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BlackJesus
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Ok so a bimmer engine out performs the corvette? I'm not sure (too lazy to search) but is there a bimmer that even performs on the same level as the corvette? (That doesn't cost 3 times as much)

1/14/2013 7:56:51 PM

theDuke866
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Dude, transverse leaf springs have inherent advantages.

That a different variation of the leaf spring arrangement is used on trucks is irrelevant. The Vette has a totally different design--it has nothing to do with a truck's arrangement.

If anything, the Vette uses an innovative suspension design that brings with it advantages not enjoyed by most sports cars.

^^ There isn't a BMW that performs with it at any price.]

[Edited on January 14, 2013 at 8:07 PM. Reason : ]

1/14/2013 8:06:09 PM

dtownral
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Price? Assuming > $65k

1/14/2013 8:09:12 PM

smoothcrim
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^^^there isn't a bmw engine that comes anywhere close to the corvette motor
^^^^the crown doesn't offer good driver dynamics or come in a manual. it's also not comfortable or powerful.

how is a direct injection v8 with variable valve timing and variable displacement a 60 year old design? the fact they can do these things while retaining a single cam is absolutely nothing short of amazing as single cam has huge merits of being simpler, lighter, and much smaller such that it can be moved very far back for great vehicle dynamics.

what is wrong with a 100 year old design if there isn't a difference in handling for a newer more complicated design? the magnetic ride suspension in the corvette is licensed/copied by a lot of companies from GM due to its remarkable properties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetorheological_fluid

I mean wheels and gears are pretty fucking old too, maybe they should be removed as well

[Edited on January 14, 2013 at 8:12 PM. Reason : ^^]

[Edited on January 14, 2013 at 8:13 PM. Reason : cam]

1/14/2013 8:12:04 PM

theDuke866
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Seriously. The transverse leaf spring (with dbl wishbones at every corner) is a bad ass suspension layout. I'd be more inclined to label it "exotic" than "primitive".

The LSx and new LT1 are also bad ass. An LS1 weighs about the same as a Miata engine--the entire swap adds like 50 lbs or something, I think, and that's basically all in the T-56 transmission. The LSx is also used in marine and aircraft applications due to its light weight, massive power, and ability to reliably operate at high output settings for very long periods. The LT1 adds more power and even more outstanding efficiency...

and yes, the packaging advantages that come with the pushrod setup offer great balance and polar moment advantages.

I'm not saying that we should ditch DOHC engines and go back to pushrods, but the 'Vette is not exactly archaic, and the elements of older design that it does retain are to good effect--not just for no reason.

1/14/2013 8:38:34 PM

Jek
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Interesting read for those of us not familiar with the Corvette leaf spring:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_leaf_spring

I always assumed they were similar to my Jeep Cherokee's rear suspension...way different heh. Weird to think about tuning springs on a Corvette for AutoX or track.

1/14/2013 8:45:39 PM

jawhitak
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Quote :
"Still using leaf springs. Fuck that car. I could careless that it will lap enzos."


Quote :
"what's wrong with leaf springs on crown vic?"


rofl 1in10^9, did you really just compare the two? sweet jeebus...

1/14/2013 9:35:19 PM

1in10^9
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^you missed sarcasm.

crim/duke, if vette works you, by all means enjoy it. im just telling you why it doesnt work for me.
it's not an opinion, but a fact that leaf springs (duke, im aware these are transverse leaf springs) and pushrod are old design and to me do not belong on a sports car that is coming out in 2014. C6R uses coils for example so it is quite obvious that for track performance chevy, too, knows whats more advantageous.

crim, you are contradicting yourself. you are driving a 540i for, as you said, for "good driving dynamics". why would DOHC V8 with multi link IRS have better driving dynamics from pushrod/leaf springs crown vic? thats precisely your retarded argument for a vette.

1/14/2013 10:21:28 PM

jawhitak
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ehhh sarcasm or not, it's still astounding that you're butthurt about transverse leaf springs simply because they're leaf springs.

