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 Message Boards » » 2018 Toyota Supra / BMW Z5 Page [1] 2, Next  
0EPII1
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Huh, what are they doing together in one thread? That because they are being jointly developed and will [probably] share engines, but have their own unique sheetmetal! Since when did Toyota and BMW ever have any collaboration?



ENGINE

Quote :
"Under the hood is reportedly either a BMW-sourced inline-six cylinder engine, or a 2.0-liter four-cylinder engine aided by a pair of BMW electric motors. You might remember the project is being jointly developed with the German marque in co-development of the new Z5. Expected output is anywhere between 350-400 horsepower (260-298 kilowatts)."


Engine choices are a mystery till now. This guy does a great job of discussing what's known about the Supra, and his own informed speculation, along with spy pics and renders:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gZIyGYkviY
Feb 2017: He says the top model will probably have a TT'ed version of the V6 in the IS350, and that it will be on the same platform as the Lexus LC500.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNr8NMDMVJw
May 2017: Now he has revised his speculation and says it will probably be the S55 (top) and N20 (base) from BMW, as well as a BMW chassis, and will be made at Magna Steyr in Austria, which makes several BMW and Mini models.

If true, that means the whole thing will be European, except for the sheetmetal (which is Californian LOL)!

In the second video, he also shows collages of pics to scale he has put together to show the size of the car, from the front, back, and side, in comparison to the 86, MKIV Supra, and LC500. The comparisons led him to the above conclusions.

It will most probably be a 370Z competitor, and not an NSX or GT-R competitor, with the top model coming in at 350-400 hp, and speculation based on comments by designers suggest a $60K tag. A hybrid model might come out later.




TRANSMISSION

8-speed DCT!

A 6-speed manual might find its way inside the base model, if there is any.




IN ACTION

Watch it on the Nurburgring:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85qbZZbaULE




DESIGN

It will be heavily based on the FT-1 concept -- designed at CALTY -- that came out at the Detroit Auto Show in 2014. Yes, it will have the double-bubble roof as on the concept, and it will be strictly a 2-seater.

Red FT-1 in the flesh at Irvine Cars and Coffee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiQGOGFQ66s

Toyota brings red FT-1 to Jay Leno's Garage and sends the two designers to chit chat with Leno!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v_FA0cjwuo


CALTY released a graphite-colored concept later in 2014 (original in red), and that looks way better.

Graphite FT-1 at an auto show (where it debuted) being driven on the grass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF2cfzJKbUY


Slider to compare MKIV Supra with FT-1:
https://www.motor1.com/news/93863/2018-toyota-supra-everything-we-know

Awesome pics of both the red and graphite concepts and all past Supra gens for us oldies
https://www.motor1.com/news/93863/2018-toyota-supra-everything-we-know

Spy pics of Supra and Z5 together in the snow:
https://www.motor1.com/news/139798/toyota-supra-bmw-z5-spied

Spied up close at a gas station:
https://www.motor1.com/news/139465/2018-toyota-supra-spy-shots/

Beautiful studio shots of the graphite FT-1:
http://www.supraft1forums.com/forum/9-2018-toyota-supra-ft1-general-discussion-forum/2833-toyota-ft-1-concept-graphite-saddle-revealed-pebble-beach.html

Lots of nice side-by-side comparo pics between the FT-1, original render (see pics at bottom), and car from spy pics:
http://www.supramkv.com/threads/our-new-supra-renderings.574
Pages 1, 3, 4 are good




PICS

Original red FT-1 concept:

















Graphite FT-1 Concept:















Renders by http://www.supramkv.com/threads/our-new-supra-renderings.574 (click for more)







5/15/2017 1:29:23 AM

0EPII1
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Forgot to say, Supra Concept, which will basically preview the production model, will debut in October at the Tokyo Motor Show.

I hope we get some concrete engine/performance info soon!

5/15/2017 2:29:42 AM

TKE-Teg
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If it looks anything like those last few pics, we're gonna have problems.

Also, I'm pretty sure this car is already being judged (and rightfully so) for having BMW engines. Still, preferable to using another boring corporate V6

5/15/2017 8:31:07 AM

tchenku
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judging from the nurburgring video, yes, you will have problems

5/15/2017 2:17:50 PM

0EPII1
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^^ Do you like the FT-1? If so, do you wish the Supra came out looking exactly like that?

