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IRSeriousCat
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People arguing on a message board trying to reach consensus about something which many people have never reached a consensus.

L

O

L

9/13/2010 12:01:21 PM

bdmazur
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Welcome to http://www.thewolfweb.com

9/13/2010 12:26:28 PM

McDanger
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Quote :
"I'm sure there is a small liberal minority in Israel that opposes their blatant human rights violations. But they sure aren't making much noise."


This actually reveals how little you know about the situation. Zionism is an issue that falls neither on the right or on the left, properly speaking. Most of the original Zionists were socialists and formed kibbutzim (communes).

Quote :
"People arguing on a message board trying to reach consensus about something which many people have never reached a consensus."


There are really only two positions on this issue:

(1) The atrocities and crimes are NOT justified.
(2) The atrocities and crimes ARE justified because the moral necessity of Zionism trumps all other moral concerns.

There are plenty of other positions where people are willing to apologize and warp the situation to fit their moral framework. The frustration with this thread is the sheer ignorance and lack of factual accuracy. All opinions based on ignorance of the facts are unreasonable, as the facts are out there and not hard to obtain.

[Edited on September 13, 2010 at 1:38 PM. Reason : .]

9/13/2010 1:34:22 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"Just because the American media doesn't cover them it doesn't mean the protests aren't happening and aren't a huge deal."


Quote :
"This actually reveals how little you know about the situation."


Hey! We agreed on something! It is so hard to have this conversation with people who aren't connected to it. Although we've disagreed so much I just want to say I respect you for your passion on the issue, and you speak about it with care and not with a need to prove the worth of your knowledge.

Quote :
"There are really only two positions on this issue:

(1) The atrocities and crimes are NOT justified.
(2) The atrocities and crimes ARE justified because the moral necessity of Zionism trumps all other moral concerns."


These are the two positions on the issue of whether Israel is in the wrong or not. There are however several other issues compounded into the entire situation (including American and/or UN involvement, implications of Palestinian and Israeli leadership, interference from other Arab nations, the people's voices within each group, etc). There is more than just one side to this. For example, I believe in Israel's right to exist where it is, Israel's right to defend itself, I am against the miserable living conditions in Palestine caused by Israel, against the killing of innocent people on other side, in favor of a two-state solution, in favor of American moderation in the peace talks, and on the fence about the blockade (although I agree Israel had the right to board the Turkish flotilla since the blockade was in effect, regardless of if the blockade was right to begin with).

My position has made many Zionists upset with me, and many anti-Zionists upset with me. I have Palestinian friends who agree with a lot of it, and other Palestinians I have encountered think I am evil and crazy. There's a lot of differing views to have.

9/13/2010 2:28:26 PM

McDanger
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Quote :
"For example, I believe in Israel's right to exist where it is, Israel's right to defend itself, I am against the miserable living conditions in Palestine caused by Israel, against the killing of innocent people on other side, in favor of a two-state solution, in favor of American moderation in the peace talks, and on the fence about the blockade (although I agree Israel had the right to board the Turkish flotilla since the blockade was in effect, regardless of if the blockade was right to begin with).

My position has made many Zionists upset with me, and many anti-Zionists upset with me. I have Palestinian friends who agree with a lot of it, and other Palestinians I have encountered think I am evil and crazy. There's a lot of differing views to have."


Certainly there are most positions about how the two-state solution can be reached.

Just curious: how do you feel about the official Jewishness of Israel? Should this continue, and if it should, what costs are acceptable to maintain it? Also, how do you feel about "natural expansion" (read: violent takeover). Should this continue or halt?

[Edited on September 13, 2010 at 3:41 PM. Reason : .]

9/13/2010 3:40:52 PM

bdmazur
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^Those are things I think about a lot, and I will respond to them when I get home from work. I need more time to gather my thoughts and put them into words than I have right now, just want to let you know they are coming later.

9/13/2010 4:14:23 PM

McDanger
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Bump for realposts over Yankeeposts.

9/15/2010 3:57:33 PM

smc
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Talks fail due to Israel's failure to stop stealing land.

