User not logged in - login - register
Home Calendar Books School Tool Photo Gallery Message Boards Users Statistics Advertise Site Info
go to bottom | |
 Message Boards » » Israel/Palestine Page [1] 2 3 4 5 ... 29, Next  
bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

There's a lot of discussion and arguments across multiple threads that can just be focused into one.

I'm getting sick of people who continue to claim Israel has no right to exist without presenting any argument.

The creation of Israel as a political state was no surprise to anyone. Mass immigration of Jews back to the area began in 1881, plans for the Jewish State first got rolling in 1897, and there wasn't any conflict about it until the British started screwing around with things, pitted one side against the other, then left altogether after declaring a partitioned area as the new state.



It was fairly divided between the Arabs and Jews (though there was lots of illegal immigration post Holocaust, the overwhelming majority of Jews in the area had come in legally prior to WWII and bought their land).

The Palestinians didn't like their end of the bargain, they attacked the day after Israel declared itself an independent nation, Israel and its day-old military defended, Israel won. 4 wars later the borders have changed, because that's what happens in war.

2 independent states could have been created in 1948, and so much could have been avoided, but the British fucked things up by not making sure things were good to go on both sides before skipping town.

Now, it looks like 3 states will be needed, because Palestine is tearing itself apart. Let Gaza and West Bank be independent from each other, make Jerusalem an international city mandated by the UN, move the Israeli capital to Tel-Aviv, and boom, problem solved.

Politicians make such messes of things

9/18/2009 11:24:08 PM

pooljobs
All American
3481 Posts
user info
edit post

9/18/2009 11:28:20 PM

aaronburro
Sup, B
51496 Posts
user info
edit post

if you think the israelis will give up Jerusalem as their capitol, then you are an idiot

9/18/2009 11:29:04 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

i didn't say it would happen, i just said it should. and the younger generation is more willing than you think. the peace movement is growing larger everyday...on both sides. also, the younger generation is less religious and doesn't have as strong of ties to Jerusalem as a "holy" city.
if iran doesn't blow everyone up from both sides (because they don't give a shit about what happens to palestine) then i think there will be peace within the next 30 years.

^^those maps have no indication of population. plenty of Jews were living peacefully in villages that weren't considered official settlements.

[Edited on September 18, 2009 at 11:45 PM. Reason : -]

9/18/2009 11:42:59 PM

0EPII1
All American
40011 Posts
user info
edit post

This is what will destroy the world one day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0 (that's the tip of the iceberg... imagine how many civilians have been intentionally shot in cold blood and the murders covered up by the "most moral army in the world")

And this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8234359.stm


Quote :
"The Palestinians didn't like their end of the bargain"


You mean being subject to Jewish terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and land confiscations in those few years before the creation of Israel?


*************************************************************************

Israel has a right to exist.
Israel is the victim.
Israel is not the aggressor.
Israel is a very moral and courageous country.
Isreal didn't steal any land.
Israelis didn't kick out Arabs from their homes and lands.
Israeli Army is the "most moral" army in the world (either Sharon or Olmert said it a few years back after the carnage of Gaza)

Are these statements true?

Let's see what Israel's own founders and leaders say and believe, shall we? I was going to bold the best bits... but then I would be bolding almost 75%. Unbelievable stuff.


David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 - 1963


Quote :
""We must expel Arabs and take their places.""
Quote :
""There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?""
Quote :
""Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.""
Quote :
""Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.""
Quote :
""If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.""




Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974


Quote :
""There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist.""
Quote :
""How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.""
Quote :
""This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.""




Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995


Quote :
""We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!""
Quote :
""[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.""





Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992


Quote :
""The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple.""
Quote :
""(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988"





Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999


Quote :
""Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989."





Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001


Quote :
""I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian."





Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - 2006


Quote :
""It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998."
Quote :
""Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998."
Quote :
""Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.""


[Edited on September 19, 2009 at 12:01 AM. Reason : ]

9/18/2009 11:50:11 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

I never said Israel or its leaders were innocent in every matter. They have done some horrible things, but its not the first time in history (see Andrew Jackson). But its not like the Palestinian leadership has been pumping out saints. The founder of Palestinian Nationalism, Haj Amin al-Husseini, tried to talk Hitler into marching troops down to wipe out the Jews. Yasser Arafat was shown on film on countless occasions handing checks to families of suicide bombers. Palestinian children's programming teaches them how great being a martyr can be.

