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Geppetto
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One thing that does make me happy is that a larger percentage of our generation is more comfortable questioning Israel and their actions. Although its still a far smaller percentage than it should be, given their consistently reprehensible behavior, I hope it leads to us no longer supporting that government as a whole.

Without our support, they would have had to answer to the international community years ago.

2/7/2012 9:59:52 AM

JesusHChrist
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my suspicion is that ^ that's why they're trying to speed up the process of annexing land now, while there is still popular US support for their actions, because they know that mass extermination of palestinians is viewed as "not cool" by younger generations and people with a pulse.



Quote :
"
Use of violence as a means of spreading fear for political purposes...terrorist.
"


This definition could easily be used to describe the IDF. C'mon man, listen to yourself. You're trying to justify Israel's use of white phosphorous onto SCHOOLS and HOSPITALS.

[Edited on February 7, 2012 at 11:29 AM. Reason : ]

2/7/2012 11:26:30 AM

JesusHChrist
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C'mon dude.

2/7/2012 12:01:26 PM

Str8Foolish
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Quote :
"They attack Israel...anti-Israel

Engaged in warfare....militant.

Use of violence as a means of spreading fear for political purposes...terrorist.

I'm sorry my terminology leaves room for misunderstood connotations."


So would that make the IDF anti-Palestine militant terrorists? I think so, except by your definitions they're about 40x as militant and terrorist.

[Edited on February 7, 2012 at 1:07 PM. Reason : .]

2/7/2012 1:06:22 PM

bdmazur
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^I'm not denying that.

There's a perception in this thread that I am ok with everything Israel has done and that I'm in full support of the Israeli government no matter what they do. But this is not true.

I have stated many times that all killing needs to stop now, that Israel should withdraw to the 1967 borders, that Gaza and the West Bank should EACH become independent nations of each other (because the past few years have already shown that they can't handle working together), and that Jerusalem should become an international city governed by the UN.

But when rockets are being launched from a hospital roof into homes on the other side, what is Israel supposed to do? Just let it happen and let their own people die? No I'm not ok with a hospital being crushed, but what would you do about it?

2/7/2012 4:32:22 PM

Geppetto
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I can respect that.

2/7/2012 8:13:22 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"But when rockets are being launched from a hospital roof into homes on the other side, what is Israel supposed to do? Just let it happen and let their own people die? No I'm not ok with a hospital being crushed, but what would you do about it?"


You don't drop the Hammer of Thor on a densely crowded city (unless your ultimate goal is to annex the land). In my mind, the excuse of "Israel is just defending itself" loses a lot of validity when you consider their overall goal and the grossly disproportionate use of force:

2/7/2012 9:14:12 PM

bdmazur
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What would you do to stop the missiles from coming? Just because the death toll isn't comparable doesn't mean the damage isn't being done.





(Sorry I don't know how to re-size images)


[Edited on February 7, 2012 at 10:51 PM. Reason : -]


[Edited on February 9, 2012 at 8:34 AM. Reason : .]

2/7/2012 10:43:44 PM

moron
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Assuming this graph is real, this is staggering.

What does it say about a militia group if they are dying by the thousands whilst killing so very few in their retaliations? Clearly you aren't going to bomb them into submission, and clearly killing them doesn't change their behavior.

The other explanation is that the terrorist here are completely disconnected from their civilian population, and the final explanation is that the civilian population is complicit with a long, drawn-out suicide campaign.

It seems that the side losing the fewest people in this type of war actually has the most incentive to maintain the fighting. They have gained territory, while continuing to decimate their enemy, and still can rationalize it as self defense.

If the situation is such that the Palestinian civilian population is complicit with the attacks, then Israel, despite the disparity in deaths, has no choice.

If the situation is that the Palestinian terrorists are disconnected from the civilian population, then Israel must find another solution other than a slow scorched earth.

2/7/2012 11:18:01 PM

JesusHChrist
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^^that second pic is in Gaza and is much worse (just look at the scale of the people -- it actually
demonstrates how one-sided the conflict is quite well)

I'm not condoning Hamas, but Israel gets international criticism because they mete out collective punishment that is magnitudes worse than what they are receiving.
There is no denying how far from even-handed Israel is being.