9/15/2010 7:56:12 PM

McDanger
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Bump I wanna see my questions answered

9/17/2010 12:08:15 PM

bdmazur
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My bad I got really distracted this week.

Quote :
"how do you feel about the official Jewishness of Israel?"


As an American Jew who cares deeply about tradition, Israel confuses the hell out of me. Most of my Israeli friends are as secular as you can get. They are Jews by heritage but not by practice. I think this is mainly because in Israel you are either Orthodox or you aren't, and the middle sects haven't picked up, mainly because the Orthodox won't recognize them as real forms of Judaism. So although Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist Jews exist in Israel, they are persecuted against by the traditionalists and it makes it a lot easier to just be 100% secularized. This is why I don't believe that any of this conflict has anything to do with religious beliefs. Fox News tries to act like this is Jews vs Muslims but it isn't. Especially since there are Muslims in Israel and Christians in Palestine that take sides as a nationalities and not as religious groups. As a Reform Jew, it very much upsets me that on one side you have haters and on the other you have nothings, because it means if you disagree with just one aspect of the old ways then you are pretty much forced to give it up all together with no middle ground to choose.

Quote :
"Should this continue, and if it should, what costs are acceptable to maintain it?"


I'm not sure what you're asking here. Should what continue? If you mean the "Jewishness of Israel" then my response is that there isn't a single definition of what the Jewishness of Israel really is.

Quote :
"Also, how do you feel about "natural expansion" (read: violent takeover). Should this continue or halt?"


I am against the violent taking of someone else's land. I am against the ongoing construction of settlements in the territories. I do however believe that the people who are there already and have been for a while should be given a choice to stay or not. If that land becomes officially part of a new Palestinian nation, then you tell them either come back behind our borders or become Palestinian, and I think we all know which choice they would take. But when Sharon tried to militarily remove Jewish settlers, it was a disaster. These things need to be handled delicately. I don't believe that land obtained due to direct war should have to go back to their former countries. Israel needs to protect itself from Syria, who I believe is the biggest threat after Iran, and must of the strategic position of the Golan Heights in order to know what's coming. Whoever owns the top of the mountain has a clear strategical advantage, and Israel cannot lose it. When Israel gave Egypt back the Sinai Peninsula in exchange for ongoing peace, they showed that they are absolutely open to negotiation. But no other current/former enemy has been willing to follow such an agreement the way Egypt has.

9/17/2010 2:56:49 PM

McDanger
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Quote :
"I'm not sure what you're asking here. Should what continue? If you mean the "Jewishness of Israel" then my response is that there isn't a single definition of what the Jewishness of Israel really is."


Israel is officially a Jewish state. This is what I mean.

Quote :
"I am against the violent taking of someone else's land. I am against the ongoing construction of settlements in the territories."


*high five*

9/17/2010 4:23:01 PM

0EPII1
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Everybody should watch this video, it is just 3 minutes long, but exposes the brutality, lies, hypocrisy, and authoritarianism of the beasts known as the IDF.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0

Not only did they mortally wound an innocent woman, they also delayed her evacuation (she might have lived), tore apart the house, broke the living room wall to go in to the adjacent house, and then ordered all 3 TV networks not to show the video to the public.

Fuck Ranaan Gissin, fuck the soldiers, fuck the IDF, and fuck their war decimation and terrorizing machines.

Quote :
"The arrangement is this: All 3 networks here agree that if the army doesn't like what's filmed, the footage is never broadcast."


One of the channels broke the embargo and showed the video to the world.

Now just imagine how many civilians have been killed in the past 30 years secretly like this, and the footage is lying somewhere in some storage.

Funny how the West always wants the "moderate Muslims" and the "Muslim World" to condemn terrorist acts and groups from among the Muslims (and until they do, all Muslims are complicit!), but somehow, they (the Western people) are immune from the same requirement, i.e., condemning the terrorism of the IDF (and 'rogue' Western soldiers, see Afghanistan/Iraq).

Fact is, the IDF is orders of magnitude worse than Hamas, and it does a lot less good than Hamas. Hamas has a military wing, but also a social wing which helps the poor, distributes food, does reconstruction, etc. What does IDF do other than killing civilians and then HIDING IT?