Either way, what power level should it ideally have? 350-400 hp to compete with the 370Z or 500-600 hp to compete with the GT-R and NSX?


^ Do you like the rendering? What about the FT-1? Which one do you like more, and do you wish the Supra came out looking like the one you like more, or do they both fall short?

And can you also please answer the power question I asked TKE above?


I really like the FT-1 concept, more so in graphite, but I prefer the rear of the render, and the rest from the FT-1. Mix those two, and it would be perfect.

As for power, if it is going to look like the FT-1, it looks more like a 450+ hp supercar. It would look, IMO, out of place if a production car that looked exactly like the FT-1 had 350 hp. I think it is that F1 nose that does it. The render looks like a 350 hp car.

Ideally, it should be revived as a new generation of the Supra, which means it should pick up where the previous one left off. The previous had 320 hp in the top model, so the new one should have ~350 hp, and should retail for 35-45K depending on options, with perhaps a base model with ~250 hp coming in at 25-30K.

However, considering that the 86 is 26-32K, the hypothetical base 250 hp Supra will be 30-40K, and the hypothetical 350 hp model will be 45-55K.

In comparison:

332 hp 370Z is 30-38K,
332 hp 370Z Roadster is 42-48K (40% premium over coupe? Never seen that before for any convertible)
350 hp 370Z Nismo is 42-46K

5/15/2017 10:29:05 PM

tchenku
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If going with the supercar FT-1 look:

THIS is what the Supra should look like, inacce$$ibility be damned.

I always imagined the Supra as a corvette-fighter, so I'd stick with 600+hp. Z06 MSRP is $84k so I imagine the supra would at least match that. The Supra needs to stay in this league.

And considering its GTR and NSX brethren are coming in at $110k and $156k respectively, I think the Supra is likely going to fall in the 6-digit range. And yeah, that graphite is

I know corporate wouldn't give a rat's ass, but I hope it's going to have a bullet-proof engine worthy of the 2JZ legacy. It should come out at least 700whp-capable like the GTR's. It should not have a fancy hybrid system mucking up the aftermarket potential.

-------------------------------------
If it ends up like the dumpier version towards the bottom:

Yeah, that looks like 300-400 hp, and I think it would be a poor decision on Toyota's part. That level of car is already there: the RC350. Put it on a 400 lb diet and give it a manual transmission option.

The Supra would simply be an RC under a new skin, and having the Supra in this league will taint its history.

5/16/2017 8:33:42 AM

tchenku
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threw that thing into photoshop to minimize the nose. I mean, it'd make a cool FRS


[Edited on May 16, 2017 at 8:55 AM. Reason : ]

5/16/2017 8:55:17 AM

TKE-Teg
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OEPII1, you'd be happy with 350hp...20 YEARS after it made 320?!? Talk about setting the bar low lol.


Quote :
"I always imagined the Supra as a corvette-fighter, so I'd stick with 600+hp. Z06 MSRP is $84k so I imagine the supra would at least match that. The Supra needs to stay in this league.

And considering its GTR and NSX brethren are coming in at $110k and $156k respectively, I think the Supra is likely going to fall in the 6-digit range."


The hell? Sure the Supra was a Corvette fighter...a base Corvette fighter. It was never built to compete with the ZR1 which was the top Vette of the 90s. Nor was it ever a direct competitor to the NSX, which was always $30-40k more expensive.

The FT-1 looks amazing. The renderings/best guess (based off spy photos) look horrible. Very frumpy and plain. There's no way that Toyota is going to let the GT86 (nee FRS) look better than the new Supra, let alone look inferior to a 7-8 year old 370Z. Also latest rumors have been suggesting this car will be priced similar to the MkIV when it went out of production so that's promising.

5/16/2017 9:09:06 AM

sumfoo1
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I will agree with this ^

however the stock supra.... held it's own against even the ZR1.

Truth is... i'd like to see this car cost between 50 and 80k and have 450-650hp depending on where it falls in there.

The O.G. supra isn't really light but if this weighs more than a mustang it will probably be ignored.