But let's give up the farce of calling it "defense." It's not, it's a land grab, and there are a vast
majority of Palestinians who are refugees because of the offensive that Israel is on. Israel has no
intention of recognizing international boundaries, and they say as much in public when Netanyahu
declares the borders as non-defensible. That only leads to one conclusion: They are going to take
more land and displace more natives.

Are they going to retreat to the 67 borders? Of course not, which is why the wall was built beyond
the borders that they are now going to declare as a part of Israel
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-president-abbas-says-israel-spoiled-latest-round-of-talks-on-border-security/2012/01/29/gIQAXscHZQ_story.html)

Is Jerusalem going to be an "international city?" Not when Benjamin Netanyahu walks in front of his
cronies in congress and declares it their capital and declares Israel a Jewish State while making a
bullshit appeal to 4000 years of history (and conveniently ignoring the more recent history of
Palestinian occupation). If they really gave a shit about peace, they'd be talking about secularism
and integration, not religious "history" that gives him an excuse to own the West Bank (or Judeo and Sumara)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z496zRMxxu8&feature=related)

And goddamn, look at the applause he gets. He has more influence over our congress than the President does.

Israel has a right to exist, yes. But they don't have a right to expand.

Is Israel going to stop the settlements? Fuckin doesn't seem likely. So how the fuck do you expect
the Palestinians to respond? What about this protest? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld3RdZVvpfg)
This is like condemning a rape victim from scratching her attacker.

Are you Israeli? I'm not really familiar with your position on the subject. But it seems like you are
going out of your way to contort the reality to appease your sensibilities without having to be
critical of Israel.



Quote :
"If the situation is such that the Palestinian civilian population is complicit with the attacks,
then Israel, despite the disparity in deaths, has no choice."


The Gaza Strip has a population of 1.6 million people. That's 4 times the size of Raleigh. No, they're not all complicit.
Unless, of course, your idea of complicit is that they voted for Hamas (in which case, everyone in this
thread is complicit for the crimes of our leadership).




[Edited on February 7, 2012 at 11:46 PM. Reason : big-ass picture]

2/7/2012 11:27:21 PM

moron
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^ if thousands of people are dying to kill 10 or 20 people, the general population has the power to stop this.

I don't mean by "not voting for Hamas" i mean by collectively going "wtf?!?!?" with the people causing this.

Clearly the attacks aren't working, they need to try another strategy.

2/7/2012 11:54:20 PM

JesusHChrist
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clearly, politely asking their neighbors to stop invading them isn't working either.

so what other choices are they left with?

I'm sure they're aware of how futile their resistance is....but it's not like it's going to matter one way
or the other. you can't expect people who have lost the will to live to strategically consider their options.

[Edited on February 8, 2012 at 12:00 AM. Reason : ]

2/7/2012 11:55:25 PM

Str8Foolish
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Hamas is the only force actually fighting for them at all. It's the same thing that happens with Al Qaeda and the Taliban. When people are getting the shit kicked out of them and having their land occupied, and "terrorist" groups are the only forces actually fighting on their behalf, they tend to support the terrorist groups. The alternative is complete surrender.

I mean really. Let's say Hamas stops rocket attacks. Hell let's say the Palestinian votes out Hamas altogether. Do you think Israel would stop the settlements and persecution, given their history and stated goal of driving the Palestinians out altogether?

No, of course not, all it would do is rip out one of the last stopgaps between the Palestinians and total erasure of their presence in their own homeland.

Quote :
"that Gaza and the West Bank should EACH become independent nations of each other (because the past few years have already shown that they can't handle working together)"


They can't "handle" working together under the conditions Israel imposes on them, whether it be rockets, geographical division, settlements, or the undermining of their processes at every turn.

How about we give Palestine statehood, then if they want to split up they can do it themselves.


[Edited on February 8, 2012 at 2:10 PM. Reason : .]