At least the method that Palestinians use to kill a handful of Israelis exposes the dead and the whole world can see. But the IDF kills scores secretly and then forces censorship on the TV channels... bad luck for the Palestinians I guess.... Only if they had equal military strength!

Israeli Government = Terrorists
IDF = Terrorists

And now we can also add this, because they don't condemn the terrorism of the gov and IDF:

Israeli People (save the small minority who fight for Palestinians' rights) = Terrorists


[Edited on September 29, 2010 at 12:00 PM. Reason : ]

9/29/2010 11:59:02 AM

Ytsejam
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All Muslims = Terrorists

See I can play too!

9/29/2010 1:38:55 PM

mambagrl
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you've been playing the whole time though. Thats the point.

9/29/2010 1:43:19 PM

0EPII1
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^^ Wow, are you that dense? See ^. And maybe... read my post?

And in fairness, I forgot a word:

Israeli People (save the small minority who fight for Palestinians' rights) = Terrorist sympathizers.

BTW, since you said nothing at all about the murder and other violations and the censorship, it could only mean 2 things:

1) You refuse to condemn the atrocities and hypocrisy.
2) You agree with my condemnation.

Either way, it proves my point. Thanks.

9/29/2010 2:23:44 PM

elduderino
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Yeah, Ytsejam, you're completely off base. It's actually

All Muslims = Terrorist sympathizers


And lol at Opie defending Hamas.

"Listen guys, they might be terrorists, but they're not as terrorist as you think."

10/1/2010 8:38:50 PM

0EPII1
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Another illiterate moron who pokes his head in the middle of something without having a clue as to what the fuck has been discussed so far... and anyway, as I said to the other illiterate moron, just my post is enough to see what the context is, but being illiterate....

10/1/2010 8:56:36 PM

elduderino
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lol,

yeah, it's everyone else.

not you.

10/3/2010 10:35:01 PM

McDanger
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Actually it is you.

[Edited on October 3, 2010 at 10:42 PM. Reason : If your sanity check is "other Americans" on Israel/Palestine then get more educated immediately]

10/3/2010 10:41:24 PM

elduderino
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How condescending, Mr. Authority On The Matter.

Not to mention you completely missed the context of my post, but I don't engage in the joke that is Soap Box, so I won't bother clarifying.

I was only trying to find the straw that broke the mambagrl's back, as her second to last post resided in this thread.

Cheers.

[Edited on October 3, 2010 at 11:13 PM. Reason : .]

10/3/2010 11:08:11 PM

McDanger
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Wow.

10/4/2010 12:45:24 AM

0EPII1
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Jewish Terrorists Torch a Mosque in the West Bank
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11477037

(4th attack on mosques by Jewish Terrorists in the past few months)

(They are called "price-tag" attacks... those words are spray-painted on the mosques to remind Palestinians about the "price-tag" of asking for settlements to be removed from the WB)

Some wretched facts:

Quote :
"Israeli settlements on occupied land

- Nearly 500,000 settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, alongside 2.5 million Palestinians
- 20,000 settlers live in the Golan Heights
- Settlements and the area they take up cover 40% of the West Bank
- There are about 100 settlements not authorised by the Israeli government in the West Bank... (aside from the 149 authorised settlements)"


So 40% of the area for 500,000 people, and 60% of the area for 2,500,000 people.

And just look at the picture... if they get their own country, what kind of country would that be with all the fucking land usurpers criss-crossing the land and breaking it up into tens of pieces?

10/5/2010 7:54:01 PM

Prawn Star
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Yep, the Settlers are a little crazy. But at this point, they believe that they are fighting for their homeland. Many of them have lived their whole lives in these settlements, and after seeing settlers forcibly removed from Sinai and Gaza, they are determined not to let it happen to them.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are employed in the settlements. These settlements are prosperous in part due to the cheap labor that the Palestinians provide. When they are not blowing each other up, these 2 sides work together pretty well. You gotta wonder if there is a solution that doesn't involve boundaries and 1 group or the other being forcibly removed.

10/5/2010 9:30:35 PM

0EPII1
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Quote :
"You gotta wonder if there is a solution that doesn't involve boundaries and 1 group or the other being forcibly removed."


