^ I posted something similar yesterday.

11/18/2012 8:00:21 PM

Quote :

"Many people say this is about land and it is but not the violence because the west bank has been relatively peaceful. This is about poverty and the forced isolation Israel has inflicted on the gaza strip with the blockades. Israel is making them into the poorest place on earth and times are so desperate that attacks may seem like the only way out. This is about freedom. The rest of the Palestinians aren't happy but they are letting Israel take their land, crush their religious rights and continue to settle without getting very violent about it. Its pretty hard to fight if you are living a middle class lifestyle."

This is really good commentary. I can see the cycle.
- the poor people beyond the fence launch rockets and commit desperation terrorism
- the rich side of the fence blocks the movement of people and goods around the poor area... because they don't want terrorist attacks anymore
- the poor people have less to lose, become more insular and ideologically driven

I think it's more than just Palestine, this cycle probably fits a lot of areas around the world.

11/18/2012 10:39:39 PM

Quote :

"There's something pretty perverted about firing into a building that you KNOW to be occupied by innocent civilians, including women and children."

How do you suggest handling it? If you have an entire city hiding in bomb shelters because of rockets raining from the sky, and the source of the rocket fire is on top of or immediately next toa church or a school, how would you protect your people?

11/18/2012 10:44:34 PM

Quote :

"How do you suggest handling it? If you have an entire city hiding in bomb shelters because of rockets raining from the sky, and the source of the rocket fire is on top of or immediately next toa church or a school, how would you protect your people?"

The rinky-dink rockets coming from Hamas are so pathetically ineffective, that your hyperbole is barely worth responding to.

The US has already handed Israel the "Iron-Dome," which is intercepting these sorry-ass rockets at a pretty effective rate. There is a mortality ratio near 100:1 every time these actions occur. And I'm supposed to sit here and consider how terrified people in a city in Israel feel while an entire Palestinian city is being systematically oppressed and terrorized by their occupiers? Give me a fucking break.

But I just want you to admit that you are, once and for all, tolerant of killing innocent civilians for their crime of being near supposed militants.

Because you fucking are, no matter how many times you shed alligator tears for the innocent lives lost.

If you really gave a shit about the peace process, you'd be vocal about your desire RIGHT NOW, THIS VERY INSTANT, instead of cowering back and reluctantly accepting what's happening in your name.

11/18/2012 11:19:02 PM

He's okay walling them off in a ghetto and depriving them of basic supplies and medicine, of course he's fine with it. The vice article I posted makes a clear distinction here, the rockets being fired at Israel are crude.

Quote :

"VICE: Does Tel Aviv feel like it’s under attack? Anonymous source in Tel Aviv: It’s actually kind of fine here. We haven’t seen any damage, and when the press say “missile,” it’s not a missile, it’s really very crude. It’s not even a bomb; it’s something full of old bits of pipe and scaffolding that sort of falls and breaks. It will kill what it lands on, it might damage a house, but it’s not hugely dangerous. And they’re not targeted missiles, so they’re not very accurate either. What’s the general mood on the street? The attitude of the Israeli people seems to say: “Hamas think that’s gonna hurt us? They can’t touch us.” There’s actually a bit of Jewish pride and joviality about it, but mainly everyone’s been totally normal. There’s no hysteria, and whenever you ask people what’s going on, they’re just like “Look, they’re not really going to bomb Tel Aviv because Hamas knows that this is our Achilles' heel and that would be it; we’d fucking nuke them.” OK, well the BBC says they just did, or at least appear to have tried to. Yes, but no one in Tel Aviv is taking those ones seriously. Like I said, Israelis are laughing because of how crudely designed, inaccurate, and harmless they are. They're seen as pathetic, laughable, empty threats. That said, if they really start to cause damage then yes, the general opinion is that Israel will retaliate with a vengeance, AKA all-out war. Jesus. Have you been told to go to a bomb shelter? No, but if we do have to go to a bomb shelter, apparently there’s one about a minute-and-a-half away. "

11/18/2012 11:58:27 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6nLrUg_bzs

This video makes me want to write it all off as a lost cause.
The rocket launchers believe they need to keep it up so Israel will leave.
The Israelis will never leave as long as rockets are being launched.
The Israelis see an attack that kills a militant (rocket launcher) as imminently justified.
The Palestinians celebrate the death of a militant, as if it is cause for justifiable outrage.