If this has a "toyota impossible to tune" ECU like many lexus performance models have this will sell as fast as....

well the lexus performance models. ...

I'd like it to have a back seat (again like the mkiv) but maybe have a light weight model without it ?

5/17/2017 10:34:37 AM

Hiro
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I like the idea of selling 2+0 and 2+2 models. Unfortunately, even with the Lotus Evora, the populous prefers the 2+2. That makes the feasibility of a 2+0 even harder of a reality for automakers...

5/17/2017 7:01:15 PM

0EPII1
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Quote :
"OEPII1, you'd be happy with 350hp...20 YEARS after it made 320?!? Talk about setting the bar low lol."


Hey, I am with you man, I, too, would like to see a 450 hp true supercar, but let's turn this into a philosophical and historical debate:

When a car ceases production for an extended period, say min 10 years, and is then resurrected, what power/performance level should it come back at? Should it debut a little above where it left off? If so, 350 hp sounds right. Or should it debut at the same level as other comparable cars of its time which have been in continuous production? If so, what are the options here? The top of the line 320 hp Supra TT model of the time can be compared to the base 345 hp C5 of the same era. The base C7 now comes with 455 hp, so that seems like a good power level for the top of the line Supra, with a base model(s) in the 300-375 hp range.

But then consider this: It also competed squarely with the 300ZX TT, which had 300 hp. That car ceased production in 2000, but US sales ended in 1996, and then it reemerged with all of... 332 hp, 13 years later in 2009! Shockingly, the 370Z still has 332 hp 8 years after its reemergence, or a whole 32 hp after it disappeared 21 years ago

Now what? Should the new Supra compete with the 370Z or not? If yes, it should come in at ~350 hp.

I prefer the "compete with C7" route. 450 hp would be sweet!

Latest Nurburgring spy video with great sound quality:

https://www.motor1.com/news/174211/2018-toyota-supra-nurburgring-video

Does that sound like a turbo 4 or a turbo 6?

7/21/2017 10:43:01 PM

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Quote :
"If it looks anything like those last few pics, we're gonna have problems"


+1, and the back end on the ones above those is ugly.

7/22/2017 1:18:04 AM

arghx
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"I gotta get a piece of that sweet sweet 370Z market"

said no product planner ever

7/22/2017 8:34:01 AM

0EPII1
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^ hahahah

but, there *are* other cars in that segment too

7/22/2017 6:41:57 PM

Ahmet
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370z is an outdated car the same way the S2000 was towards the end of it's run. I imagine something else is about to replace it...

7/23/2017 9:30:26 AM

TKE-Teg
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Quote :
"But then consider this: It also competed squarely with the 300ZX TT, which had 300 hp. That car ceased production in 2000, but US sales ended in 1996, and then it reemerged with all of... 332 hp, 13 years later in 2009! Shockingly, the 370Z still has 332 hp 8 years after its reemergence, or a whole 32 hp after it disappeared 21 years ago "


The 300ZX TT's successor was the 350Z, which debuted in 2003 and had 287 hp. Roughly 13hp less than the 300ZX, a few hundred pounds lighter, and at a significantly lower base price.

Not sure why you leaped over the 350Z straight to the 370Z. BTW MSRP of a 370Z is $29,999, or was for 2017.

7/24/2017 8:50:16 AM

0EPII1
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Yeah I totally forgot about the 350Z!

Anyway, so this Supra is not coming in like the 350Z did, i.e., less powerful, lighter, and cheaper than the last Supra TT.

But neither is it coming in as some Vette competitor as it should come in.

So, it will be some in-between car with ~350-400 hp in top trim, probably closer to the lower end IMO.

7/24/2017 9:55:14 AM

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NMSJ

7/24/2017 4:32:11 PM

sumfoo1
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This whole project seems like it's going to be a cluster turd


It seems more like it's going to be a boringly styled bummer with a less than reliable engine rather than an exciting Toyota with a beastly tank of an engine.

8/7/2017 10:10:50 PM

theDuke866
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Quote :
"exciting Toyota"




haha

8/7/2017 10:39:29 PM

sumfoo1
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Exactly....

Sad thing is with Toyota and Lexus having the current design language, this is pretty much the least angry looking car in the lineup....