Well that would be the best thing, but do you think it is possible?

Possibilities:

1) Palestinians do not demand removal of settlements and agree to let them stay in a future Palestinian nation. If they (settlers) stay, they will become Palestinian citizens. Would they (Israelis) agree with that? Of course not, they would rather die than become Palestinians. So, they would leave, but with violence, and some would refuse to leave and refuse to become Palestinians, and will resist removal with their limbs and life.

2) Palestinians demand removal of settlements if WB is to become part of a future Palestinian nation, and Israel says no. And that leads us to the deadlock we have been in now for many many years.

10/5/2010 9:38:43 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
""Our goal is to share our horror at the attack of the mosque and to clearly state that this is not the way of the Torah or the Jewish way," said Rabbi Shlomo Brin of the Yeshivat Har Etzion."


Real religious leaders stepping up to say that this is not their way.

Too bad when Israeli settlements are attacked, the Imams aren't standing there saying the same thing.

10/5/2010 10:06:47 PM

McDanger
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Quote :
"Yep, the Settlers are a little crazy."


Understatement of the year. How do you imagine Islamic terrorists as "batshit crazy" but Israeli settlers as "a little crazy"? And yet you claim not to be ignorant. Either you have a massive double standard or a massive lack of information. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt when I assume you're ignorant, given the nature of these statements you trot out.

Quote :
"But at this point, they believe that they are fighting for their homeland."


They believed it when they were stealing the land before, too


[Edited on October 5, 2010 at 10:17 PM. Reason : .]

10/5/2010 10:12:39 PM

Prawn Star
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I don't remember calling the Palestinian terrorists "batshit crazy", but please correct me if I did.

Nevertheless, you and Trap make it sound like the Settlers are big bullies, constantly attacking those poor Palestinian victims. The truth is that both sides are guilty of terrorism and violence, the Palestinians moreso than the Settlers. Over 200 settlers have been killed by the Palestinians in the West Bank over the last 10 years, while 43 Palestinians in the West Bank have been killed by settlers. A bit 1-sided, don't you think?

10/5/2010 10:42:30 PM

McDanger
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Not when you consider the amounts of land being stolen forcefully. You have to compare all crimes being committed, here. Just because one side is just interested in seizing the land (by any means necessary) doesn't mean they're going after people to kill them outright. Those attacking back have that incentive, however.

How exactly would you respond if somebody booted your family off of their land by forcefully moving in?

10/6/2010 1:27:30 AM

GeniuSxBoY
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Nobody knows what the fuck is going on.
Everyone thinks or believes the know what the fuck is going on.
Palestine thinks they know what's going on.
Israel thinks they know what's going on.


Nobody has any fucking clue what's going on.


There are two solutions to ending this conflict.
1. Fight to the death
2. Education that all people were created equal.

10/6/2010 2:35:44 AM

disco_stu
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Quote :
"There are two solutions to ending this conflict.
1. Fight to the death
2. Education that all people were created equal."


Only one of these solutions is compatible with the religions present on Earth. But people can only get their morality from religion amirite?

10/6/2010 8:50:44 AM

bdmazur
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^
Quote :
"this is not the way of the Torah or the Jewish way"

10/6/2010 9:35:53 AM

disco_stu
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Isn't the Torah the very justification the Jews give for that land belonging to them?

Quote :
"13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."


Quote :
"19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:"


You can make the claim that there is no theme of Jewish superiority in the Torah, but you'd be lying.

10/6/2010 10:02:43 AM

bdmazur
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Muslims are also the seed of Abraham, btw, and Jews recognize that. This is not a religious war over who G-d promised what.

And if being the chosen people of G-d means 400 years of slavery, being kicked out of your homeland 5 different times, having half of your population forced to convert upon penalty of torture and death, and then half of what was left thrown into gas chambers, then yeah, I guess we are treasured above all others.

Aside from a few distinct nutcases, the majority of Jews in the world do not buy into the chosen people crap. In fact, I've had evangelicals call me "chosen" way more than any Jews have, but that's because those evangelicals hate Arabs and want the Jews to reign so Jesus will return. If anyone is making this about religion, its them.