Leadership on both sides has been terrible, there's no argument about it.

The problem is everyone keeps looking at what this person did and what that person did and not what the people NOW can do. If we stay hung up on the past, we have no future, and that is the voice of the new generation. I've been there, I've heard and seen it.

But back to the point, yeah there have been some racist scumbags running things for far too long and lots of bad things have been said and done, but it doesn't mean Israel never had a right to be there.

9/19/2009 12:13:41 AM

mambagrl
Suspended
4724 Posts
user info
edit post

Israel having no right to exist has nothing to do with the Jews living there. The government is what has no right to exist. The people can stay but the Israli Government should have never existed. The country should have been created as a fair democracy or republic. One government for Israel and Palestine. Instead we have an extrimist zionist facist state that disenfranchised the palestinians.

9/19/2009 2:29:13 AM

pooljobs
All American
3481 Posts
user info
edit post

i don't think that israel doesn't have a right to exist, but they need to stop colonizing palestinian land.

i think president carter summed up things well in an op-ed he wrote after his book came out.
Quote :
"# Multiple deaths of innocent civilians have occurred on both sides, and this violence and all terrorism must cease.
# For 39 years, Israel has occupied Palestinian land, and has confiscated and colonized hundreds of choice sites.
# Often excluded from their former homes, land, and places of worship, protesting Palestinians have been severely dominated and oppressed. There is forced segregation between Israeli settlers and Palestine's citizens, with a complex pass system required for Arabs to traverse Israel's multiple checkpoints.
# An enormous wall snakes through populated areas of what is left of the West Bank, constructed on wide swaths of bulldozed trees and property of Arab families, obviously designed to acquire more territory and to protect the Israeli colonies already built. (Hamas declared a unilateral cease-fire in August 2004 as its candidates sought local and then national offices, which they claim is the reason for reductions in casualties to Israeli citizens.)
# Combined with this wall, Israeli control of the Jordan River Valley will completely enclose Palestinians in their shrunken and divided territory. Gaza is surrounded by a similar barrier with only two openings, still controlled by Israel. The crowded citizens have no free access to the outside world by air, sea, or land.
# The Palestinian people are now being deprived of the necessities of life by economic restrictions imposed on them by Israel and the United States because 42 percent voted for Hamas candidates in this year's election. Teachers, nurses, policemen, firemen, and other employees cannot be paid, and the UN has reported food supplies in Gaza equivalent to those among the poorest families in sub-Sahara Africa, with half the families surviving on one meal a day.
# Mahmoud Abbas, first as prime minister and now as president of the Palestinian National Authority and leader of the PLO, has sought to negotiate with Israel for almost six years, without success. Hamas leaders support such negotiations, promising to accept the results if approved by a Palestinian referendum.
# UN Resolutions, the Camp David Accords of 1978, the Oslo Agreement of 1993, official US Policy, and the International Roadmap for Peace are all based on the premise that Israel withdraw from occupied territories. Also, Palestinians must accept the same commitment made by the 23 Arab nations in 2002: to recognize Israel's right to live in peace within its legal borders. These are the two keys to peace"

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/12/20/reiterating_the_keys_to_peace/

9/19/2009 9:09:59 AM

Gzusfrk
All American
2988 Posts
user info
edit post

For those of you who are still students, take Dr. Khater's History of the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict. It's a ton of work, but it's quite incredible really the amount you will learn. He's got a unique perspective, he's Lebanese, but not Muslim, and he's really good at being objective in what he covers.

9/19/2009 9:17:54 AM

mambagrl
Suspended
4724 Posts
user info
edit post

Khater gives pretty much the same ole story. Talk to La Vopa.

9/19/2009 1:12:10 PM

TheDarkSaint
Starting Lineup
53 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"Israel having no right to exist has nothing to do with the Jews living there. The government is what has no right to exist. The people can stay but the Israli Government should have never existed. The country should have been created as a fair democracy or republic. One government for Israel and Palestine. Instead we have an extrimist zionist facist state that disenfranchised the palestinians."