8/8/2017 3:38:10 AM

TKE-Teg
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This car better blow everyones' minds away. Because Toyota already has a few RWD platforms that for some reason they're not using for this car. So it has to have specifications that put it far away from the Lexus coupes. If it's not 500 lbs lighter than the RCF or LC500 then I'm gonna have a big "wtf" look on my face for at least a month.

8/8/2017 10:32:08 AM

sumfoo1
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My guess is it will be 3800lbs and not have a back seat. Based on the z4 chassis and look like a sad fish.


That's what I have in my mind now.

To pay the mkiv the respect it deserves it needs a back seat and to look sharky

8/9/2017 10:19:16 AM

NSFW
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http://jalopnik.com/leaked-bmw-model-codes-document-suggests-upcoming-supra-1797682494

^ Nailed it

8/9/2017 3:37:51 PM

smoothcrim
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it's crazy that toyota hasn't made an interesting car in 20 years.

8/11/2017 11:01:47 AM

Hiro
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There is still so much speculation. I think it'll be a z4 brother or sure. I wonder if that means there will be convertible supras, or if they will be dedicated fixed roof coupes...

9A01,P,TOYOTA,,V01,TOYOTA,HAT,,,EUR,LL,FWD,5,MECH,,,


Regarding this, i wonder if there will be a up and coming fwd celica? just a thoguht.. This line right here leads me to be suspect of the Supra, maybe a "sporty" celica that's not been talked about, or perhaps, just plain inaccurate infor for publicity hype.

Time will tell...

I loved everything about the FT-1 concept. I wish it was production.
[Edited on August 11, 2017 at 12:37 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on August 11, 2017 at 12:38 PM. Reason : .]

8/11/2017 12:34:36 PM

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So if you guys are pissed about only 335hp+ on this Supra did you completely lost your collective shit about 200hp on the BRZ/FRS?

8/12/2017 1:31:53 AM

theDuke866
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That's not really fair...that car is like a modern day 240SX, or maybe supermiata or S2000-lite.

Attaching the Supra name to a car implies something more ballsy.

8/12/2017 10:49:26 AM

smoothcrim
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335hp in a 3400lbs car is camry status

8/12/2017 11:03:13 AM

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A Camery has 335hp? My 335i only has 300hp so that's a sub-Camery car?

[Edited on August 12, 2017 at 11:53 AM. Reason : The articles say that 335hp engine will be tuned so final hp number will be higher ]

8/12/2017 11:52:26 AM

sumfoo1
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Toyota needs to grow a pair and make something with a back seat and 400-500hp out of an inline 6 turbo

8/12/2017 1:58:26 PM

smoothcrim
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nissan maxima is 300hp, 3400-3600lbs
looks like that's the highest of the jap sedans.

kia's got 311 hp in their v6 sedan

chevy impala is 306hp 3600lbs

335i is 300hp 3600-3900lbs

yeah, you're in appliance car performance range

8/12/2017 7:11:52 PM

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Quote :
"Yeah, you're in appliance car performance range"


FOH troll.

[Edited on August 12, 2017 at 11:09 PM. Reason : Still waiting on your 335hp Camry tho]

8/12/2017 11:08:56 PM

0EPII1
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Quote :
"nissan maxima is 300hp, 3400-3600lbs
looks like that's the highest of the jap sedans. "


Not including the luxury sub-brands, sure. (and it is the 2018 Camry now, with 301 hp)

But including Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura, there are several 350+ hp sedans.

And while a 335 hp Camry has never existed, a 323 hp model has, a decade ago. It is a car which is a mildly re-skinned Camry, and is sold as a Camry in Southeast Asia, and as Toyota Aurion in Australia and Middle East.

Toyota Australia came out with a TRD Aurion in 2007, with 323 hp.

https://www.autoblog.com/2007/08/20/toyota-australia-launches-trd-aurion-with-323-h/

8/13/2017 1:22:09 AM

smoothcrim
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>3500lbs and < 350hp is 100% appliance car performance in 2017

10lbs/hp is a pretty low bar

8/14/2017 9:09:29 AM

TKE-Teg
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And yet, the list of vehicles that can achieve that ratio while maintaining a curb weight below 3,000 lb, that cost less than $100k, can be counted on one hand.

