was going to look ANYTHING like the concept. You can look at the concept picture and point out 10-15 major design elements that would never make it past regulations.

I went to school with a kid who worked on the surfacing for the Corvette Z06 hood. He headed a team of 90, yes 90 engineers who spent 6 months getting the surfacing to a manufacturable point. There's an insane amount of work that goes into creating body surfaces that can actually be produced, and for a car where the majority of it's production cost goes into the engine, you have to be much more conservative on the panel production.

Is it mundane? Not entirely. It's not a bad looking car at all, it's just not the hybrid 2+2 sport vehicle the concept was. Stop crying over the concept and look at the vehicle for what it actually is. It's got a pretty sleek look to it, it looks very distinct (which regardless of your personal taste, is something GM desperately needs in a new line), and well proportioned for a 4 door sedan.

But yeah, this thing SHOULD sell for 20k. If it really is 40k, it's going to be a disaster. Fleet vehicles have kept GM and Ford in business. If you don't understand the economics behind it, you need to go read up. It's BIG money.

9/17/2008 10:16:25 PM

TKE-Teg
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I'm waiting for the Honda CRX hybrid that I keep seeing photos of. That actually looks good, and will be cheap.

9/18/2008 12:12:48 AM

Quinn
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Quote :
"You guys are so wrong on the CAD work, R&D and material costs it's insane."


But Tyler, its just metal, they can stamp whatever they want!!!!!!11


-Choir

9/18/2008 8:03:08 AM

MattJM321
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Quote :
"I went to school with a kid who worked on the surfacing for the Corvette Z06 hood. He headed a team of 90, yes 90 engineers who spent 6 months getting the surfacing to a manufacturable point. There's an insane amount of work that goes into creating body surfaces that can actually be produced, and for a car where the majority of it's production cost goes into the engine, you have to be much more conservative on the panel production."


That's retarded and a waste of money.

9/18/2008 8:27:54 AM

Noen
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no, that's the reality of making cars with crazy fucking surfaces. They are insanely hard to engineer for manufacturing. Which is why most low end cars look "boring". It's not that designers dont make them look better, it's the cost for getting it to manufacturing and tooling.

9/18/2008 12:26:31 PM

MattJM321
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imagine the pics above without window tint, what a turd.

9/18/2008 7:14:27 PM

Quinn
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http://www.leftlanenews.com/honda-insight.html

Some more photos of the Honda. If its really 18.5k Chevy may as well just put an LS in the Volt and call it a Volt SS.

10/6/2008 7:18:41 AM

Johnny Swank
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Quote :
"I'm waiting for the Honda CRX hybrid that I keep seeing photos of. That actually looks good, and will be cheap."


Hell, I wish they'd just re-release the 1988 CRX I used to have. I got 40-45 MPG on the road with that thing. I loved that damn car.

If they come out with a <20K CRX hybrid, I'd buy it tomorrow.

10/6/2008 8:46:34 AM

quagmire02
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^^ agreed...$18.5k would put it in my price range, even

^ IIRC, cars like that and the geo metro got such good gas mileage then because they didn't have to adhere to certain EPA standards (or something along those lines)...i'm pretty sure that we could STILL get mileage like that, for dirt cheap, but only if we tossed out a number of environmental guidelines

*shrug*

10/6/2008 9:46:15 AM

quagmire02
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there was a 13-minute bit on 60 minutes last night, including interviews with lutz (GM) and musk (tesla)

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4502691n

10/6/2008 11:24:19 AM

Quinn
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I think the early 90's compact cars got good mileage because they weighed 2000lbs and were 70-110hp. You may be correct on the emissions aspect of it though. I never thought of that.

10/6/2008 12:23:45 PM

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