A governments (and therefore the country it represents) right to exist depends upon being able to project sufficient forces (economic, military, and political) to sustain its existence. Based on these criteria, I'd say Israel has a right to exist.

9/19/2009 1:42:36 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

^^ what is the "same ol story?"

9/19/2009 2:02:05 PM

mambagrl
Suspended
4724 Posts
user info
edit post

Based on those criteria, Hitlers Nazi regime had a right to exist.

9/19/2009 2:36:05 PM

moron
All American
30215 Posts
user info
edit post

^ Technically they did, but they abrogated that right by losing the war and all respect from their peers.

9/19/2009 2:40:44 PM

rwoody
All American
24809 Posts
user info
edit post

the single biggest weapon that israel has is the ability to call those that disparage them anti-semetic


that and their fighter jets, that is.

9/19/2009 2:59:14 PM

Flying Tiger
All American
2341 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"But its not like the Palestinian leadership has been pumping out saints. The founder of Palestinian Nationalism, Haj Amin al-Husseini, tried to talk Hitler into marching troops down to wipe out the Jews. Yasser Arafat was shown on film on countless occasions handing checks to families of suicide bombers. Palestinian children's programming teaches them how great being a martyr can be."

All this stuff happened in reaction to the Jews' increased presence and pressure on the Brits, and after Israel stole the land. If you want to actually trace the timeline, the wrongs start with the Israelis.
Quote :
"If we stay hung up on the past, we have no future, and that is the voice of the new generation."

If you don't admit that you are wrong, what chance do you have of fixing a problem? Not only is Israel refusing to admit they are in the wrong, they also continue to repeat the same actions that got the Palestinians/Arabs upset with them in the first place (colonization, demonizing the original population, denying people living essentials, murdering civilians, etc.).

[Edited on September 19, 2009 at 3:25 PM. Reason : ]]

9/19/2009 3:24:43 PM

Pupils DiL8t
All American
3735 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"Now, it looks like 3 states will be needed, because Palestine is tearing itself apart."



I'm having trouble viewing this statement as anything but cynical.

There is a divide between Gaza and the West Bank, sure; however, the reason for the divide is not solely the result of Palestinian actions.

9/19/2009 4:20:00 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"Not only is Israel refusing to admit they are in the wrong, they also continue to repeat the same actions that got the Palestinians/Arabs upset with them in the first place"


Both sides are in the wrong on most things. Bickering about who is more wrong than the other fixes nothing.

Quote :
"Based on those criteria, Hitlers Nazi regime had a right to exist."


And based on your criteria, the United States doesn't.

9/19/2009 5:32:06 PM

CharlesHF
All American
5543 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"For those of you who are still students, take Dr. Khater's History of the Israeli/Palestinian Conflict. It's a ton of work, but it's quite incredible really the amount you will learn. He's got a unique perspective, he's Lebanese, but not Muslim, and he's really good at being objective in what he covers."

This.

I took HI466 (History of the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict) and HI491O (Mid-East and the West seminar) with Dr. Khater. Fantastic professor, very knowledgeable, and very objective. He expects quite a bit of from his students and there is a lot of reading, but they were some of the best classes I took at NCSU.

[Edited on September 19, 2009 at 6:16 PM. Reason : ]

9/19/2009 6:15:51 PM

0EPII1
All American
40011 Posts
user info
edit post

bdmazur, what is the problem here?

We have founders of Israel and its leaders confessing to ethnic cleansing and stealing Arab people's lands.

It is simple, those lands should be given back. Because until that happens, Israel is an illegal, immoral, and sinful entity.

9/19/2009 6:36:41 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

When the US gives back the states taken from Britain through what they considered terrorist methods, and we give all the land rightfully back to the Native Americans who massacred, ethnically cleansed, and banished from their own lands, then you can use that argument.

Again, mistakes by leaders doesn't mean there was never a right to be there.

9/19/2009 7:54:33 PM

pooljobs
All American
3481 Posts
user info
edit post

i think in that analogy i would have Britain equaling Israel, not the US

9/19/2009 8:01:26 PM

Ytsejam
All American
2588 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"We have founders of Israel and its leaders confessing to ethnic cleansing and stealing Arab people's lands.