1/14/2013 10:29:53 PM

1in10^9
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i think it is astounding that you couldn't comprehend my sarcasm about crown vic. it's visible from an airplane.

1/14/2013 10:34:38 PM

theDuke866
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Quote :
"and to me do not belong on a sports car that is coming out in 2014.
"


Why? They are very, very arguably superior to coils.

Quote :
"C6R uses coils for example so it is quite obvious that for track performance chevy, too, knows whats more advantageous. "


That's because it's a racecar that has to be fine tuned very specifically to different conditions, and it's a lot easier to do with coils. That doesn't mean coils are better, or even that they are as good in many ways. It means that for narrowly focusing the car to be optimized for one specific venue, it can be done more quickly and easily with coils.

1/14/2013 11:19:21 PM

1in10^9
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Duke, leaf springs cannot match handling of coils. I dont know how can you argue that having owned 330i, evo, s2k and being an MEng??? Two pivots points on leaf springs are acting against one another, not mention that the more compression you have on side, the more upward will other wheel go. It gets worse, especially during quick transitions. Design is so primitive and simple and it is time for chevy to retire it on their flagship car. Yes, you will save some unsprung weight, add reliability etc...which i never disputed to begin with. I view it as primitive and nothing will change that. If it works for you, great!

1/15/2013 2:00:41 AM

smoothcrim
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that's because race tracks are a-symmetric. you're either making a ton of rights on a clockwise track or a ton of lefts on a counterclockwise track. you can't make a right or left bias with a transverse leaf spring. leaf springs are also illegal in many organizations like nascar.

and finally, it has better driving dynamics not because of the engine layout, but because it has a manual transmission, ergo meant for performance driving, direct steering, a seat and suspension meant for going fast, a motor designed for throttle response and meant for the autobahn. the cars were designed for different purposes and aren't remotely comparable. the corvette is designed for the same purpose as the m3, 911, or any other sports car and most grand tourers and arguably does it better than any of them save maybe the GT-R under 100k and probably quite a few over 100k - interior fit and finish outstanding.

1/15/2013 2:01:39 AM

0EPII1
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Quote :
"^Don't you get it? They are trying to build an identity, the same way all bmw models look alike, the way all porsche models have the key signature body styling, etc."


Which is fine, except that design language is supposed to trickle down from the higher end models to the lesser ones, not the other way around. It would be great for a Malibu to get Camaro styled lights, but not for the Corvette to receive them. That kind of cheapens it.

Lexus designs are seeping into pedestrian Toyotas, not the other way around, just as an example.

They still should have been circles or squashed circles/ovals. And that central stack of 4? That's just bloody cheesy, unbalanced, and weird looking. How awesome it would have been to have 2 on each side, thus balancing the tail lights.

Other than the back fascia, the rest is great. Viper still looks better and/or more brutal.


[Edited on January 15, 2013 at 5:33 AM. Reason : ]

1/15/2013 5:32:49 AM

Hiro
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Why the fuck are we comparing corvette to bmw?

Wtf is wrong with you people? Can't we just enjoy the car for what it is? This is a grand touring two seater sports car that offers a level of performance that other new cars in the same category (read: Grand Touring Sports Car) are unable to deliver at a similar price point.

Find me a car you can buy new today that is ~$50k that is similar to corvette's power and handling characteristics... Off the top of my head (though it is early), I can't think of any.


^ Yeah, I can agree with that logic...

[Edited on January 15, 2013 at 7:34 AM. Reason : .]

1/15/2013 7:34:08 AM

sumfoo1
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So basically ITT a chemical engineer is arguing with a mechanical engineer about suspension design and what a spring can, and cannot do...




not gonna lie one in 10 you really don't know shit about what you're talking about and are coming off more as a troll than anything...

I'm sitting here waiting for arghx to come in, drop a white paper bomb on your ass and kill the thread.