2/8/2012 2:08:26 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"Do you think Israel would stop the settlements and persecution, given their history and stated goal of driving the Palestinians out altogether?"


Stated by whom?

The Hamas Charter clearly states a mission to obliterate Israel. I'm sure many individual Israelis holding 60 year old grudges want all Palestinians gone from the territories and assimilated into the rest of the Arab world (which btw no Arab country would take them either), but it is no longer the mindset for the majority of Israelis that Palestinians are bad and need to be done away with.

2/8/2012 3:25:48 PM

JesusHChrist
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by whom? How about by your own Prime Minister?

Quote :
"I recognize that in a genuine peace we’ll be required to give up parts of the ancestral homeland.
And you have to understand this, in Judea and Samaria, the Jewish people are not foreign occupiers."


Benjamin Netanyahu


Quote :
"Jerusalem must never again be divided. Jerusalem must remain the united capital of Israel."


Benjamin Netanyahu


Quote :
"Israel will not return to the indefensible boundaries of 1967."


Benjamin Netanyahu


Quote :
"It’s vital that Israel maintain a long-term military presence along the Jordan River."


Benjamin Netanyahu



The Israeli leadership has NO INTENTION of stopping the occupation or expansion. They say as much.
So what do you suggest the Palestinians do? Sit back and take it? That seems to be your reasoning.
And it seems to be the reasoning of the Israeli government, too.

So really, it's unfair for you to criticize Hamas and then defend Israel's actions based on the notion that
most Israeli's don't support expansion. Maybe they don't, but their Government sure as hell does.
Hamas might clearly state they want to obliterate Israel (they never will given the lack of a military)
But Israel clearly IS destroying the West Bank and Gaza. And they're doing it with impunity.

Even if you're going to frame the argument as one goverment vs. another, it's impossible to deny the
imbalance of force being imposed on the Palestinians.




[Edited on February 8, 2012 at 3:50 PM. Reason : ]

2/8/2012 3:43:29 PM

aaronburro
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thx for jacking up the page with large pictures, buttmustard

2/8/2012 3:51:17 PM

Str8Foolish
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"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle."

Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.



"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed."

Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969


"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

David Ben Gurion


"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves."

Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.


"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."

Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.



"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, what is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'"

Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs,
published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

2/8/2012 4:24:24 PM

0EPII1
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David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 - 1963


Quote :
""We must expel Arabs and take their places.""
Quote :
""There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?""
Quote :
""Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.""
Quote :
""Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.""
Quote :
""If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.""




Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974


Quote :
""There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist.""
Quote :
""How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.""
Quote :
""This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.""




Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995


Quote :
""We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!""
Quote :
""[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.""





Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 - 1992


Quote :
""The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple.""
Quote :
""(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988"





Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999


Quote :
""Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989."





Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001


Quote :
""I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian."





Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - 2006


Quote :
""It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998."
Quote :
""Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998."
Quote :
""Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.""

2/8/2012 8:46:28 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"many individual Israelis holding 60 year old grudges"


Yeah I get it. Those are INDIVIDUALS, albeit ones in high political positions. I realize those answers above are valid when I asked "whom," but that's not comparable to a founding charter.

I'm not oblivious to the hate that has been passed down to the generations, but Hamas AS A WHOLE stands for the destruction and obliteration of Israel.

And look at the people who you're quoting:
Ben Gurion: born 1886
Meir: born 1898
Shamir: born 1915
Rabin: born 1922 (who became incredibly pro-peace/2 state solution in his later years)
Sharon: born 1928
Eitan: born 1929
Barak: born 1942
Netenyahu: Born 1949

Their generation will be gone soon, and soon a voice of progressiveness and pro-peace will replace them.


Quote :
"Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 - 2001

Quote :
""I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.""


I searched for the source of this quote and all I could find is this exactly how it is written (the explanation of where it came from written the same way every single time). But I cannot find the Levy article ANYWHERE. So lots just keeps copying the same exact line and posting it over and over. I can't even find a date for it.