It is simple, those lands should be given back. Because until that happens, Israel is an illegal, immoral, and sinful entity."


lolz. How has what Israel has done any different than almost any other nation that has existed before. How did Arabs come to live in Palestine to begin with? Because, Palestine isn't part of Arabia.

9/19/2009 11:07:43 PM

Flying Tiger
All American
2341 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"How did Arabs come to live in Palestine to begin with? Because, Palestine isn't part of Arabia."

What kind of ridiculous argument is that? Arabs are not only called "Arabs" if they live in Arabia.
Quote :
"When the US gives back the states taken from Britain through what they considered terrorist methods, and we give all the land rightfully back to the Native Americans who massacred, ethnically cleansed, and banished from their own lands, then you can use that argument."

The Cherokee example somewhat applies to the current Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but I'd love to see you try to support "terrorist methods" on the part of the early Americans, especially since the British were mostly kicking the American's ass until the French gave them military and economic support. I don't see how the U.S. has to give the land back to the Indians for that argument to be valid, however. The government has certainly made a small amount of restitution. I haven't seen the Israeli government even come close to that.
Quote :
"Again, mistakes by leaders doesn't mean there was never a right to be there."

What about the rights of the Palestinian Arabs to be there? Tough shit for them, eh?

I took HI 454 with Dr. Mitchell (one of my Top 5 Classes Ever) in the spring. I ended up writing the term paper about the American views of the Palestinian Arabs from the end of WWII to the creation of the Israeli state and how those views influenced President Truman's policy towards Palestine.

9/20/2009 1:57:53 AM

zorthage
1+1=5
17143 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"The Cherokee example somewhat applies to the current Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but I'd love to see you try to support "terrorist methods" on the part of the early Americans, especially since the British were mostly kicking the American's ass until the French gave them military and economic support. I don't see how the U.S. has to give the land back to the Indians for that argument to be valid, however."


I'm pretty sure if Native American's weren't killed off so badly by disease, were somewhat matched in technology, and it wasn't 100-300 years ago, Native American's would be putting up just as much of a fight to stay on their homeland.

9/20/2009 2:10:44 AM

Flying Tiger
All American
2341 Posts
user info
edit post

And it's likely that I would be arguing in their favor as well.

9/20/2009 2:59:47 AM

joe_schmoe
All American
18742 Posts
user info
edit post

Israel is just continuing on the tradition of exterminating entire races of people who get in their way.

Palestinians are just the modern-day Canaanites / Ammonites / Edomites / Moabites / etc.

Jews are god's favorite peeps, dontcha know? they can kill all your women and children, destroy your livestock raze your villages and burn your crops.

The Jew-god digs that shit.

9/20/2009 4:30:21 AM

Ytsejam
All American
2588 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"What kind of ridiculous argument is that? Arabs are not only called "Arabs" if they live in Arabia.
"



And why is that? Because Arabs took over other lands from other people. Arabs conquered Palestine, killed, enslaved, and forcibly converted people living there, and moved some Arabs in. Get the point now? Arabs are crying over things their ancestors did a millenium ago.

The vast majority of countries that are around today were formed through one sort of bloodshed or another, and some group got the short end of the stick in one way or another. What the Israels have done is no different than what has been done throughout history. You have the power, then that gives you the right to exist.

9/20/2009 11:03:41 PM

IRSeriousCat
All American
6085 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"Arabs are crying over things their ancestors did a millenium[sic] ago."


Are we not expected to progress as a people? Is any behavior that was acceptable a millennium ago reasonable now?

Quote :
"What the Israels have done is no different than what has been done throughout history. You have the power, then that gives you the right to exist."


Is it your contention that all land should be up for grabs based on the amount of force you can exhibit? How far do you take this belief? If i kill your parents and lock you up in the close up stairs does this provide me with an innate legitimacy to live there because my might makes right? Does your belief not extend to a micro sense and only operate on a national level? If so do you agree with Russia on the Russian/Georgian conflict a year ago? Should the world idly sit by as one nation invades other nations one after the other?

9/21/2009 10:45:20 AM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

At what point has it been long enough for one to say, "oh well, that was such a long time ago there's no going back now."

The government of every single country in the Western hemisphere, and most of Europe too, was able to be founded because one group won a war against another. Should all of them just give back their lands to the original residents (if enough of them are still alive at this point)?