Quote :
"yea, ill enlighten you.

it is primitive, automotively uncultured and archaic. just like the god damn pushrod that it still uses. i dont care about vette heritage, purpose, performance, reliability and other things you might start telling me about. i dont care how fast it is and how it will probably be 10 sec faster than the new m3 on all the circuits. Just bothers me to own a $60k sports car in 2014 that has primitive mechanical design. In usual vette fashion there is excess body contours where it is not needed. That bothers me at fundemental level. I am used seeing nicely trimmed overhangs that speak of sophistication.

When they start having ITBs, complex IRS, alcantara headliners, and trimmed body dimensions I will consider one. Until then I will treat it as a child that it is. A child for uncultured, uneducated, untraveled, unsophisticated overly-simple peasants who don’t know any better and haven’t tried any better. There! I said it! No filter!"


see all this rant is retarded... chevy (you should know that i'm a ford guy so i really have a negative connotation of GM) has used their resources to improve the cam in block engine. why? It's smaller and lighter... and what they lose in combustion efficiency they make up un power to weight ratio and packaging.... they did the over head cam thing 24 years ago with the zr1 in 89 and as cool as that was the car had to be widened to get the engine to fit and it was SIGNIFICANTLY ~(250lbs) heavier then the regular vette despite their efforts to keep weight down... Now leaf springs vs coils... SAME THING they're un-necessary weight and by adjusting the number of leafs, and the angle of the spring, materials and numerous other variables you can actually tune a leaf spring better then a coil... so...

IMHO you can take your blah blah chevy dumb bmw elite shit and shove it up your rear.

"BMW GREAT!" thats why the new M6 goes into limp mode when you take it on the track and weights a metric fuck ton.
Ohh and BTW... the 1m is heavier than the c7 vette is projected to be.... how stupid is that?

1/15/2013 8:10:00 AM

TKE-Teg
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ITT we learn that 1in10^9 doesn't know his head from his ass.

Quote :
"
Which is fine, except that design language is supposed to trickle down from the higher end models to the lesser ones, not the other way around. It would be great for a Malibu to get Camaro styled lights, but not for the Corvette to receive them. That kind of cheapens it.

Lexus designs are seeping into pedestrian Toyotas, not the other way around, just as an example.

They still should have been circles or squashed circles/ovals. And that central stack of 4? That's just bloody cheesy, unbalanced, and weird looking. How awesome it would have been to have 2 on each side, thus balancing the tail lights.

Other than the back fascia, the rest is great. Viper still looks better and/or more brutal."


Alright haters. Personally I think the rear lights are squared off because it fits the design language of the C7. Do you see circles anywhere else on the body of the car? No, it's more angular so that would just not work.

How is the center stack of 4 tailpipes cheesy? Are the 3 center mounted tailpipes of the 458 Italia cheesey? Is the singular huge exhaust pipe of the Lamborghini Aventador and Murcielago cheesy? If you want to talk about cheesy tailpipes, how about the stacked pipes of the Ferrari California? Or the even worse stacked tailpipes of the Lexus IS-F?

1/15/2013 9:02:22 AM

BlackJesus
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Nothing gives me a raging boner like a cammed corvette.

1/15/2013 9:21:30 AM

dtownral
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Quote :
"Personally I think the rear lights are squared off because it fits the design language of the C7. Do you see circles anywhere else on the body of the car? No, it's more angular so that would just not work."


The rounded square is currently in fashion, you see it in other automotive and industrial design everywhere right now. Its been dubbed the "squircle". I am not a fan.

1/15/2013 10:17:23 AM

Dr Pepper
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Quote :
"Nothing gives me a raging boner like a cammed corvette."



+1 on blackjesus man-card score.

1/15/2013 10:28:00 AM

sumfoo1
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agreed..

i was gonna adjust it to nothing gives me a boner like a cammed v8...

but you know what... even if it's just vettes... i'm proud of BJ.