It sounds like both sides are determined to not work with the other. Making the first move to peace and the end of occupation won't be initiated by either. It'll just continue, Gaza strip will just be a meat grinder for as long as I can imagine. It sounds like systematized recruitment and martyrdom. With their demographics they shouldn't have a problem maintaining this indefinitely.

11/19/2012 8:46:07 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUiW43AuYHI

Two guys being interviewed by CNN, one in Gaza, one in Israel, both talking about how scared they are etc, etc

Then, about midway through the interview, missiles start exploding right outside the Gaza guy's house. He insists on carrying on the conversation up until the camera cuts out :I

[Edited on November 19, 2012 at 10:49 AM. Reason : .]

11/19/2012 10:48:14 AM

11/19/2012 11:37:35 AM

everyone sensible ignored this as a non-story for the reasons they mention, but for the two who didn't:
http://gizmodo.com/5961685/anonymous-is-losing-its-war-against-israel

11/19/2012 11:39:30 AM

Want to make sure it is known that most Israelis don't want to see Palestinians dying:

11/19/2012 3:06:32 PM

ain't that sweet of them

11/19/2012 3:21:13 PM

64 trucks of food entered, 210 trucks of food needed
16 trucks of medical supplies entered, 120 trucks of medical supplies needed
26 patients taken care of, 660 people injured during the strikes

How nice of them to barely try to provide a small drop of relief for the very problem they caused.

11/19/2012 3:30:10 PM

That's a seriously depressing statistic

11/19/2012 3:37:31 PM

Where's Egypt's support? Lebanon? Syria? Jordan? Where's the love from the Arab League trying to help their brothers in need?

I agree Israelis are not doing enough. But Gaza's self proclaimed supporters are doing nothing. Where is the call for their action?

11/19/2012 4:32:59 PM

Should Syria send in some trucks of food and medicine?

But yeah, they should be doing something.

11/19/2012 4:39:36 PM

You are seriously pathetic.

first you post IDF propaganda, and then you deflect criticism.

The responsibility to stop the carnage doesn't fall on their neighbors. It falls on the shoulders of those inflicting the pain.

Please, just stop.

You will stop at nothing to excuse this obvious conquest. It's disgusting.

11/19/2012 4:50:39 PM

http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp

Israeli vs Palestinian Casualties prior to this conflict.

[Edited on November 19, 2012 at 4:54 PM. Reason : .]

11/19/2012 4:54:01 PM

If the Arab League were occupying the Palestinian territories, then the Arab League would bear the responsibility of ensuring the well-being of Palestinian civilians.

Israel's been negligent in that role since 2007.

11/19/2012 5:49:16 PM

Let's be clear guys, even though Israel has been encroaching on their territory, pounding them with missiles, blockading most foreign aid, and meanwhile enjoying relative opulence and worldwide political support...the onus is on those savages' brown friends in Syria to make their lives less of a living hell

[Edited on November 20, 2012 at 9:48 AM. Reason : .]

11/20/2012 9:46:14 AM

Sorry about the blockade, here are a few trucks of supplies lol

Love,
Israel

11/20/2012 10:23:22 AM

Israeli president was on piers morgan and said all they have to do is stop shooting and they wont have to worry about suffering anymore. As if 1.7 million people are shooting rockets.

11/20/2012 11:27:58 AM

Quote :

"The rinky-dink rockets coming from Hamas are so pathetically ineffective, that your hyperbole is barely worth responding to."

BULLSHIT. I don't care HOW effective the Hamas rockets are, they are intended solely to cause civilian casualties. They are not attacking any military target. That is completely and totally reprehensible, and Israel has EVERY right to take those sites out. if the civilian populace allows those assholes to hang around and do that shit, then they are getting what's coming to them for supporting it.

Quote :

"There's something pretty perverted about firing into a building that you KNOW to be occupied by innocent civilians, including women and children."

The moment those "innocent civilians" let those assholes in their building and allowed them to stay, they are no longer "innocent." End of story.

Quote :

"But I just want you to admit that you are, once and for all, tolerant of killing innocent civilians for their crime of being near supposed militants. "

It's not the crime of simply "being near" them. It's enabling them and not kicking them the fuck out. In the US, we don't arrest people for being the neighbor of someone who hid an escaped convict, for example, but we sure as fuck arrest those who actually help hide the convict. Meanwhile, you don't see the false claim of "civilians" being used here, and you eat up the Hamas propaganda about those poor innocent people, just minding their own business, sheltering and hiding militants who are shooting rockets into actual civilian areas for the purpose of killing, injuring, and terrorizing civilians.