9/21/2009 5:12:37 PM

pooljobs
All American
3481 Posts
user info
edit post

no, but they should probably stop taking and colonizing land, ghettoizing populations, and restricting movement to the point that it is effectively a blockade.

9/21/2009 5:58:21 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

^I agree with the overall point of your statement, but not your terminology.

9/21/2009 11:57:00 PM

IRSeriousCat
All American
6085 Posts
user info
edit post

If a change in terminology helps you sleep at night that is fine for you, but regarding the truth of his statement the terminology is apt.

also, there is a point where after time passes the people currently involved should no longer be condemned for the actions of others in the past. however, this does not apply with Israel because the same abusive policies they have used in the past are being implemented even today.

9/22/2009 10:39:41 AM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

If Native Americans were launching rockets at American cities on an almost daily basis, I wonder how we would be treating them.

9/22/2009 11:05:39 AM

Shrike
All American
9129 Posts
user info
edit post

Saddam had all the right to take over Kuwait with his military power! Might makes right! Why are we paying Mexico for oil and Canada for timber when we can just take them over with our military might!

It's fucking 2009 people, human civilization has advanced, shit doesn't work that way anymore. The only way the Israel/Palestine situation will ever be solved is if the west (mainly the US) starts treating both sides with some measure of even handedness.

As long as we're giving Israel $3 billion a year while giving the Palestinians bupkis, shit will stay exactly the same as it is today. As long as we're treating Israel like a legitimate country and the Palestinians as nothing but a terrorist organization, nothing will change.

Short of that, things will stay exactly like they are today until Israel finally succeeds in wiping out whatever Palestinians are left, or Hamas gets their hands on a nuke and sets it off in Tel Aviv. Personally, I'm betting on the latter.

[Edited on September 22, 2009 at 11:25 AM. Reason : :]

9/22/2009 11:23:54 AM

IRSeriousCat
All American
6085 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"If Native Americans were launching rockets at American cities on an almost daily basis, I wonder how we would be treating them."


it seems to me that you're looking at it from the wrong direction. just as when the lands of the native americans were invaded they retaliated with the arsenals available to them at the time, the palestinians are doing the same thing. the onus is on israel to stop with the archaic and inhumane tactics. these attacks are a response by palestine for israel's permitted atrocities.

i bet at best you'll view it as a chicken/egg argument, but history indicates otherwise.

9/22/2009 2:07:57 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"As long as we're giving Israel $3 billion a year while giving the Palestinians bupkis, shit will stay exactly the same as it is today. As long as we're treating Israel like a legitimate country and the Palestinians as nothing but a terrorist organization, nothing will change."


Its not like the US is throwing money at Israel (as if we had money to throw at anybody), it is a system of trade. Israeli technology is used on a daily basis by the average American.

Quote :
"i bet at best you'll view it as a chicken/egg argument, but history indicates otherwise."


what does history indicate then? that land has changed hands so many times there is no group who can say for certain they were there in the beginning.

[Edited on September 22, 2009 at 8:24 PM. Reason : -]

9/22/2009 8:23:17 PM

pooljobs
All American
3481 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"If Native Americans were launching rockets at American cities on an almost daily basis, I wonder how we would be treating them."

The walls and colonies aren't effective at stopping any rockets, so are you saying they should continue to do it in spite?

9/22/2009 8:53:11 PM

bdmazur
California Dreamin'
12989 Posts
user info
edit post

Wrong. After the construction of the wall began, the number of rocket attacks cut by 25% the following year.

9/22/2009 8:59:25 PM

pooljobs
All American
3481 Posts
user info
edit post

i believe you mean bombings, and that should be expected when you restrict movement so much that people can barely even get food and medical aid. Even if the statistic is correct, it won't be in the long run. When you blaze fields and tear down houses and trees to build a wall that even the Israeli Supreme Court has said needs to be moved, the hate that breeds from that will breed new bombers. The UN Court of Justice has even said that the wall should be removed.