1/15/2013 10:40:27 AM

TKE-Teg
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agreed

1/15/2013 10:44:15 AM

Ahmet
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I just have to say.. the tail pipes of the IS-F are indeed quite cheezy.

1/15/2013 11:10:00 AM

dubcaps
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Quote :
"How is the center stack of 4 tailpipes cheesy? Are the 3 center mounted tailpipes of the 458 Italia cheesey? Is the singular huge exhaust pipe of the Lamborghini Aventador and Murcielago cheesy? If you want to talk about cheesy tailpipes, how about the stacked pipes of the Ferrari California? Or the even worse stacked tailpipes of the Lexus IS-F?
"


they are all pretty cheesy. the corvette ones are especially bad though.

1/15/2013 11:16:57 AM

sumfoo1
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i like the audi equation...

poser douches in wanna be cars get 4 pipes...

the actual fast cars get 2

1/15/2013 11:35:35 AM

smoothcrim
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the corvette had 4 exhaust tips with center exit since the c5..

1/15/2013 12:00:42 PM

sumfoo1
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they had them in the shitty underpowered early c4s too (till the lt1 came out)

1/15/2013 12:01:46 PM

richthofen
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Quote :
"Wtf is wrong with you people? Can't we just enjoy the car for what it is? This is a grand touring two seater sports car that offers a level of performance that other new cars in the same category (read: Grand Touring Sports Car) are unable to deliver at a similar price point.
"


Because this is TWW.
This thread actually reminds me of the good old days of the Garage...love to see people actually arguing about something relevant.

1/15/2013 12:02:19 PM

1in10^9
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Quote :
"Now leaf springs vs coils... SAME THING they're un-necessary weight and by adjusting the number of leafs, and the angle of the spring, materials and numerous other variables you can actually tune a leaf spring better then a coil... so...
"


What? Leaf springs and coils are not the same thing. Principle behind a leaf spring is unchanged and im willing to bet that chevy knows what garbage it is in terms of handling abilities. The only reason why they still use leaf springs is to keep the roof line low since coils need more space to be fitted in the rear. It’s no secret why vette does well on the track in terms of numbers. It’s certainly not because of virtues of leaf springs, but rather wide track, traction from wide tires and low weight.

I didn’t bring BMW to conversation, others did. I simply stated that I don’t give a rats ass about this car. If I can recall aren't you also a BMW fanboi too? Werent you going to build a FI E30 with S50, get a E39 M5 and other pipe dreams.

1/15/2013 1:45:39 PM

TKE-Teg
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Quote :
"The only reason why they still use leaf springs is to keep the roof hood line low since coils need more space to be fitted in the rear"


There that makes more sense. But your argument is still wrong.

[Edited on January 15, 2013 at 2:03 PM. Reason : /]

1/15/2013 2:03:36 PM

smc
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1/15/2013 2:23:01 PM

1in10^9
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Quote :
"But your argument is still wrong.
"


Best ever technical rebuttal.

1/15/2013 2:45:37 PM

sumfoo1
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Quote :
"What? Leaf springs and coils are not the same thing. Principle behind a leaf spring is unchanged and im willing to bet that chevy knows what garbage it is in terms of handling abilities. The only reason why they still use leaf springs is to keep the roof line low since coils need more space to be fitted in the rear. It’s no secret why vette does well on the track in terms of numbers. It’s certainly not because of virtues of leaf springs, but rather wide track, traction from wide tires and low weight."



no shit leafs and coils aren't the same thing... a transverse leaf (especially when its a composite) is lighter is what i was saying... that's why they use them... same reason they use the cam in block engine hence "same thing"

its not like its a fucking axle mounted on a leaf spring like a truck or a 60s car... its a full blown double wishbone IIRC with a leaf across the bottom



i could see you boycotting it if it looked like this



but it doesn't.

if you read the rest of the fucking argument you would realize i actually mention that leaf springs are considerably more "tunable" than coils, if they thought it needed them they could have used multiple leafs, and tuned the angles of the spring etc for different non-linear performance.

