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 Message Boards » » Progressive Dems credibility watch Page [1] 2, Next  
bbehe
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2016
Dems: Go out and vote our Republicans will appoint Justices that get rid of Roe and kill other rights.
Progressives: That's an overreaction, I'm voting Stein

2022:
Progressives: Bring up articles of impeachment against the justices on charges we don't even believe or we won't vote.

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 10:16 AM. Reason : a]

6/29/2022 10:09:37 AM

Bullet
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labels

6/29/2022 10:15:58 AM

rwoody
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I actually considered making a "voter credibility watch" the other day, for when someone is upset with voters but not our elected leaders. Decided it felt a little too.....childish

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 12:01 PM. Reason : E]

6/29/2022 12:00:44 PM

StTexan
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In 2016 a large enough subset of both dems and progressives who thought Trump had no chance and couldn’t stomach Hillary, sat out. Once Trump won it opened the flood gates of crazy, which is still reverberating today.

I kind of like this thread so we can call out all the non-starter ass shit AOC/Warren/Sanders preach upon, like court packing and defund the police.

6/29/2022 12:25:36 PM

HaLo
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I too like this thread. Calling for stupid shit that will never pass does far more harm than working to make continuous small incremental changes. The right understands that rolling back policies is far easier done with small changes than big swoops (SCOTUS rulings not withstanding)

6/29/2022 12:29:05 PM

thegoodlife3
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always fun to see Team Status Quo show up while rights continue to be taken away

6/29/2022 12:50:36 PM

bbehe
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Status Quo that was on the line in 2016 was Roe vs Wade.

6/29/2022 12:56:34 PM

bbehe
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Protecting everything dems have achieved with the status quo while doing incremental change and shifting the overton window to the left was critically important, and it continues to be. Clinton probably wouldn't have moved us much farther to the left, but Trump easily set us 10-20 years back.

6/29/2022 1:13:19 PM

thegoodlife3
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right wing radicals are openly embracing fascism both politically and through the courts, and you’re focusing your attention on the progressives who sure seem to be the only ones who are taking the threat seriously, as opposed to sticking your hands in your pockets and quietly saying to yourself, “it’s fine. the institutions will hold”.

6/29/2022 1:28:49 PM

bbehe
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I'm focused on getting people to vote because apparently "right wing radicals are openly embracing fascism both politically and through the courts" isn't enough.

You think if they took the threat seriously, they would be first in line to vote without dumb shit stipulations like court packing or impeaching justices even if the charges are fake.

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 1:36 PM. Reason : a]

6/29/2022 1:35:12 PM

bbehe
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Seriously, my fear of that was why I voted in 2016. I had a tumor pressing against a nerve and was in the most intense pain of my life, but I still hobbled to the poll, held my nose, and voted Clinton.

Don't lecture me on it not being a concerned or worried that progressives/dems once again will sit up because of some contrived excuse when the alternative is WAY worse. The people who were concerned are the ones who showed up in 2016 and 2020 to vote.

6/29/2022 1:50:27 PM

rjrumfel
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And now there are whispers of Hillary running again.

6/29/2022 1:51:11 PM

thegoodlife3
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you seem to be in favor of thumbing your nose at an energized, young bloc of voters who at a base level are just wanting to vote for people who will vote for things that will improve the quality of life for those who aren’t wealthy

things that are popular, I might add

we’re in desperate times, and not attempting to do things that will help end the desperate times is a death sentence

^^ please post some actual numbers that support your theory that progressives sitting out cost Clinton the election

^ never change, man

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 1:53 PM. Reason : .]

6/29/2022 1:51:28 PM

bbehe
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https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/registered-voters-who-stayed-home-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/

Younger voters, who skew progressive, sat out in much greater numbers

6/29/2022 2:00:03 PM

bbehe
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The Jill Stein votes in the 4 key states exceed the vote differential between Trump and Clinton. Progressives like Sanders Press Secretary were openly calling for people to support Stein.

6/29/2022 2:03:05 PM

thegoodlife3
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a very good and timely column:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/06/29/roe-v-wade-democratic-establishment-failures/

^^ so you’d like to alienate them more by not listening to them?

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 2:04 PM. Reason : .]

6/29/2022 2:04:14 PM

bbehe
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They've shown they don't show up at the polls, it makes more sense for Dem candidates to focus on swaying more moderates who actually show up.

I want this country to go left, I agree with a ton of progressive ideas. However how do you rationalize with someone who says 'If Biden doesn't forgive all my student debt, I'm not voting', or someone who voted for Stein in 2016 and refuses to admit that was a mistake? Or someone who says 'both sides are the same' when the past 4 years should have beaten that idea out of their head.

I'm happy to listen to ideas, but you have random blue checks saying 'Well, we should impeach someone even if there aren't charges to support that' which does absolutely nothing and hurts more than it helps.