9/22/2009 10:02:03 PM

IRSeriousCat
All American
6085 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"what does history indicate then? that land has changed hands so many times there is no group who can say for certain they were there in the beginning."


it appears as if you prefer setting up straw mans instead of addressing the crux of points at hand. i'm not sure if you're doing this because you're being stubborn or because to actually address these points would require you to reflect on these issues internally and your bias may become evident even to you.

history indicates that since the israeli government has been set up in the area formerly known as palestine that Israel has continue to dehumanize the Palestinian population to rationalize their unjust behavior just as was done with slavery in the United States. The difference between these two abhorrent behaviors is that one was ceased and rectified and the other has yet to evolve and in many ways continues to get worse as time passes.


Lets address a few other things for the moment. Your OP contains information that is entirely disingenuous and nonfactual.

Quote :
"The Palestinians didn't like their end of the bargain, they attacked the day after Israel declared itself an independent nation, Israel and its day-old military defended, Israel won. 4 wars later the borders have changed, because that's what happens in war."


For starters you refer to the exchanging of lands as a bargain, which infers it was something that was mutually agreed upon prior to execution. If I come to your house and take items of my choosing would you say that "you didn't like your end of the bargain" if you weren't pleased by it?

Just a few words later you state that the palestinians attacked israel the day after as if there had been no precursor. The OP describes the situation as if the Yishuv had purely altruistic goals and peaceful intentions from the start. I'm sure you're aware of Haganah and other terrorist organizations which actively attacked the palestinian population and villages for two years prior to official establishment of Israel and the 1948 conflict. The aims of these zionist terrorist groups, who were head by people who later became active leaders in israeli government, were to drive out the existing population as to prepare more land to be claimed by established israel. For many years these guerrilla groups were attacking the palestinians and were then collectively organized and backed legitimately which rightfully frightened the remaining palestinian population. The actions by palestine in 1948 was not the beginning of a war, but rather a continuation of one that the zionist had already started.


You sum up your little rant by nonchalantly stating that borders changed and thats what happens in war. As if it was an unavoidable consequence. When a nation's goals consistently align with the end result of circumstance one has to question whether the motives are in fact intended to reach these goals. With every war Israel had a goal of expansion of territory and a reduction of the existing palestinian population. This took place in the 1948 conflict, and also predominately in the 6 day war, in which Israel attacked first*. These weren't hapless circumstances, but rather strategically planned goals and active desires as Israel's active participation in instigation indicates. The reductive borders of Palestine wasn't just "what happens" it is what israel wanted to happen.

As evidenced above Israel has a historical behavior of deliberate and systematic destruction, in part, of the ethnic and national group known as the palestinians. Israel, therefore, by pure definition is a willing participant of intentional genocide.


*during the 6 day war egypt and other nations got word that Israel was mounting an attack on their nations. The arab world mounted troops and prepared them, but did not attack. Israel used the mounting of these troops as rationalization for a preemptive strike. Two important factors come to mind here. 1. The manner in which Isreal acknowledges their right to preemptively engage while simultaneously repudiating the arab nations right to merely organize prior to potential attack. 2. how Israel was so tactically organized for something that was unplanned.

9/23/2009 10:29:34 AM

TKE-Teg
All American
42157 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"He's got a unique perspective, he's Lebanese, but not Muslim, and he's really good at being objective in what he covers."


While he may indeed be objective, stating that he is Lebanese and not Muslim doesn't help his credibility. Given, ya know, that Muslims murdered and drove out the Christians from that historically (demographically speaking) Christian nation just a few decades ago.

9/23/2009 12:46:56 PM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
47524 Posts
user info
edit post

Admittedly, my memory is hazy but weren't the majority of those Palestinian refugees who supported the Lebanese Civil War expelled and kicked out of their homes in Israel in 1948?

[Edited on September 23, 2009 at 12:59 PM. Reason : x]

9/23/2009 12:57:34 PM

mambagrl
Suspended
4724 Posts
user info
edit post

^^thanks for the info. like i said, he gives the "same ole story". Find La Vopa for the truth.

9/23/2009 8:32:15 PM

Gzusfrk
All American
2988 Posts
user info
edit post

^But what is the "same old story"? You've already been asked that in this thread, and yet you haven't answered. There's is nothing biased or closed minded about Dr. Khater. He and his wife were the best professors I've ever had.

Here's a link to Dr. Khater's website, with a syllabus, if anyone is interested. http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/akhater/personal/classes.htm

[Edited on September 23, 2009 at 8:41 PM. Reason : link]

9/23/2009 8:38:24 PM

Flying Tiger
All American
2341 Posts
user info
edit post

Quote :
"If Native Americans were launching rockets at American cities on an almost daily basis, I wonder how we would be treating them."