At first glance of this quote I don't see it as anti-Palestinian...it sounds like he's saying that because of the situation in which Palestinians are raised, it becomes their reality...which sounds like an admittance of the condition of life. It's like saying "If I was born in Compton, there's a good chance I would have joined a gang" because that's what happens there.

That could be completely wrong, and he may have meant it as all Palestinians are terrorists, but I can't find the article to know one way or the other.


EDIT: Just found this, a different interview where he was directly asked about the quote:

Quote :
"ZAHN: I wanted to share with our audience something you said back in March of 1998, and I quote, you said: "If I were a young Palestinian, it is possible I would join a terrorist organization." Until the settlement issue is resolved, you do understand the mind set then you're saying of these Palestinian terrorists?

BARAK: No, I just made this remark in kind of relation to the way that the circumstances under which a human being is born influences its frame of mind."


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0306/25/se.13.html

[Edited on February 9, 2012 at 1:08 AM. Reason : -]

2/9/2012 1:02:47 AM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"Yeah I get it. Those are INDIVIDUALS, albeit ones in high political positions. I realize those answers above are valid when I asked "whom," but that's not comparable to a founding charter."


Dude.... So high officials with tremendous political influence can say the most damning things in the world....but so long as they don't write it down, it's all good?

Is that what you're getting at? Is this your logic? Israeli political leaders can say and commit atrocities with impunity, and you declare it as just a "grudge". But Hamas is evil because they.......wrote their intentions down on a piece of paper?

Is that really the defense your going with? Conquering your neighbors and exiling them from their land is okay, so long as you don't admit to it on paper?




And this:
Quote :
"
And look at the people who you're quoting:"


Are you oblivious to the pattern here? That almost all of the prime ministers have communicated the same message.

Do you really think that a new "progressive" voice is going to emerge and break that pattern? Do you really think that a new "progressive" voice is going to take control of the political atmosphere ever? Let alone in enough time to stop the encroachment of Palestinian land? It's never going to happen. They are going to conquer the entire area, and the world is going to watch and not do anything because they have the support of the USA and the reluctant support of people who keep pointing to the Hamas charter as some bullshit excuse to continue the plans they had all along.


I feel bad for the Palestinians. Because if Israel drags us into a war with Iran during our presidential elections, you can guarantee that Israel will use that opportunity to speed up their imperial conquest of Palestine before this mythical "progressive" voice rises to power within the Israeli and American political ranks.

[Edited on February 9, 2012 at 1:38 AM. Reason : ]

2/9/2012 1:30:42 AM

bdmazur
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And how about taking a look at Israeli leaders who want a peaceful resolution? Best example is former PM and current President Shimon Perez. He used to be just as hard core as some of those quotes from Ben Gurion and Netenyahu so you can easily find older quotes from him being anti-Palestine, but here are his words of the past decade:

Quote :
"There is no sense whatsoever to remain here. The settlements must be evacuated."


Quote :
"With the religious you can hardly negotiate. They think they have supreme permission to kill people and go to war."

(referring to extremists on both sides of the conflict)

Quote :
"Another Palestinian official called the cease-fire declaration a trick...I invite the Palestinians to use the same trick."


Quote :
"The occupation of the Gaza Strip was an historic mistake"


Quote :
"Unless there will be an end to the rifles and the shooting, I'll be very pessimistic about the future"


Quote :
"“This is the first time in the annals of Palestine that they will be completely in charge of their land. We wish them luck. Their betterment is in our interest. Their joy is not my pain."


Quote :
"It is better talking than shooting"


This is my favorite:
Quote :
"In the new age we must be open, competitive, transparent, keep your decency, ... The Jewish people were not born to occupy the land of other people, it goes against everything we stand for."



There are plenty more but you get the point.


JesusHChrist, it sounds like you have very little understanding of the current culture of Israeli peace movements. You distinguish between Palestinian extremists and the average innocent Palestinian people, but you keep speaking of Israel as if every citizen has the same mindset. My argument above is that there is a difference between opinion and doctrine. The US president can have a variety of opinions on different matters, but if the Constitution doesn't state it, then it is not the American way. As generations come and go, what is acceptable changes and new and better ways of doing things will replace the old and outdated. The previous generation was born into hate, this one was born into war, and don't try to take away my right to be optimistic that the next one will be born into peace.

