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theDuke866
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Quote :
"even I personally have trouble understanding how Syria or Iraq are at all more important than the Ukraine situation."


because right or wrong, we don't want American forces directly killing Russian forces on what Russia views as Russian soil. That would be a big deal.


Quote :
"the military is just an arm of our diplomacy."


Ummm, duh.. Politics by other means, and all that. I'm not saying we're never altruistic or at least partly altruistic, but basically, we commit our military for the purpose of securing American interests. From the Barbary Pirates to Syria, that's the way it goes. Foreign aid is pretty much the same way. Sometimes we sell things to the public as a feel good story, but at the end of the day with the policy makers, realpolitik generally dominates.

12/27/2018 11:13:21 PM

Cherokee
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Quote :
"because right or wrong, we don't want American forces directly killing Russian forces on what Russia views as Russian soil. That would be a big deal."


Right I get it would be a big deal. It would also have been the correct response. So I still fail to see why going crazy in the desert is something we do. Unless the argument is we are engaging Russia in, for example, Syria. In which case I get it.

12/28/2018 10:37:21 AM

adultswim
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Quote :
"Politics by other means"


Politics by means of exploiting the global poor. The American Way.

Quote :
"Right I get it would be a big deal. It would also have been the correct response."


No it fucking wouldn't have you bloodthirsty psycho

12/28/2018 10:54:38 AM

dtownral
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are you one of those, "crimea is really all russians and they support russia there!" types?

12/28/2018 11:33:56 AM

adultswim
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No I just think annexation of Crimea does not justify World War 3.

12/28/2018 11:41:27 AM

Cherokee
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I guess you don't understand how these things work.

12/28/2018 12:13:15 PM

adultswim
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It's completely wild to me that someone is suggesting war with Russia in the year 2018. You're an insane neocon, worse than John Bolton.

[Edited on December 28, 2018 at 12:24 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2018 12:24:18 PM

dtownral
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pretending that a show of force would immediately escalate to WW3 is the result of intentional fearmongering that russia has been using for decades to get away with stuff like this
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/04/24/the-soviet-roots-of-invoking-fears-about-world-war-iii/

do you also not believe in NATO? I mean what even is the point of NATO if we can't ever standup to Russia because it would cause WW3? All Russia has to do is slowly annex neighboring countries in increments so no single action justifies WW3 and they can seemingly get away with anything by your logic.

[Edited on December 28, 2018 at 12:43 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2018 12:42:14 PM

adultswim
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lol it doesn't matter what i say because everything that isn't war with russia is russian propaganda. 2016 broke your brains.

let's ask crimeans if they would like the US to engage in combat with Russia outside of their homes. it always works out so well for occupied countries.

[Edited on December 28, 2018 at 12:52 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2018 12:51:19 PM

dtownral
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your position doesn't make sense, by your logic we can't ever stand up to russia

[Edited on December 28, 2018 at 1:03 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2018 12:58:39 PM

adultswim
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Russia annexing formerly Russian territories is not ideal, but also not grounds for a war that could result in tens of thousands to millions of deaths.

Even if they treated Crimeans like we treat Iraqis or Afghans, you still wouldn't have grounds for world war.

[Edited on December 28, 2018 at 1:06 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2018 1:04:21 PM

dtownral
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Quote :
"but also not grounds for a war that could result in tens of thousands to millions of deaths.
"

false dichotomy

12/28/2018 1:08:49 PM

adultswim
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It's a significant risk engaging in direct combat with Russia.

And again:

Quote :
"let's ask crimeans if they would like the US to engage in combat with Russia outside of their homes. it always works out so well for occupied countries."

12/28/2018 1:12:11 PM

dtownral
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explain how that statement doesn't preempt the US or NATO from responding to any russian aggression anywhere

russia isn't going to start ww3 because the us or nato puts assets and advisers in their path, they aren't going to start ww3 over targeted strikes, they aren't going to start ww3 over nato forces in the black sea, etc...

and in regards to what the people want, why does it not matter that georgia and ukraine were interested in joining nato and russia invaded georgia and undermined ukrainian politics and filled the military and government with pro-russian assets and started sending in little green men

12/28/2018 1:32:05 PM

Cherokee
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^all of this

And I'll also add one additional point - people on the left (and I'm not implying to what extent you are on the left or implying that you're far or extreme left) need to understand that cowering in the face of serious aggression invites a larger war with worse destruction in the future.