Being the historian I am, I would ask, "Why are they launching rockets? Do they have reason to be angry?" If the United States was killing as many civilians as Israel is now, I think I could possibly find it in my heart to understand the Indians and why they were acting a certain way.

9/23/2009 9:32:42 PM

TKE-Teg
All American
42157 Posts
user info
edit post

^so you'd take pity on the Indians, despite Indians walking into marketplaces with dynamite laden vests on and blowing themselves up?

9/24/2009 9:28:21 AM

IRSeriousCat
All American
6085 Posts
user info
edit post

short answer: yes.

they are willing to commit to the ultimate sacrifice because they believe there is no other way to reach their goals given that words have not helped, one of the largest economies backs their aggressor with impunity and when atrocities of the aggressor are globally recognized and behavior discouraged by the same councils we use for justification of action on an international scale nothing gets done.

blowing themselves isn't a first attempt at solving their problem, its the final desperate attempt because they are a people without hope.

don't think for one minute that israel dislikes these people blowing themselves up either. as far as israel is concerned thats one less palestinian with which they have to deal.

9/24/2009 10:03:49 AM

mytwocents
All American
20650 Posts
user info
edit post

^wow. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you are trying to troll in which case well done. I sort of hope you are because I refuse to believe that you could be that clueless....

9/24/2009 1:20:06 PM

IRSeriousCat
All American
6085 Posts
user info
edit post

I'm in no way trying to troll. Have you read any of the thread or just my last comment? Judging from the thread you're in the minority with your position if you disagree with my statement.

Feel free to contribute to the thread and point out the flaws in any of the information I have addressed for this topic, conversely, you can feel free to back out here and just use the classic "[I] don't have time and its so wrong it isn't worth [my] time" back pedal.

screw it. Let me skip one step in this process.

U.N. resolutions against Israel

Quote :
"
UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992.

Note that Israel is in VIOLATION of many of these Resolutions.

1. Resolution 106: "...condemns Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...condemns Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...recommends Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...urges Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...censures Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...urges Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "...condemns Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "...calls on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "...deeply deplores Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...declares invalid Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "...condemns Israeli raids on Jordan as flagrant violation"
13. Resolution 259: "...deplores Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...condemns Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "...condemns Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...censures Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...condemns Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...condemns Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...demands withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "...condemns Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...demands immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...deplores Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...demands that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...condemns Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...deplores Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...condemns Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...condemns Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...condemns Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...calls on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon"
31. Resolution 444: "...deplores Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...determines that Israeli settlements are a serious obstruction to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...calls on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...calls on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...deplores Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...strongly deplores Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...strongly deplores Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians"
39. Resolution 471: "...expresses deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "...reiterates that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are null and void"
41. Resolution 478: "...censures (Israel) in the strongest terms for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
42. Resolution 484: "...declares it imperative that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...strongly condemns Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...decides that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is null and void and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...calls on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...calls on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...demands that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...demands that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...censures Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...demands that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...condemns Israel's attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...condemns Israel vigorously for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters"
53. Resolution 587: "...takes note of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...strongly deplores the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"
55. Resolution 605: "...strongly deplores Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians"
56. Resolution 607: "...calls on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
57. Resolution 608: "...deeply regrets that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...deeply regrets Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians"
59. Resolution 641: "...deplores Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians"
60. Resolution 672: "...condemns Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount"
61. Resolution 673: "...deplores Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations"
62. Resolution 681: "...deplores Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians"
63. Resolution 694: "...deplores Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return"
64. Resolution 726: "...strongly condemns Israel's deportation of Palestinians"
65. Resolution 799: "...strongly condemns Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return."

"




[Edited on September 24, 2009 at 1:39 PM. Reason : facts, use them]

9/24/2009 1:27:35 PM

 Message Boards » The Soap Box » Israel/Palestine Page [1] 2 3 4 5 ... 29, Next  
go to top | |
Admin Options : move topic | lock topic

© 2017 by The Wolf Web - All Rights Reserved.
The material located at this site is not endorsed, sponsored or provided by or on behalf of North Carolina State University.
Powered by CrazyWeb v2.37 - our disclaimer.