1/15/2013 3:00:17 PM

1in10^9
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Ok, so lets do this. Put a load on either wheel and tell me what will the leaf do on the opposite mounting points from the loaded wheel in your picture? Can you answer that?

[Edited on January 15, 2013 at 3:11 PM. Reason : NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT TUNNING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

1/15/2013 3:10:41 PM

sumfoo1
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yes... it should be almost completely independent and the BS you read otherwise is forum hoopla

if you wanted to cut that spring in the middle and use 2 clamps per side it would function nearly identical to how it does now.


[Edited on January 15, 2013 at 3:16 PM. Reason : .]

1/15/2013 3:15:56 PM

1in10^9
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Quote :
"yes... it should be almost completely independent and the BS you read otherwise is forum hoopla
"


Almost independent? Nice. Yes, you could cut that spring, but then you are effectively turning it into multi link suspension I SO want this car to have. You pretty much told me why multi link works better. You still have not answered the question though.

1/15/2013 3:30:02 PM

Skack
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But guys...Top Gear mocked it (C6) for having a plastic bumper and leaf springs.
Right before going on and on about how great it handles and how fast it was around their track.

1/15/2013 4:08:09 PM

BlackJesus
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I don't care what kind of suspension a car has as long as its fast.



Some C6 porn



Corvette VS BMW



[Edited on January 15, 2013 at 4:50 PM. Reason : I quit. ]

1/15/2013 4:47:14 PM

1in10^9
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oh god...time to leave now

1/15/2013 6:00:14 PM

H8R
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don't forget this one!



[Edited on January 15, 2013 at 6:04 PM. Reason : f]

1/15/2013 6:04:07 PM

tchenku
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rear end looks waay out of balance (visually). same goes for the OP picture.

[Edited on January 15, 2013 at 7:19 PM. Reason : ]

1/15/2013 7:19:37 PM

sumfoo1
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It will imperceptivly stiffen the other side my some infintesmally small amount as the two mounts will isolate the full load from the other portion of the spring.

1/15/2013 7:39:28 PM

dtownral
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Videos outside of the video thread? Bye!

1/15/2013 7:51:09 PM

theDuke866
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Quote :
" Two pivots points on leaf springs are acting against one another"


They design it that way on purpose (starting with C5) so that the spring works as an anti-roll bar (spacing of the pivots controls the effect). Previously, they had a single rigid pivot in the center that fully isolated the two sides, but that's actually less advantageous.

1/15/2013 9:25:26 PM

BlackJesus
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LAST VIDEO. COIL OVERS CAN'T DO THIS!

1/15/2013 9:45:43 PM

JT3bucky
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too many lines, too many angles.

looks like a transformer and a 66 vette had sex.

1/15/2013 10:21:36 PM

vinylbandit
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Hate the Camaro back end.

1/17/2013 7:49:54 PM

dannydigtl
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Looks as bad as 1in10's logic

1/17/2013 9:53:58 PM

sumfoo1
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The reasons I wouldn't get this vette are
1 it's ugly
2 the vette driver connotation is as bad as the mustang one but with hairier chests and Hawaiian shirts
3 I'm a ford guy and driving a vette would just be sacrilege.
5. I'm sure the build quality will be a little wonky but I can get past panel gaps etc.

Reasons I would get this vette
1 bang for the buck can't be beat
2 lsx power is awesome
3 I'm sure they will cream about everything on the track... Stock...

That's why I argued with "I think im special" because he probably has the same reasons for not liking it that I do but tried to cross the line and be elitist over the design and bash the engineering in the car which IMHO is flawless
Goal : cheap ass car, pretty reliable, tons of fun, fast as balls... NAILED IT!

1/18/2013 8:07:22 AM

BlackJesus
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Don't forget the WAVE

1/18/2013 9:12:43 AM

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