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 Message Boards » » Israel/Palestine Page 1 ... 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 ... 33, Prev Next  
Kris
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Quote :
"Given the history of Israel, it's tough to fault their leadership for being heavy-handed when it comes to defense of their country. "


They've been heavy handed since thier begining, when they bombed Egyptian air strips before the war began, even before Israel was around when they blew up an entire hotel in a terrorist act that killed almost 100 innocent people.

Quote :
"Aside from the fact that Israel doesn't speak for a whole religion, Israel has many Arabs and Druze in the Knesset. Describing Israel as "the Jews" is stupid."


I partially agree with that, but the extremely racist Law of Return would give me reason to disagree considering it gives citizenship to anyone with an ethnically Jewish mother.

11/16/2012 11:28:08 AM

Prawn Star
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Quote :
"Yeah, I mean Israels position is completely reasonable, because fuck you I'm going to settle your lands and build walls and fences in your country to extend my borders and fuck you if you get mad about it. Definitely understandable."


Well, I mean it's perfectly understandable that Israel goes overboard with their defense, given their history. It's stupid and it perpetuates the cycle of violence, but it's pretty obvious why they act the way they do. Just like how I understand why Hamas continues to target civilians, despite the fact that it results in a disproportionate response from the IDF.

You can't really expect 2 groups of people who hate each other to act rationally, especially when it comes to self-preservation.

[Edited on November 16, 2012 at 11:29 AM. Reason : 2]

11/16/2012 11:28:43 AM

Lumex
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Stop building settlements

Problem fucking solved

11/16/2012 11:46:48 AM

dtownral
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going back to the borders they agreed to would be a great first step

11/16/2012 11:55:01 AM

Prawn Star
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Quote :
"Stop building settlements

Problem fucking solved"


It woud be a good first step, but it would hardly solve the problem. They pulled out of Gaza and it just emboldened Hamas to step up attacks.

[Edited on November 16, 2012 at 12:15 PM. Reason : 2]

11/16/2012 12:14:27 PM

dtownral
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The VICE coverage of this will probably be pretty good
http://www.vice.com/read/we-just-spoke-to-people-in-israel-and-palestine-about-the-gaza-attacks?

11/16/2012 2:03:39 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"Stop building settlements

Problem fucking solved
"


They tried that. The bombs kept coming anyway. So since Hamas didn't keep their side of the deal, Israel kept building.

Quote :
"Maybe the jews should practice the same message of tolerance that they shove down the rest of the world's throat."


Diaspora Jews and Israelis are 2 completely different groups.

Quote :
"Do you really think that Israel takes into consideration the interests of any arabs or druze who happen to reside within its borders?"


They have an equal vote just like everyone else, hence a proportionate number of Arab members of the Israeli parliement. Their representation is more fair there than Latinos have it here. Until recently, Israel was the ONLY middle eastern country where an Arab woman had the right to vote.

Quote :
"They've been heavy handed since thier begining, when they bombed Egyptian air strips before the war began, even before Israel was around when they blew up an entire hotel in a terrorist act that killed almost 100 innocent people."


If you KNEW Mexico was about to bomb the hell out of USA, wouldn't you want Obama taking out their planes before they could? And the King David Hotel bombing was an attack on British headquarters by an underground group that was not supported by the masses. I guess it was also wrong of Colonial American militia to attack British posts as well?

11/16/2012 2:59:59 PM

pryderi
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11/16/2012 3:09:46 PM

ElGimpy
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has broken?

11/16/2012 3:12:29 PM

Kris
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Quote :
"If you KNEW Mexico was about to bomb the hell out of USA, wouldn't you want Obama taking out their planes before they could?"


What does that have to do with anything? First they are completely different, secondly, it was still heavyhanded anyways.

Quote :
"And the King David Hotel bombing was an attack on British headquarters by an underground group that was not supported by the masses."


Many Irgun members went on to be prominent Israeli politicians.

11/16/2012 3:39:49 PM

bdmazur
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I'm sorry if you don't understand the concept of a hypothetical situation. If your neighbor keeps hitting baseballs at your windows, then you go over there and break his bat.

And yeah, some former members of Irgun became politicians. But the group also disbanded after Israel had a government in place. PLO and Hamas, who have each been responsible for more death and destruction than Irgun ever was, became the most powerful Palestinian political voices through terrorism and fear tactics.

A few politicians does not begin to compare to entire governmental control.