6/29/2022 2:19:34 PM

thegoodlife3
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the supreme court has proved itself to be illegitimate

I’m fine with doing whatever we can to further delegitimize it

especially considering the age of the Trump justices

6/29/2022 2:51:22 PM

utowncha
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people like TGL3 want to win over suburban housewives by encouraging the crazies to burn down CVS.

ultra progressives do everything in their power to make people hate them.

6/29/2022 2:55:48 PM

rwoody
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This thread APPEARED to be made based on frustration about a post referencing SCOTUS putting yet another dent into the voting rights act. I simple pointed out the further dissonance bw saying voting is the only solution, while watching voting rights and access be eroded.

And hey maybe red states ARE just fucked, maybe nothing can be done. But fuck TRY SOMETHING. Don't give me nothing and expect me to be happy.

It's just so spot on to this tweet

6/29/2022 3:02:30 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"They've shown they don't show up at the polls, it makes more sense for Dem candidates to focus on swaying more moderates who actually show up."


aside from the fact that this is what they've already been doing...

help me understand the logic. you're telling me that progressives won't hold their nose and vote for a moderate, but moderates will hold their nose and vote for a progressive. so your solution is to sway more moderates and lose the progressive vote, rather than sway more progressives and retain the moderate vote.

6/29/2022 3:03:32 PM

thegoodlife3
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ding ding ding

6/29/2022 3:07:28 PM

bbehe
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^^^ Wow, what a radical take on centrists. Never heard that before.

Change in deep red states is possible but it will not be something that happens overnight, over the course of one election, etc. To effect deep and meaningful change, you have to commit to it, even when it is slower and more incrememental than you want

And daaave, you support the extermination of Ukrainians and wanted Trump to win because you think it would have been better for our country. People like you are why Trump won and Roe was overturned.

6/29/2022 3:12:09 PM

rwoody
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Quote :
"To effect deep and meaningful change, you have to commit to it, even when it is slower and more incrememental than you want"


And our elected leaders plan to implement change by........

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 3:13 PM. Reason : E]

6/29/2022 3:13:18 PM

bbehe
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Appointing Liberal justices
Filling the Circuit Court judge seats at a record peace
Expanding the powers of the EPA
Passing/defending the ACA and continuing to expand medicade/medicare
Expanding protections for LGBTQ+
Continuing to support unions
Passing stuff like the Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act


There is so much impactful shit that Obama and Biden have done.

6/29/2022 3:17:22 PM

rwoody
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Cmon man I know we don't see eye to eye at all but you know this discussion is framed especially around Roe v Wade Dobbs I guess.

BUT all those things you mention are at severe risk from an activist court. The first one probably won't be a factor for, what, 20 years?

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 3:50 PM. Reason : E]

6/29/2022 3:49:51 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"And daaave, you support the extermination of Ukrainians and wanted Trump to win because you think it would have been better for our country. People like you are why Trump won and Roe was overturned."


Ukraine strawman, okay. But to your second point, I already responded to it years ago - I didn't actually want Trump to win - I wanted Biden to embrace more progressive policies and choose a progressive running mate. Unfortunately that didn't happen and now we have the second most unpopular president in recent history, on track to be #1.

But to the point, you have in front of you an extremely active and dedicate socialist who voted third party, but would have voted for Sanders or Warren. Volunteering for Sanders was a second job for me - I spent hours and hours every single week on the campaign. I still spend many hours a week organizing in my city. There are thousands and thousands of people like me who are ready and willing to support and volunteer for progressive candidates. Let's capitalize on that energy instead of shutting out the most passionate among the left. As you said, the moderates will vote regardless.

6/29/2022 3:52:13 PM

bbehe
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You didn't want Trump to win, but you voted third party.

Congrats man.

6/29/2022 4:13:41 PM

daaave
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I'm in a solidly blue state.

I know you're upset, as are a lot of people right now. I'm just trying to help you understand the perspective of the people you're angry with - it isn't impossible for us to work together.

6/29/2022 4:23:28 PM

UJustWait84
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No, some people are impossible to work with: see Qanoners, ANTIFA, Big Lie supporters, Russia supporters, etc.

Quote :
"And now there are whispers of Hillary running again."


Chris Cillizza is a hack and I laughed when I read that piece of shit article he wrote yesterday

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 4:30 PM. Reason : .]

6/29/2022 4:26:26 PM

bbehe
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^^ You, and others with large social media presences like Briahna Joy Gray, were shouting from the rooftops you weren't going to vote for Clinton. You don't think that had any impact? Please.


And if it becomes the Dems trying to attract more people from the center to vote for them vs trying to attract accelerationists or people who are actively supporting Russia, guess which one will probably win out?

6/29/2022 4:32:58 PM

rwoody
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I'm curious how some people here would vote if there was a theoretical election pitting Sanders vs, I don't know, GWB.