[Edited on February 9, 2012 at 1:50 AM. Reason : -]

2/9/2012 1:37:53 AM

JesusHChrist
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Words mean nothing when the actions of the Israeli government continues the same trend of occupying and expanding. I can tell my wife I love her, but if I don't stop beating her, it doesn't make it true.


Look, I don't know who you are or what your relation is to this whole ordeal. I'm guessing, for you, its personal. But from an outside observer, it is almost impossible to see Israel as anything other than an imperialist nation that talks about peace while continuing to expand. And the mere act of expanding and continuing to occupy and build belies the words of peace that they talk about.

Quote :
"You distinguish between Palestinian extremists and the average innocent Palestinian people, but you keep speaking of Israel as if every citizen has the same mindset. My argument above is that there is a difference between opinion and doctrine. The US president can have a variety of opinions on different matters, but if the Constitution doesn't state it, then it is not the American way"


I'm aware of the peace movement. But I'm also aware of how ineffective it is. As for your appeal to the constitution? HA. The constitution doesn't give president Obama the authority to drop drones onto American citizens abroad, but that ain't fuckin' stoppin him. And you know what? I'm against that, too. But I also understand that when Obama talks about restoring the rule of law and protecting the constitution, that he's lying out of his goddamn Hawaiian mouf, because his actions are in direct conflict with the words he uses. I judge him by what he does, not what he says. I don't bother with the American way, because I'm more concerned with the American reality. I suggest you do the same with the leaders of Israel.



[Edited on February 9, 2012 at 2:02 AM. Reason : ]

2/9/2012 1:40:45 AM

bdmazur
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McDanger also used to post in this thread from a very personal standpoint (iirc his wife is Israeli and is very active in advocating for Palestinian statehood).

My personal connection to the conflict starts with my Jewish heritage and feeling of Israel as my historic homeland...not Israel as the political borders define it today and not entirely as a religious thing, but Jerusalem and Safed and other historic spots that represent the survival of the Jewish people throughout so much pain.

It then continues with my friendships with Israelis and a love of modern Israeli culture (food, music, art, technology, etc) which then led to losing friends to this conflict.

Being pro-Israel does not have to mean anti-Palestine. If you want to know more about where I'm coming from, here's an organization that mostly (but not necessarily always) fits my views: http://jstreet.org/

2/9/2012 2:09:13 AM

Str8Foolish
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Nobody gives a shit what you "feel" is your historic homeland. I don't have a right to a plot in the Irish highlands because of my blood. You having a religion with a history doesn't entitle you the individual or any other modern descendents to jack shit.


Quote :
"Being pro-Israel does not have to mean anti-Palestine. "


Israel itself is anti-Palestine in existing. This is like saying "Being pro-Colonists does not have to mean anti-Native American" in the 1700's.

If you're not, at the very very least actively criticizing the Israeli government, and particularly the settlers and supporters of the settlers, you are anti-Palestine. Wrapping that in some warm, hippy dippy "peace" movement is propaganda, little more. Occupation and settlement is an act of war.



[Edited on February 9, 2012 at 11:42 AM. Reason : .]

2/9/2012 11:37:30 AM

MattJMM2
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Quote :
"Nobody gives a shit what you "feel" is your historic homeland. I don't have a right to a plot in the Irish highlands because of my blood. You having a religion with a history doesn't entitle you the individual or any other modern descendents to jack shit."


We finally agree on something

2/9/2012 12:00:49 PM

aaronburro
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Quote :
"Israel itself is anti-Palestine in existing."

so, is your solution to get rid of Israel in order to be pro-Palestine?

2/9/2012 1:03:18 PM

Str8Foolish
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It might be that simple 30 years ago, but now Israel is full of many people who had no part in the original occupation and settlement, so kicking them all out is a tenuous position. At the end of the day I'd be cool with a return to the 67 borders. In an ideal world we'd give the Israelis a big chunk of Utah to live in and the Palestinians could return to the place that was their homeland mere decades ago.