11/16/2012 3:52:10 PM

Kris
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Quote :
"I'm sorry if you don't understand the concept of a hypothetical situation. If your neighbor keeps hitting baseballs at your windows, then you go over there and break his bat."


I'm sorry you created this red herring. What the US would or wouldn't do in some hypothetical situation is completely irrelevant to whether something is or isn't heavyhanded.
To use your example, going over to break his bat would be considered a heavy handed approach, a lighter handed approach would be asking him to stop. Now this is IRRELEVANT to whether or not breaking his bat is the right or wrong thing to do, how many baseballs he has hit through your window or what color his hat is, these are all irrelevant.
The fact is that Israel has always opted for the heavyhanded approach and violent approach. Palestinian groups are responsible for the same, but they don't have helicopters. Israel also knows better. They want to be viewed as a respectable modern country yet they commit inexcusable human rights violations. It's similar to when South Africa had apartheid, the rest of the world looked at them with disgust, the excuse "well they would discriminate against us" or "worse happens in other places in Africa" both didn't and SHOULD NOT fly.

Quote :
"But the group also disbanded after Israel had a government in place."


Obviously. Don't you think the PLO and Hamas would disband if they got everything they wanted?

11/16/2012 4:04:56 PM

bdmazur
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It's not about what the US would do, I'm trying to make a point that it's about what ANY country would do when it is known that a bordering nation is about to attack.

"Oh please, Egypt, we would really appreciate if you didn't drop bombs on us like we know you're planning to do. We won't mess with your planes if you promise you won't use them!" Would have worked like a charm.

If PLO and Hamas got everything they wanted, Israel would no longer exist and the Jewish people in the region would all be dead. It's written out clearly in their charters.

11/16/2012 4:13:07 PM

dtownral
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If we are using a US-Mexico hypothetical, how about we set that hypothetical somewhere around 1846 and see how its a terrible hypothetical

11/16/2012 4:17:48 PM

bdmazur
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I'm talking about Neighbor-Neighbor in the age of airborne warfare. Doesn't matter which countries the hypothetical is. I just tried putting it in terms of our own borders.

11/16/2012 4:20:45 PM

Bullet
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bdmazur is all: "The Palestinians are not the same thing as the rebel alliance!"... well, not really, but it's a neat song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGXapsAaAO4&playnext=1&list=PL5E95284089F06EC8&feature=results_main

11/16/2012 4:20:59 PM

dtownral
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well i mean, its a great hypothetical only not in the way you meant. Mexico-US is a great point to reference in this discussion.

It's also not surprising that it didn't occur to you in that way, because the only people who can support Israel are those who have no awareness of history.

11/16/2012 4:23:31 PM

JesusHChrist
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Bdmazur would have supported American manifest destiny by arguing that native Americans deserved being slaughtered for using bows and arrows against European gun powder.

Seriously, just replace the word "terrorist" with "savage" and reread his posts.

11/16/2012 4:43:57 PM

bdmazur
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I get what you're trying to say. Americans began settling in Texas while it was a disputed territory eventually leading to a war. Texas considered itself separate from Mexico but Mexico wouldn't recognize it's independence.

If nuclear weapons existed back then I would equate that more to India and Pakistan disputing Kashmir then the issue of Palestinian territory.

Most people in Israel and world-wide want a peaceful coexistence between Israel and a independent Palestinian state. However, it won't happen until both nations have a government the other can trust. It will never happen with Hamas in power, because they do not want a peaceful solution.

A month ago I was expecting the Israeli population to vote out Netenyahu's generation come January. But with the way things have escalated and the amount of fear being pushed through the country, I think it will be tough to do so now. This is George W Bush's "stay the course" with his war all over again.

11/16/2012 4:44:24 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
" A month ago I was expecting the Israeli population to vote out Netenyahu's generation come January. But with the way things have escalated and the amount of fear being pushed through the country, I think it will be tough to do so now. This is George W Bush's "stay the course" with his war all over again."



That's the whole point, dummy. Israel provoked Hamas for political gain so that they could continue conquering land.

[Edited on November 16, 2012 at 4:52 PM. Reason : phone post]

11/16/2012 4:51:46 PM

bdmazur
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^^I get what you're trying to say. Americans began settling in Texas while it was a disputed territory eventually leading to a war. Texas considered itself separate from Mexico but Mexico wouldn't recognize it's independence.

If nuclear weapons existed back then I would equate that more to India and Pakistan disputing Kashmir then the issue of Palestinian territory.