This is and has always been a political battle over borders and rights.

[Edited on October 6, 2010 at 10:13 AM. Reason : -]

10/6/2010 10:11:22 AM

disco_stu
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You're right it has nothing to do with religion. My bad. Bulldozing Jerusalem and splitting it down the middle seems like an obvious solution then.

I'll concede that the problem is not entirely because of religion. But to state that Jewish/Muslim/Christian beliefs are compatible is ludicrous. They are each mutually exclusive with each other and history has demonstrated that peaceful coexistence is difficult at best.

I guess it's just the Jewish people that are able to live with everyone else. Those damned gentiles can't get along, right?

And more to the point: if it really is cool and all "non-crazy" Jews think Palestinians should be treated exactly as they are, what's wrong with allowing them to return to Israel and become Israelis? Let me guess, they're worried that they'll be horribly outnumbered by the people that the "non-crazy" Jews think should be treated as equals.

[Edited on October 6, 2010 at 10:59 AM. Reason : .]

10/6/2010 10:46:19 AM

smc
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Is Israel still fucking up the peace process?

10/6/2010 1:02:41 PM

McDanger
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Quote :
"Nobody knows what the fuck is going on.
Everyone thinks or believes the know what the fuck is going on.
Palestine thinks they know what's going on.
Israel thinks they know what's going on.


Nobody has any fucking clue what's going on.


There are two solutions to ending this conflict.
1. Fight to the death
2. Education that all people were created equal."


Speak for yourself. Also your "two solutions" are way too naive and narrow. Looks like a textbook case of psychological projection; "I have no idea what's going on here so I'm going to assume nobody else does either." LOL.

Quote :
"You're right it has nothing to do with religion. My bad. Bulldozing Jerusalem and splitting it down the middle seems like an obvious solution then."


Sigh more boiler-plate anti-religious head-up-the-ass ass-buried-in-sand bullshit from disco_stu. Let me know when you return to planet fucking Earth so we can start addressing realistic solutions and not pie-in-the-sky teenage atheist fantasies.

Quote :
"But to state that Jewish/Muslim/Christian beliefs are compatible is ludicrous. They are each mutually exclusive with each other and history has demonstrated that peaceful coexistence is difficult at best."


There's likely more examples of peace than war. They're surely compatible in a society where everybody realizes the value of liberty (for others and for themselves).

Quote :
"I guess it's just the Jewish people that are able to live with everyone else. Those damned gentiles can't get along, right?

And more to the point: if it really is cool and all "non-crazy" Jews think Palestinians should be treated exactly as they are, what's wrong with allowing them to return to Israel and become Israelis? Let me guess, they're worried that they'll be horribly outnumbered by the people that the "non-crazy" Jews think should be treated as equals."


They're worried Israel will lose its status as a Jewish state. There are many reasons Israelis want this; very few of those reasons are religious in nature. Having a safe home base that Jews anywhere in the world can use as a go-to is extremely important to them, given their history. It should not be surprising that secular Israelis see the value in having an official Jewish state (unless you suddenly want to claim that culture = religion).

Quote :
"Is Israel still fucking up the peace process?"


Fabulously. And their immoral, uninformed goons in America continue to revise and spin their clearly-stated motivations.

10/6/2010 2:14:37 PM

smc
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Yup, definitely Israel's fault.

These savages deserve what's coming to them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk0GITe7Oto&feature=related

[Edited on October 6, 2010 at 2:37 PM. Reason : And what's coming to them is BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF AMERICAN DOLLARS. ]

10/6/2010 2:35:47 PM

disco_stu
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Quote :
"There's likely more examples of peace than war. They're surely compatible in a society where everybody realizes the value of liberty (for others and for themselves). "


I'd cite passages from respective religious texts and examples of religious violence and bigotry throughout the history of humanity, but apparently Christians and Muslims and Jews all love each other and don't think that each of the other religions are abominations. Just the crazy ones, I'm sure.

Quote :
"They're worried Israel will lose its status as a Jewish state. There are many reasons Israelis want this; very few of those reasons are religious in nature. Having a safe home base that Jews anywhere in the world can use as a go-to is extremely important to them, given their history. It should not be surprising that secular Israelis see the value in having an official Jewish state (unless you suddenly want to claim that culture = religion)."