[Edited on February 9, 2012 at 2:06 PM. Reason : .]

2/9/2012 2:05:14 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"Nobody gives a shit what you "feel" is your historic homeland. I don't have a right to a plot in the Irish highlands because of my blood. You having a religion with a history doesn't entitle you the individual or any other modern descendents to jack shit."


I never said I thought it was a reason to claim political borders there, I just said it was my personal connection to the situation. If I thought it meant I should own a piece of it then I'd pack up and move there, but I have no plans of ever doing so. I keep being accused of believing things that I don't.

Quote :
"Israel itself is anti-Palestine in existing."


That is a very close-minded viewpoint. There are several Israeli cities that were mostly uninhabitable until the first migration of European Jews in the 1880s-1890s when Europeans brought new systems of farming and irrigation into the desert. To say their existence in anyway hurts the Palestinian people is wrong.

Quote :
"If you're not, at the very very least actively criticizing the Israeli government, and particularly the settlers and supporters of the settlers, you are anti-Palestine. Wrapping that in some warm, hippy dippy "peace" movement is propaganda, little more. Occupation and settlement is an act of war."


I hate the current government, and I've made that clear. I've said multiple times I want the settlers to leave the territories, return to the old borders, and stop killing each other.

2/9/2012 6:38:12 PM

Str8Foolish
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Quote :
"That is a very close-minded viewpoint. There are several Israeli cities that were mostly uninhabitable until the first migration of European Jews in the 1880s-1890s when Europeans brought new systems of farming and irrigation into the desert."


Something tells me they'd much rather have kept the land and developed it at their own pace. Jews aren't uniquely capable of farming and irrigation. These things can be taught to anyone without invasive immigration.

Quote :
" To say their existence in anyway hurts the Palestinian people is wrong."


Except more than half of their former land is no inaccessible to them, and those cities empower the settlers who are encroaching further. This is like saying Native Americans weren't hurt by being rounded up into reservations, because they weren't farming the land to the full potential anyway!

Quote :
"I hate the current government, and I've made that clear. I've said multiple times I want the settlers to leave the territories, return to the old borders, and stop killing each other."


Current government? When has the Israeli government *not* done all these things you want them to stop?

2/10/2012 2:01:36 PM

McDanger
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Bump because I don't want to see bdmazur slink away from this thread like the corrupt Israeli politicians, warlords, and terrorists that he, ultimately, supports.

[Edited on February 15, 2012 at 8:05 AM. Reason : .]

2/15/2012 8:04:10 AM

bdmazur
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I'm not slinking away from anything, I've been posting here quite consistently.

And when did I support the anti-humanistic actions of the Israeli government? I've been in full support of peace movements and evacuating the territories.

I'm an American patriot while still being very critical of the government's actions. So why can't I equally love Israel as a place and not be accused of supporting a terrible government?

2/15/2012 3:08:29 PM

McDanger
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Typical limp-wristed liberal horseshit. Yeah yeah, your "peace organization" with all of its patent horse crap, doing literally nothing for the Palestinian people and, in every and all effects, allowing the Israeli government to steamroll right along.

2/16/2012 6:20:48 PM

McDanger
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Seriously the weak-piss in that "JStreet" policy sheet could have been written shorter as "do nothing"

[Edited on February 16, 2012 at 6:24 PM. Reason : .]

2/16/2012 6:24:40 PM

BobbyDigital
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Israel is planning to demolish 'illegal' solar panels that are the only source of electricity for Palestinians in West Bank villages

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2012/mar/14/palestinians-prepare-to-lose-solar-panels

3/14/2012 10:07:07 AM

disco_stu
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Shit fuck jesus.

3/14/2012 10:12:50 AM

McDanger
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzhD32yqg18&feature=share

3/14/2012 10:16:44 AM

JesusHChrist
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^^^

Quote :
"Israeli air attacks on Gaza killed seven more people on Monday, taking the death toll to 25 in hostilities that erupted on Friday, Palestinian medical sources said.