^I have at no point said that Israel should take Palestinian land. I have at no point said that Israel should wipe out the Palestinian people. And I have absolutely never said that the Palestinian citizens are terrorists. I'm talking specifically about those operating the rocket launchers.

Most people in Israel and world-wide want a peaceful coexistence between Israel and a independent Palestinian state. However, it won't happen until both nations have a government the other can trust. It will never happen with Hamas in power, because they do not want a peaceful solution.

A month ago I was expecting the Israeli population to vote out Netenyahu's generation come January. But with the way things have escalated and the amount of fear being pushed through the country, I think it will be tough to do so now. This is George W Bush's "stay the course" with his war all over again.

11/16/2012 4:54:52 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"^I have at no point said that Israel should take Palestinian land. I have at no point said that Israel should wipe out the Palestinian people. And I have absolutely never said that the Palestinian citizens are terrorists. I'm talking specifically about those operating the rocket launchers."


No, you haven't. You just continue to apologize and rationalize (poorly) the response.


You talk about peace and then casually accept the violence. Congrats, you're a coward.

11/16/2012 5:12:51 PM

mrfrog

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I found this interesting!

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000636

Notably, the Arab populations...
living in Israel main: about 1.5 M
West bank: about 2.3 M
Gaza strip: about 1.5 M

Question from mrfrog:

What's the deal with the large population living in Israel? I take it they're not the ones shooting rockets? With the demographic trends, it seems like eventually half of Israel itself could be Muslim. So isn't this all about a 2-state solution kind of silly? I mean, how are we talking about this Palestinian state when like 1/4th of the population we would be making the country for is already integrated into israeli society?

Is Gaza just more radical than the rest of them? Is Hamas like a phenomenon specific to Gaza?

11/16/2012 5:19:09 PM

bdmazur
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^^I've marched in peace rallies in Tel-Aviv while other Israelis threw glass at us.

What have you done for peace?

^Israel's population is becoming more and more Arab just like America is becoming more Latin (one ethnic group continuously moving in and having MANY more babies per family). Israel isn't anti-Arab or anti-Muslim, everyone has the same freedoms. Almost a better situation for Arab-Israelis because they aren't forced by law to join the army (although many do by choice, because they still consider it their home).

However there are still many socioeconomic issues, just like minority groups in America having lower income jobs.

[Edited on November 16, 2012 at 5:51 PM. Reason : -]

11/16/2012 5:46:22 PM

JesusHChrist
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Why would the Israeli government ever take your little peace march seriously when you always excuse their actions?

11/16/2012 6:11:43 PM

JesusHChrist
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When the shit gets hairy, you always fall in line, because you don't really stand for anything

11/16/2012 6:18:02 PM

dtownral
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We can go back to the US-Mexico analogy again for insight regarding this protest discussion (that really was a great analogy)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau)
"Even voting for the right is doing nothing for it. It is only expressing to men feebly your desire that it should prevail. A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men.”
"If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law"


history, you're so helpful

11/16/2012 7:02:01 PM

Prawn Star
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Shit's about to get real. Israel is mobilizing for an invasion of Gaza.

11/16/2012 10:58:01 PM

DaBird
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The TWW is nothing if not predictable.

11/17/2012 6:48:42 AM

pryderi
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http://tnw.co/QNi6DK

Quote :
"When the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) this week began taking military action in the Gaza strip against Hamas (as the IDF announced on Twitter), Anonymous declared its own war as part of #OpIsrael. Among the casualties are thousands of email addresses and passwords, hundreds of Israeli Web sites, government-owned as well as privately owned pages, as well as databases belonging to Bank Jerusalem and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs."


Quote :
"Anonymous@YourAnonNews
Israel, all your base are belong to us."


[Edited on November 17, 2012 at 10:24 AM. Reason : http://tnw.co/QNi6DK]

11/17/2012 10:15:18 AM

The E Man
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New Egypt is looking like a wildcard right now.

11/17/2012 10:19:07 AM

ScubaSteve
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Quote :
"But when the government of Israel publicly threatened to sever all Internet and other telecommunications into and out of Gaza they crossed a line in the sand. As the former dictator of Egypt Mubarack learned the hard way – we are ANONYMOUS and NO ONE shuts down the Internet on our watch."


from that article

11/17/2012 10:31:26 AM

Kris
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Quote :
"I'm trying to make a point that it's about what ANY country would do when it is known that a bordering nation is about to attack."