It sounds like your argument is that we need to wait until an adversary has taken out all of our allies before we're justified in engaging at which point it is literally too late.

I imagine we should stop fighting wild fires until they have consumed 90% of the US by that argument.

[Edited on December 28, 2018 at 1:51 PM. Reason : a]

12/28/2018 1:46:06 PM

adultswim
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Apart from military action against Russia being dumb as shit under any president, imagine believing the US military could ever be a force of good under Donald Trump, Mike Pompeo, and John Bolton.

Do you think Georgia and Ukraine would like the US to bomb their countries?

What Russia has done PALES in comparison to what the US has done in the middle east, Latin America, and previously, Asia. Someone should stop us.

[Edited on December 28, 2018 at 1:54 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2018 1:52:06 PM

dtownral
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are you getting paid per false dichotomy?

[Edited on December 28, 2018 at 2:00 PM. Reason : and a sprinkle of whataboutism ]

12/28/2018 2:00:03 PM

adultswim
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actually, denying American exceptionalism is whataboutism, which is a logical fallacy

12/28/2018 2:06:27 PM

dtownral
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lol, you just i'm rubber you're glue'd me



[Edited on December 28, 2018 at 2:08 PM. Reason : also a straw man because i've never denied american exceptionalism]

12/28/2018 2:07:50 PM

adultswim
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I’m just wondering if you believe Russia and China should also thwart our exploitation in the Middle East?

12/28/2018 2:14:35 PM

A Tanzarian
salad syrup
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adultswim is turning into a one man left-wing tea party

12/28/2018 2:15:39 PM

adultswim
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lol this is mainstream left wing thought anywhere other than the US

I’m not surprised to hear you say that, though, given that you recently commented you would join the military all over again if you had the option.

[Edited on December 28, 2018 at 2:21 PM. Reason : .]

12/28/2018 2:20:52 PM

A Tanzarian
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You're not anywhere other than the US. But, hey, if you want to keep throwing out litmus tests and declaring everyone failing your judgement to be right of John Bolton, go right ahead.

If I were 18 and it was the mid-90's, then yeah, I'd probably join again.

Besides, you're not really against military action. You'll still need meat for foreign adventures that meet your standards (whatever they are today).

12/28/2018 2:37:46 PM

adultswim
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the insane lefty litmus test of avoiding direct war with a world superpower

12/28/2018 2:48:15 PM

dtownral
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the moron test of thinking russia will start a world war for standing up to aggression in areas that are of marginal significance to them

12/28/2018 3:00:48 PM

moron
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/28/world/middleeast/syria-kurds-turkey-manbij.html

Apparently Kurds looking to strengthen ties to Assad

Kurds were the closest thing to the good guys in the region is my understanding.

Gonna be weird a few years from now we’re back in the region fighting on the same side as ISIS...

Also, seems like with every new incident the blunder of voiding the Iran nuclear agreement is made clear. It seems to me our best case scenario is a stronger Iran to keep Saudi Arabia’s ambitions in check and vice versus.

[Edited on December 29, 2018 at 12:16 AM. Reason : ]

12/29/2018 12:14:11 AM

theDuke866
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Quote :
"What Russia has done PALES in comparison to what the US has done in the middle east, Latin America, and previously, Asia. Someone should stop us."


You must be high.

Quote :
"russia isn't going to start ww3 because the us or nato puts assets and advisers in their path, they aren't going to start ww3 over targeted strikes, they aren't going to start ww3 over nato forces in the black sea, etc..."


Agreed. Hell they didn’t have anything to say when the Marines smoked a few hundred of their mercs in Syria.

Taking direct combat action against them in Ukraine after the closing of that preventative window you describe is a different thing, though.

Quote :
"Kurds were the closest thing to the good guys in the region is my understanding"


We totally sell them out about once per decade. Not good diplomacy for the long haul and big picture.[/quote]

Quote :
"
Also, seems like with every new incident the blunder of voiding the Iran nuclear agreement is made clear."


Yeah, that was kind of a shitty deal, but breaking it was absolutely imbecilic.