Sanders v DeSantis

6/29/2022 4:34:12 PM

thegoodlife3
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where do you think the center is in 2022?

6/29/2022 4:34:32 PM

UJustWait84
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At this point Liz fucking Cheney is seeming moderate/center. That's how screwed we are.

6/29/2022 4:36:41 PM

bbehe
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Further to the right than it was 4 years ago. Why it's important to continue to shift it left, even if the progress is slow.

6/29/2022 4:37:21 PM

daaave
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Do y'all plan to volunteer for any candidates in the midterms?

6/29/2022 4:38:04 PM

bbehe
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^^^ Basically.

If I lived in Wyoming, I'd sure as shit be changing my registration to Republican to help her win the primary.


^ At bare minimum, I sure as shit don't plan on trying to dissuade anyone from voting for the Dem candidate.


[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 4:42 PM. Reason : a]

6/29/2022 4:38:33 PM

daaave
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phone banking for a single day can turn your vote into 10-20 votes. you won't do that but you'll spend hours yelling at a guy on the internet who voted for a third party in a blue state. politics really is a sport to some people.

6/29/2022 4:45:04 PM

UJustWait84
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Quote :
"I'm curious how some people here would vote if there was a theoretical election pitting Sanders vs, I don't know, GWB.

Sanders v DeSantis
"


I have repeatedly said I would have held my nose and voted for Sanders in both 2016 AND 2020 if he became the nominee, but that didn't freaking happen. He lost a popularity contest to both HRC and Biden and I am no real fan of either. Instead, I did the right thing held my nose and voted HRC in 2016 and Biden in 2020 because I'm not a petulant child and I got over the fact that Warren was never going to win without throwing a tantrum. I didn't throw away my vote on some third party candidate like morons did for Ralph Nader in 2000, because I took 8th grade civics and knew that EC upsets happen.

Quote :
"phone banking for a single day can turn your vote into 10-20 votes. you won't do that but you'll spend hours yelling at a guy on the internet who voted for a third party in a blue state. politics really is a sport to some people."


Maybe if we keep yelling at you to wake up and admit your stupid strategy doesn't work, you can channel that energy into phonebanking for a candidate that doesn't frighten the shit out of people who are deathly afraid of Cold War era communism?



[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 4:53 PM. Reason : I'll vote for Gavin Newsom over DeSantis in a heartbeat]

6/29/2022 4:47:58 PM

bbehe
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The only serious dem candidate I would have had issues with was Tulsi. Everyone else would be a no brainer

6/29/2022 4:52:57 PM

rwoody
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Thank you for the answers. Glad to hear them.

6/29/2022 4:55:21 PM

daaave
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Quote :
"Maybe if we keep yelling at you to wake up and admit your stupid strategy doesn't work"


my strategy is working great - socialism is more popular than it has been in a very long time and socialist org membership is growing rapidly. unions are forming all over the country. people are realizing that democrats aren't going to save us. dark times ahead but a bright future is possible!

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 5:00 PM. Reason : .]

6/29/2022 5:00:16 PM

UJustWait84
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right, which is why it's getting bipartisan support, and all this progressive ideology is being codified into laws, along with SCOTUS who is working tirelessly to expand people's rights.

GET. THE. FUCK. OUT.

6/29/2022 5:02:02 PM

daaave
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unfortunately i have little control over what the corporate-controlled Dems choose to do. i can only choose what to do with my own time.

6/29/2022 5:03:47 PM

UJustWait84
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you're insufferable

6/29/2022 5:04:30 PM

bbehe
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Double post

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 5:24 PM. Reason : A]

6/29/2022 5:21:40 PM

bbehe
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Daave is your end goal for the US to be more like China? Honest question

6/29/2022 5:23:20 PM

daaave
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China developed from it's own historical conditions and is on it's own path. Socialism in the US would look very different from an ontological necessity. So my answer to your question is no.

Do I think there are things we can learn from Chinese socialism? Absolutely. Infrastructure development, corporate accountability, steady increases in quality and length of life, public health policy, etc. It says a lot when every branch of our government has approval ratings in the 20s-30s while China has broad approval, despite its shortcomings.

[Edited on June 29, 2022 at 5:43 PM. Reason : .]

6/29/2022 5:43:28 PM

UJustWait84
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Public opinion doesn't exist in China the way that it does here. We've already been over this before and your only response is linking some CCP "studies".

You have this romanticized fantasy of a place you've never even visited. It certainly has come along way over the past several decades, but there's a reason American expats are fleeing Shanghai/Beijing/HK in droves, yet so many Chinese people are willing to overstay their visas and try and make a go of it here, warts and all.

Now, let's here your thoughts on why Russia is so great.

6/29/2022 5:58:58 PM

daaave
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it was a harvard study, you just refuse to believe it

https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf

don't like russia, told you this many times

6/29/2022 6:04:09 PM

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