8/14/2017 3:02:31 PM

theDuke866
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I'm trying to think of what weighs <3000 lbs now.

Miata
little bitty economy cars
a few really rarefied exotics (and not even many of them)

8/14/2017 5:40:50 PM

TKE-Teg
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as far as sports cars go:

Miata
FRS/BRZ
Cayman (base model, stripped)
Boxster (base model, stripped)
Alfa Romeo 4C coupe & spider
Audi TT base FWD model might be under 3,000lb - but if that's the case can we call it a sports car?
Civic Si is around 2888 lb, but I don't consider that a sports car. (God no)

The only exotics that come close these days are by McLaren. Even the smallest, lightest Ferrari is right around 3500 lbs (488)

Pretty sad state of affairs, because 3,000 lb is pretty fucking heavy. It isn't an amazing achievement.

[Edited on August 15, 2017 at 10:20 AM. Reason : ]

8/15/2017 10:16:31 AM

theDuke866
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I didn't think any Caymans/Boxters were sub-3000.

Alfa 4c and BRZ, yeah. I wasn't sure if the BRZ was, and I forgot about the Alfa.

FWD Audi TT is not a sports car.

Civic SI is in the "itty bitty economy car" category.

As far as other exotics, there's McLaren, and then there's more boutique stuff that you might never even see in the wild (Mosler, Ultima, Panoz, Pagini, Koenigsegg (sp?). Hell some of them might not even be <3000 nowadays, if they still sell in America. Not sure if Ultima even counts...can you buy one turn-key in the U.S.?



Nobody who gives a shit would ever buy a non-"S" Boxster/Cayman...so yeah, unless you're in the 7-figure set, as far as new, production cars go...there's the Miata, BRZ/FRS, and Alfa 4C...and the 4C is the only one of those that's fairly fast.

[Edited on August 15, 2017 at 5:32 PM. Reason : cars have been fucking ruined in multiple ways. i can't wait for the self-driving ones to end it all]

8/15/2017 5:31:18 PM

sumfoo1
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Lighter would be nice but let's face it the mark 3 and 4 weren't light cars at all especially not for their era

The shit can be just under 4000lbs if it's over 500hp but otherwise this car can screw off

8/15/2017 7:27:02 PM

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Quote :
">3500lbs and < 350hp is 100% appliance car performance in 2017"


Bullllllllllshit. An appliance car is a fucking Yaris or a Corolla, not an Audi S4/S5, a 335i etc. Nice to hear the Focus RS an BMW M2 just barely escaped your "appliance car" axe. Calling everything that doesn't live up to your enthusiast standards an appliance car or a Camry is beyond ridiculous.

8/15/2017 8:25:36 PM

smoothcrim
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you named some luxury cars, none of which have great performance, just slightly better than their baseline counterparts (328i, A4, A5). the performance diffs on these models is just to signify them as "upmarket" cars, they aren't performance cars. look man, you can take it personal and be butt hurt if you want, but if the car isn't a utility vehicle (van, truck, or suv), or a performance vehicle where performance matters, ie: competition of some kind (sports car or high end GT car), then you're left with appliance cars and luxury cars. your 335 is a luxury car, but it absolutely has modern appliance car performance. in a day when you can buy a 700hp dodge for <$60k and a camry/maxima/impala with >300hp, >10lbs/HP is a pretty low bar for performance

8/15/2017 10:28:55 PM

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Quote :
"you named some luxury cars, none of which have great performance, just slightly better than their baseline counterparts"


Except your original argument was any vehicle that is ">3500lbs and < 350hp is 100% appliance car", which I pointed out the obvious flaws in, and now you're trying to qualify that dumb argument over and over after getting called out on it.

Quote :
"then you're left with appliance cars and luxury cars"


The automotive world ain't black and white man. Most dudes don't want to daily drive a track superstar. Hell look at Duke who owns those two extremes. Guess which one he drives every day. I like to live in the middle of those two extremes.

Quote :
"your 335 is a luxury car, but it absolutely has modern appliance car performance. in a day when you can buy a 700hp dodge for <$60k and a camry/maxima/impala with >300hp, >10lbs/HP is a pretty low bar for performance"


Except I bought it used 6.5 years ago for $24.5k. I have no interest in spending 60k on a car.