I certainly won't claim culture = religion but I don't think it's so easy to separate Jewish culture from Judaism. Nor Palestinian culture from Islam.

But you know what? The name calling has convinced me. Religion has absolutely nothing to do with the tension in the middle east and has generally been a benefit to both ancient and modern societies. I'm ready to join the adults and blame everything on secular Israelis and dismiss any examples of religious bigotry or violence as crackpot fringe outliers.

10/6/2010 3:08:58 PM

smc
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Religious, secular....they're all horrible people for allowing these atrocities.

10/6/2010 3:39:54 PM

McDanger
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Quote :
"I'd cite passages from respective religious texts and examples of religious violence and bigotry throughout the history of humanity, but apparently Christians and Muslims and Jews all love each other and don't think that each of the other religions are abominations. Just the crazy ones, I'm sure."


As atheists just like you and me always point out, religious traditions deviate quite drastically from the holy texts they're founded upon or grant authority to. Equivocating religion with religious holy texts is misguided, and quoting parts of holy text to prove religious practicioners are or "must be" a certain way is about as ridiculous as expecting them to keep their own commandments (or even to know what they are, in many cases).

There's nothing that says holy texts cannot be interpreted figuratively, or even revised. There is a notion of moral progress in religion, and obviously Catholics in the 11th century have different religiously inspired moral attitudes than Catholics today. The fact that you're missing this suggests to me that you're doing it intentionally. Stop being so shady and think fairly, you're supposed to be a rationalist of some sort.

Quote :
"I certainly won't claim culture = religion but I don't think it's so easy to separate Jewish culture from Judaism. Nor Palestinian culture from Islam."


There is a sizable portion of Palestinian Christians and your failure to recognize them is blind conformance to the standard US-narrative. As for Judaism, the number of secular Jews vs. observant Jews is staggering.

Quote :
"But you know what? The name calling has convinced me. Religion has absolutely nothing to do with the tension in the middle east and has generally been a benefit to both ancient and modern societies. I'm ready to join the adults and blame everything on secular Israelis and dismiss any examples of religious bigotry or violence as crackpot fringe outliers."


Or you could dig your head out of your petulant little ass and realize that, while religion and various religious justifications contribute to this conflict, they are not the whole story (or even, in many cases, a piece of it). What's at stake here is a simple land grab that has further impoverished and marginalized a remarkably large population.

Whether religion is a net positive or negative is irrelevant here because it's not primarily a religious conflict. I don't know how else to put that to you. But then again, you will continue to ignore facts and the world around you and assert that religion is the main motivator or cause of this crap. Just say it over and over again until it's true, because that doesn't make you like the religious at all.

If you're going to be a little anti-religion crusader, then stick to your guns and be an empiricist already.

Edit:

Quote :
"Bulldozing Jerusalem and splitting it down the middle seems like an obvious solution then."


Fuck you for saying it, even if it's in jest.

[Edited on October 6, 2010 at 3:52 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2010 3:49:58 PM

disco_stu
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Quote :
"There is a sizable portion of Palestinian Christians and your failure to recognize them is blind conformance to the standard US-narrative. As for Judaism, the number of secular Jews vs. observant Jews is staggering. "


Define "sizable" and "living within Palestinian Territories" in regards to the Palestinian Christians. Also, how's it working out for the few Palestinian Christians that *are* in Palestinian territories? The murders, kidnappings, and other human rights violations also purely political in nature only?

I'll concede the point on Judaism, even when speaking only about Jews in Israel. I take back any suggestion that religion has anything to do with conflict in the Middle East or even Planet Earth in general throughout the history of humanity. Any mention of religion from me will be purely on its lack of scientific or logical veracity.

10/6/2010 4:12:39 PM

smc
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Quote :
"Bulldozing Jerusalem and splitting it down the middle seems like an obvious solution then."


I like this. It's only fair.

It's a good thing Rahm Emanuel is gone now. Maybe Obama will actually be more sensible about our criminal support of the rogue state of Israel.