12/29/2018 2:17:31 AM

0EPII1
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What do you guys think about what he says:

https://nypost.com/2018/12/29/the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-reason-the-military-wants-to-stay-in-syria

I totally after with him.

12/29/2018 2:17:01 PM

dtownral
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since so many liberals are criticizing the idea of leaving Syria, can anyone describe an exit strategy that doesn't suck? or is the alternative for permanent presence there? or is it based on the hope that we will start supporting the kurds?

1/3/2019 2:16:00 PM

Bullet
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https://www.npr.org/2019/01/08/683177946/erdogan-cancels-meeting-with-bolton-as-u-s-seeks-to-reassure-allies-on-syria

1/8/2019 1:06:20 PM

adultswim
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https://theintercept.com/2019/01/11/as-democratic-elites-reunite-with-neocons-the-partys-voters-are-becoming-far-more-militaristic-and-pro-war-than-republicans/

Democrats are the pro-war party again, at least until Trump declares war on Venezuela or Iran.

1/14/2019 10:54:48 AM

marko
Tom Joad
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lol both parties are totally pro-war, especially if they ever get a chance to shoot at each other

1/14/2019 11:09:11 AM

Bullet
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-13/trump-says-turkey-to-be-devastated-economically-if-kurds-hit

1/14/2019 11:24:18 AM

NyM410
J-E-T-S
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^^^ looking for some quotes where some prominent Democrats have espoused and praised the views of David Frum and Bill Kristol. This doesn’t include a retweet of them criticism Trump over Russia. I’m talking real alignment of neoconservatism.

This is such a strawman and is COMPLETELY borne out of fucking MSNBC appearances.

1/14/2019 12:47:13 PM

dtownral
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one of the links in that article is about the CAP having a joint event with Kristol

1/14/2019 12:54:26 PM

adultswim
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^^
“Democratic policy elites”. Obviously an elected Democrat couldn’t openly work with Bill Kristol.

1/14/2019 1:10:57 PM

Shrike
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Before Glenn Greenwald realized he could make more money grifting leftists, he used to be neocon apologist that supported the Iraq war and stan'd for GWB. He was also a Ron Paul supporter. No one should give a shit about his opinion of the Democratic party or it's voters.

1/14/2019 1:35:09 PM

adultswim
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Shrike, do you think it's good that Democrat policy-makers are collaborating with neocons on a regular basis? Do you think it's good that Democrats support war in Syria and Afghanistan?

What in that article do you actually disagree with?

[Edited on January 14, 2019 at 1:47 PM. Reason : .]

1/14/2019 1:45:54 PM

TerdFerguson
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Greenwald is misinterpreting the polls that form the backbone of his argument in that article. It’s not that a majority of Dems suddenly support endless war in Syria, Its that a majority of Dems don’t trust ANYTHING that Trump touches or has a hand in. Skepticism is only increased by the fact that Trump has never produced a time table, hard numbers, or an actual policy of troop removals, it’s just another distracting lie he’s told. It’d be like supporting Trump’s healthcare proposals from the campaign: “it’s gonna be the biggest and best healthcare of all time, everyone will be covered.......”. Bull fucking shit, That’s not gonna get my support just because it sounds good.

If Dems were war-mongers you’d see them lining up and pushing for a strike on Iran, the one Bolton and the “doves” in the Trump administration were actively asking about a few months ago. Instead a vast majority of Dems were aghast at the idea they would even ask to form those plans. It’s why Senate Dems were able to pass a new war-powers act (to get uninvolved in Yemen) while the House GOP blocked it.

1/14/2019 2:40:32 PM

adultswim
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It's funny how they don't trust him to withdraw from these wars, but they do trust him to wage them. They praised him for escalating conflict in Syria.

1/14/2019 2:43:45 PM

dtownral
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^^ the argument i've seen from dems is that we need to stay in syria because of the kurds

1/14/2019 2:55:36 PM

Shrike
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Quote :
"What in that article do you actually disagree with?"


The entire premise? Like Terd said, it's not that Democrats are becoming more supportive of war, its that they inherently distrust the intentions and motivations of everything Trump desires.

1/14/2019 4:05:20 PM

HaLo
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I thought ISIS was defeated...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/16/politics/syria-attack-us-patrolled-city/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2F

[Edited on January 16, 2019 at 4:27 PM. Reason : Z]

1/16/2019 4:26:27 PM

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