And I'm making the point that it doesn't matter what whichever country would do, it's a HEAVYHANDED approach.

Quote :
"If PLO and Hamas got everything they wanted, Israel would no longer exist and the Jewish people in the region would all be dead. It's written out clearly in their charters."


Again, irrelevant. My statement is true, if they got what they wanted (WHATEVER IT IS) they would disband and most likely begin to join the government, just like the members of Irgun did.

11/17/2012 11:22:05 AM

theDuke866
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But they can't get everything they want. It'll never happen. As fucked up as Israel is, they are willing to compromise and stand by their concessions, at least to a far greater extent.

11/17/2012 5:28:23 PM

dtownral
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They are willing to stand by their compromises? That's why they have never moved back to the borders they agreed to?

11/17/2012 5:29:14 PM

qntmfred
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Quote :
" at least to a far greater extent"

11/17/2012 7:25:16 PM

dtownral
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[Edited on November 17, 2012 at 7:44 PM. Reason : actually, forget it]

11/17/2012 7:27:36 PM

0EPII1
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without discussion, who [mostly] agrees, and who [mostly] disagrees with the text below:

11/18/2012 6:25:58 AM

pryderi
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11/18/2012 10:31:36 AM

The E Man
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Interestingly enough the settlers and land grabs are all taking place in the peaceful west bank. Gaza strip has had their same land since 49 and they are the violent ones. Some people say this is about religion but its not as Muslims live happily inside of Israel.

Many people say this is about land and it is but not the violence because the west bank has been relatively peaceful.

This is about poverty and the forced isolation Israel has inflicted on the gaza strip with the blockades. Israel is making them into the poorest place on earth and times are so desperate that attacks may seem like the only way out.

This is about freedom. The rest of the Palestinians aren't happy but they are letting Israel take their land, crush their religious rights and continue to settle without getting very violent about it.

Its pretty hard to fight if you are living a middle class lifestyle.

11/18/2012 11:52:09 AM

0EPII1
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/9682414/Its-got-to-do-with-Iran-Chief-Rabbi-Lord-Sacks-unguarded-comments-about-Gaza-conflict.html

Ha!

11/18/2012 11:59:32 AM

aaronburro
Sup, B
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Quote :
"Meanwhile, Israel discriminately orders airstrikes on Palestinians civilians populations."

umm... That's a prett hefty claim. Any evidence to back it up?

11/18/2012 3:47:40 PM

JesusHChrist
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^http://blogs.aljazeera.com/liveblog/topic/gaza-136

11/18/2012 4:27:35 PM

aaronburro
Sup, B
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nothing there says the Israelis are indiscriminately firing at civilian populations

11/18/2012 5:24:42 PM

dtownral
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What about the well documented use of using white phosphorus or cluster bombs in crowded civilian areas (which is illegal)?

11/18/2012 5:31:16 PM

aaronburro
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how about them? you seem to think that firing weapons at any nominally "civilian" structure which is filled with armed people shooting back at you is the same as firing from the hip into a crowded market. I'm not one to agree with such an assertion. If Hamas didn't hide in civilian buildings, then those buildings would not be targeted. The blood of the civilians is on Hamas' hands, not Israel's

11/18/2012 5:35:40 PM

0EPII1
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Wow, dangerous idiots... Didnt expect this of canada.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/07/20117206368409551.html

11/18/2012 5:50:25 PM

dtownral
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So war crimes don't apply in some situations?

11/18/2012 5:51:29 PM

JesusHChrist
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Quote :
"how about them? you seem to think that firing weapons at any nominally "civilian" structure which is filled with armed people shooting back at you is the same as firing from the hip into a crowded market. I'm not one to agree with such an assertion. If Hamas didn't hide in civilian buildings, then those buildings would not be targeted. The blood of the civilians is on Hamas' hands, not Israel's"


This is the dumbest thing I've read in a while.

There's something pretty perverted about firing into a building that you KNOW to be occupied by innocent civilians, including women and children.

Honestly, if this is the logic you're going with, then you might as well just drop a bomb on the entire city and wipe your hands clean of the whole ordeal.

11/18/2012 7:08:44 PM

GeniuSxBoY
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anyone post this yet?


Anonymous leaks personal information of 5,000 Israeli officials



The group used their Anonpaste.me site to address a message to the Israeli government before linking to the page with names, ID numbers and personal emails of 5,000 officials.


http://rt.com/news/anonymous-israel-officials-leaked-002/

11/18/2012 7:13:54 PM

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