[Edited on October 6, 2010 at 4:50 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2010 4:43:12 PM

McDanger
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Quote :
"Define "sizable" and "living within Palestinian Territories" in regards to the Palestinian Christians. Also, how's it working out for the few Palestinian Christians that *are* in Palestinian territories? The murders, kidnappings, and other human rights violations also purely political in nature only?"


Palestinian Christians overall are ~8 percent I believe, Arab Christians in Israel at large ~10 percent.

Which murders, kidnappings, and human rights violations are you talking about? The IDF's or Palestinian gangs? Because you're going to get a variety of answers.

Quote :
"I'll concede the point on Judaism, even when speaking only about Jews in Israel. I take back any suggestion that religion has anything to do with conflict in the Middle East or even Planet Earth in general throughout the history of humanity. Any mention of religion from me will be purely on its lack of scientific or logical veracity."


It does you no good to pretend I'm arguing something stronger than I am, just to dismiss what I'm saying as false. Stop being such a sloppy thinker and step up to the plate. Develop already.

Quote :
"I like this. It's only fair."


Only somebody who has never seen Jerusalem could write something this clueless

[Edited on October 6, 2010 at 6:15 PM. Reason : .]

10/6/2010 6:14:25 PM

smc
All American
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Quote :
" They argued back and forth in front of Solomon, 23until finally he said, "Both of you say this live baby is yours. 24Someone bring me a sword."

A sword was brought, and Solomon ordered, 25"Cut the baby in half! That way each of you can have part of him.""


[Edited on October 6, 2010 at 6:51 PM. Reason : And then the mother with nuclear weapons and the support of the worlds only superpower got the baby.]

10/6/2010 6:44:06 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"I'll concede the point on Judaism, even especially when speaking only about Jews in Israel."


Fixed it for you. Religion is way less of a factor in the life of an average Israeli than it is in the life of an average American. They are Jews by heritage and culture, but the majority of Israelis are not by religious practice.

10/7/2010 12:28:40 AM

disco_stu
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Quote :
"Jews by heritage and culture"


I'm interested more by what this even means. Where's the line between Jewish "culture" in Israel and Judaism? Is Jewish culture not derived almost entirely from Judaism as it's been practiced for 2500 years in the area? Can you give an example of something that is authentically "Jewish" but not tied to Judaism? (and I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly interested in learning more about this)

10/7/2010 8:48:19 AM

McDanger
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Quote :
"Can you give an example of something that is authentically "Jewish" but not tied to Judaism?"


Extreme emphasis on lifelong education is an Ashkenazi cultural trait at least

There's a disproportionate number of Jews doing extremely important work in logic and mathematics

At this point in time there are plenty of Israeli cultural traits that don't stem from Judaism at all, born in a mostly secular environment in places like Tel Aviv.

[Edited on October 7, 2010 at 10:56 AM. Reason : .]

10/7/2010 10:53:49 AM

lazarus
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Quote :
"Can you give an example of something that is authentically "Jewish" but not tied to Judaism?"


Bagels?

When you're done chewing on that, look up Baruch Spinoza and the long tradition of Jewish secularism.

[Edited on October 7, 2010 at 12:23 PM. Reason : ]

10/7/2010 12:21:32 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"Can you give an example of something that is authentically "Jewish" but not tied to Judaism?"


There's a reason why its called being Jew-ish.


So far in this thread it seems like McDanger and myself are the only ones with personal ties to Israel, and although we're making opposing arguments at times, we're both telling you that secularism rules the country.

And +1 on bagels. I'm enjoying one right now.

[Edited on October 7, 2010 at 2:40 PM. Reason : -]

10/7/2010 2:37:48 PM

disco_stu
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Citation on the bagels? What I'm reading is that they were created as an alternative to a bread that was eaten during Christian Lent in Poland, but were then adopted by Jewish communities because of their ease to create immediately following the Sabbath compared to other breads. Their adoption into "Jewishness" is directly tied to Judaism.

This is an example of what I'm talking about when I'm saying it's difficult to disambiguate the Judaism from the Jewishness.

But whatever, I'm convinced that secular Jewishness exists and is quite popular in Israel and abroad.

10/7/2010 3:20:46 PM

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