Israel has said it is hitting back at scores of rocket attacks, with more than 40 fired on Monday alone. However, the violence started with Israeli assassinations of Islamic Jihad members.

Eighteen of the Palestinians killed since Friday were identified by medical officials as fighters and five as civilians.

At least 74 Palestinians, mostly civilians, and three Israelis have been wounded.

Islamic Jihad said two of the dead were members of its military wing, the al-Quds Brigades.

Medics also reported six air raids in the early hours of Monday that injured 35 people, and another two raids around the city of Khan Younis, which left two dead and two others wounded.

Medics said another strike killed a 15-year-old boy and injured six other students near a school in northern Gaza.

"Sometimes there is collateral damage, and of course Israel is sorry about that," Efraim Inbar, a defence analyst, said.
"


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/03/201231215055832181.html

Israel up to its old tricks and blasting rockets into Gaza as "retaliation" while the world US tries to figure out what to do about Iraq Iran.

[Edited on March 14, 2012 at 1:49 PM. Reason : ]

3/14/2012 1:47:57 PM

pack_bryan
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that solar panel demolition is some shit. wtf mang


btw i scanned all the area around Imneizil and didn't find any solar panels (or any black square structures like in the image or the 6 others reported.)

panels were built in 2009. according to EU reports. the google image date is unknown as far as i can tell.

i'll report back if i find anything

[Edited on March 14, 2012 at 10:21 PM. Reason : k]

3/14/2012 10:17:46 PM

0EPII1
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Treacherous snakes acting even more treacherously... what's new?

Israel tries to save West Bank settlements it vowed to dismantle
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-settlements-20120411,0,6734196.story

Quote :
"JERUSALEM —Israel's government is scrambling to find ways to save some of the unauthorized West Bank settlements it once promised to dismantle, including some that are built partly on private Palestinian land[/b[.

The new strategy seeks to retroactively legalize some outposts and, in other cases, relocate Jewish settlers to nearby land that is not privately owned, in effect creating what critics say would be the first new West Bank settlements in years."


I swear, all Israeli leaders need to be slaughtered.

Ironic thing is, in America if someone enters your private property, everybody would agree with using force to remove the tresspassers, and many people would also agree with using deadly force if need be. But, if I say what I have said below, then I am an anti-semite.

So, I would propose that settlers who have built outposts on [b]private Palestinian land, they should all be slaughtered. All the adults should be killed, and children given to proper moral non-usurping non-thieving human beings to raise, so that they don't turn out to be like their parents, religious robbers.

Quote :
"Most are small communities of ideological religious families who put up temporary housing without the permission of the Defense Ministry."


Yup, those "ideological religious families", KILL them all (except for the children, as noted).

4/11/2012 5:13:43 AM

BobbyDigital
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http://972mag.com/armed-border-officer-chases-10-year-old-palestinian-boy-for-holding-flag/46412/





Quote :
"200 comments, most calling for IDF soldiers to kill children. Congratulations, you’re a light unto the nations."



ahh.. jews. So glad our tax dollars are being used to prop up this fucking country.

6/27/2012 10:58:56 PM

GeniuSxBoY
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Quote :
"So glad our tax dollars are being used to prop up this fucking country."



Israel's government's mentality and America's government's mentality come from the same brains.

Israeli's government is created, owned, ran, and financed by Americans.

Just like in America, true Israeli citizen just want peace; the government wants war. The government no longer represents the people of Israel.

6/28/2012 12:20:16 AM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"Just like in America, true Israeli citizen just want peace; the government wants war. The government no longer represents the people of Israel."


This.

Quote :
"ahh.. jews"


ummmm....what?

6/30/2012 3:33:43 PM

BobbyDigital
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41773 Posts
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yeah these guys.

7/17/2012 10:21:06 AM

y0willy0
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whats the story behind that picture again? ive seen it before a long time ago and have forgotten the context.

i do recall it being fairly disgusting, whatever it was.