[Edited on August 16, 2017 at 12:09 AM. Reason : I also have zero interest in driving any of the dumb vehicles you cited, and I don't think you do either]

8/15/2017 11:43:19 PM

TKE-Teg
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Quote :
">3500lbs and < 350hp is 100% appliance car performance in 2017

10lbs/hp is a pretty low bar"


name an appliance car that has 10 lb per horsepower.

Quote :
"I didn't think any Caymans/Boxters were sub-3000.

Alfa 4c and BRZ, yeah. I wasn't sure if the BRZ was, and I forgot about the Alfa.

FWD Audi TT is not a sports car.

Civic SI is in the "itty bitty economy car" category."


Looks like a lot of people are taking interest in the Cayman/Boxster base models now that they pack 300 hp. Not sure about their exact weight though, because when they switched to turbo flat 4 engines they also gained weight (pretty f'ing lame) while at the same time also received a smaller fuel tank, to make the weight gain less obvious.
At least the base models are now sub 5 second cars though.

BRZ is well under 3000 lb. Under 2800 lb actually. Unfortunately it has that pathetic lump of an engine.

Freaking Civic Si is now larger than the Prelude ever was. I'd lament it's huge size but it's so ugly so really who cares.

[Edited on August 16, 2017 at 7:49 AM. Reason : ]

8/16/2017 7:47:41 AM

0EPII1
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Civic Type R is 3,117 lbs with 306 hp.

Just putting it out there

8/16/2017 8:01:22 AM

smoothcrim
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Quote :
"The automotive world ain't black and white man. Most dudes don't want to daily drive a track superstar. Hell look at Duke who owns those two extremes. Guess which one he drives every day. I like to live in the middle of those two extremes."

I daily drive a cayenne, what's your point? Just because most of us want less of a razor edge daily, doesn't mean that cars don't fit in fairly obvious buckets.

I said >10lbs/hp is an appliance, <10lbs/hp is performance. you can have luxury appliance (bmw, jaguar, infiniti) or you can have econo appliance (honda, nissan, toyota), you can have luxury performance too.

I fail to see how these classifications aren't fairly obvious. you could argue the delineation points a bit, but the margin for error is fairly slim with only really rare cars like a golf R or civic type R (special low volume trim levels of otherwise low market cars) dancing in the gray areas.


[Edited on August 16, 2017 at 10:46 AM. Reason : o]

8/16/2017 10:45:02 AM

0EPII1
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GUISE, the new BMW will debut tomorrow

But the Toyota not till the Tokyo Show in October, maybe even later, at NAIAS in Jan. Who knows, if we are lucky, we might see it in Frankfurt in Sep!

8/16/2017 11:04:35 AM

theDuke866
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^^^^

That's another thing...pretty sure I don't want a 4-cyl Cayman.
And yeah, the Civic is huge now, and the Si is like, Aztec-ugly.

8/16/2017 12:35:34 PM

TKE-Teg
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yeah I wouldn't pay new Porsche prices for something with 4 cylinders either. to hell with that.

8/16/2017 4:16:04 PM

0EPII1
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Couple of points:

1) The Si (coupe) looks pretty good and has a nice profile/silhouette. It is the R (hatch) that looks Aztec-ugly... just IMO! They should make the R as a couple as well.

2) Honest question: Does it matter at the end of the day how many cylinders or how much displacement a car has? The base Cayman/Boxster (both now called 718) is more powerful than the S models of the previous gen. And the S now has a lot more power than the previous S. What does it matter whether it has 4 or 6? Aren't power/torque and power/torque curve the most important things? With all the turbocharging these days, cars have more power, significantly better power curves (isn't that what you want???), and also sip less fuel than their previous generations. Isn't that a win-win?

3) All 718 models are 3,000+-50 lbs, so that's pretty good!

4) When I saw 3,500 lbs for 488 (TKE), I was like no way that's impossible! Looked it up: 3,014 dry; 3,245 kerb.

5) The lightest McLaren, Lambo, and Ferrari all come in the 3,150 - 3,400 range, with fluids.

8/16/2017 11:09:15 PM

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