7/17/2012 10:29:12 AM

BobbyDigital
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"FACING A CROWD: A Palestinian woman whose house has been occupied by Jewish settlers argued with Israelis who came to celebrate Jerusalem Day in the mainly Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, East Jerusalem, Wednesday. (Ahmad Gharabli/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images)"

http://blogs.wsj.com/photojournal/2010/05/14/pictures-of-the-week-may-9-%E2%80%93-may-14/

7/17/2012 10:31:31 AM

Str8Foolish
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Hate to play the Hitler card but Zionists are to Jews what Nazis are to Aryans...

7/17/2012 3:25:19 PM

d357r0y3r
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Population of Jewish settlements in West Bank up 15,000 in a year

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/26/jewish-population-west-bank-up

Fuck the Palestinians...because holocaust.

7/27/2012 9:56:40 AM

d357r0y3r
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Drudge headline: "AHMADINEJAD: ANNIHILATE ISRAEL..."

Links to http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/News/Article.aspx?id=279864 (Jerusalem post)

Not surprisingly, nowhere in the article does he talk about "Annihilating Israel". Closest is this:

"He added: "Anyone who loves freedom and justice must strive for the annihilation of the Zionist regime in order to pave the way for world justice and freedom.” "

Fuck Zionism.

8/2/2012 2:27:27 PM

Charybdisjim
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Every time I read about the issues of Israel and Palestine I can't help but be filled with blinding impotent rage at it all. The forces at work which seem to get their way more often than not are those whose actions ultimately push towards the same ethnic cleansing as the foreseeable outcome. Those who seek peaceful coexistence and actually take steps or make gestures towards it are derailed in their efforts by those on each side who use force and violence to further erode any possibility of reconciliation (sometimes under the auspices of the state and sometimes independently.)

The damnably frustrating thing is that I can understand the attitudes and sentiments of the Israeli and Palestinian people which allow these sometimes evil and sometimes simply misguided elements of their societies to have their ways. Every time Israel has made gestures of peace in the past - be they genuine or hollow - they see violent elements on the Palestinian side continue their attacks. It is not unimaginable that were I in their shoes I would see the Palestinian authority as unable or unwilling to make sufficient effort to stop the violence. I would also probably know someone who had been hurt or killed or at least have seen the damage done by bomb blasts or rockets close to my own home. I might even come to believe that the ultimate goal of any Palestinian authority would always be my eventual death or expulsion in spite of whatever they might officially say.

Every time the Palestinian authority has made similar gestures towards Israel the Palestinian people see the illegal Jewish settlements continue to expand and perceive the Israel gestures of cooperation as disingenuous. They see their economy stifled and their livelihoods threatened even in times of relative peace. I can imagine that were I in their shoes I could come to see attempts at peaceful coexistence and even detente as futile and ultimately suicidal. I would come to see the Israeli electorate as politically unable or simply unwilling to stop what I would feel was the slow and inexorable expulsion or killing of my people. I might knowledge Hamas's agenda and tactics as futile but I might not be willing or able to acknowledge that they were worse than futile and actually pushing things towards the outcome I fear most. I would likely know friends and perhaps even family killed in the conflict and my anger of this could reasonably be imagined to cause me to see those working towards a peaceful outcome as collaborators rather than my people's only realistic hope.

From the outside it seems obvious that the biggest and most immediate enemies of good people on each side of the conflict are often either in charge of their own governments or getting their way none the less. There are good individuals of each society for whom circumstance, politics, and propaganda conspire to make genocide, murder, or suicide seem like the best of all available inevitable outcomes. The worst thing about it all is that I realize that were I in their shoes I would quite likely not listen to reason either. The only reason that there is no alternative to conflict besides surrender is because too many people can see no alternative.

8/2/2012 9:37:09 PM

BobbyDigital
HomieDOESplayDat
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Israel Police: Hundreds watched attempt to lynch Palestinians in Jerusalem, did not interfere

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-police-hundreds-watched-attempt-to-lynch-palestinians-in-jerusalem-did-not-interfere.premium-1.459293

8/20/2012 11:21:43 AM

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