11/21/2012 12:27:44 AM

^watch the two Youtube videos on this page and you will see that it's not that simple. Is it morally more reprehensible to fire inaccurate rockets towards general direction of military sites knowing well there is no way to tell what they will end up hitting, or launching an ultra-precise missile that you KNOW will hit some bystanders while also taking out your target (see interviews with Palestinian rocket launcher brigade and the Israeli helicopter pilot)? There is a lot of gray area there.

As far as civilians allowing militants to be around, I don't think all of them have a choice. What do you so when a bunch of people with guns set up shop on your block? Do you go and politely ask them to leave? Civilians end up having to choose between leaving their homes or living in danger of becoming a casualty any day, neither one of which is great. I think your convict neighbour analogy is a little bit off. The more comparable scenario is, if Mexican government was shelling the US and half the US was rooting for fighting back, how would you "kick out" a heavily armed neighbor who would be a part of the state militia and would you even have the balls to call him a terrorist, especially if the neighbor from the other side supports his activities and both of you started calling you a traitor?

Both sides are guilty here, the conflict is very deep-rooted, and I have hard time blaming one side more than the other.

11/21/2012 1:06:01 AM

A bomb went off on a bus in Tel-Aviv less than an hour ago and Israelis are starting to panic.

11/21/2012 6:00:22 AM

Quote :

" if the civilian populace allows those assholes to hang around and do that shit, then they are getting what's coming to them for supporting it."

Yeah man, they should just take a charter flight and to live in their Lake Como villa when Hamas sets up. It's not like they are poor, living in poverty, uneducated and largely unaware to the rest of the world.

You make it sound like these guys can just up and leave Gaza at the drop of the hat, which is utter nonsense.

FTR, I'm deeply torn on this issue. Israel has the right to defend itself as any recognized country should but its obvious that Israel herself is much to blame for the helplessness of the Palestinian civilians who get caught up in this.

11/21/2012 6:34:50 AM

Here's how the elected leaders of Gaza are running their judicial system for their own people:

Quote :

"6 Gaza men were executed by Hamas because they were suspected collaborators with the enemy. Their bodies were dragged through the streets by a motorbike lynch mob."

11/21/2012 7:33:42 AM

One does wonder why you don't hear as strong of calls for peace from Gaza. The hard reality is that Israel is a rich, Western-ish, country. They have free speech there, while I wouldn't believe the same thing for Gaza.

I picture the Gaza Strip as a speeding train that just can't be stopped. It wouldn't matter if 75% of its citizens didn't want the rocket launches continued. I think Israel could soften its approach if it wanted, but the question is "what then?" Would they just become more radical? Israel could turn the other cheek and not respond to force with force, but I think they hold a similar image of Gaza, where it's just like a wild animal that's actions are irrelevant to reason.

Their side on the internet demonstrates the radicalism perfectly. The common catch-phrase is "Palestine wants its land back!" I think this is a code word for the destruction of Israel. Plus, there is a point about anti-Semitic attitudes. Jewish people have been literally exterminated in many other Muslim nations. They're not welcome in the region.

That's just not okay in the context of our Western values.

11/21/2012 9:02:50 AM

Quote :

"The common catch-phrase is "Palestine wants its land back!" I think this is a code word for the destruction of Israel."

It's not code. They had land. The UN took it and gave it to Israel. They want it back. Well, actually the UN gave Israel some land, Israel took even more since then, and they want it back.

Quote :

"That's just not okay in the context of our Western values."

What does this mean? The only reasons it's not "OK" is because Israel is our ally and we were involved in creating their state. What does "the context of our Western values" even mean or have anything to do with it?

11/21/2012 9:16:26 AM

They have a population of young men without optimism or hope for prosperity because they live in a walled in and embargoed country, of course this is going to create radicalism.

11/21/2012 9:58:39 AM

Quote :

"It's not code. They had land. The UN took it and gave it to Israel. They want it back. Well, actually the UN gave Israel some land, Israel took even more since then, and they want it back."

If you want to put it in terms of national land ownership, it was never their land. It was always under the rule of someone else. It was Judea, then it was Babylon, then it was Persia, then it was Greece, then it was Rome, then it was Byzantine, then it was Ottomon, then it was British.

Britain left and with the aid of the UN split the land. That was the first time Palestinians ever existed as a nationality. Until that point never was there a Palestinian nation or nationality. There were just Arabs who lived in the territory called Palestine.

11/21/2012 9:59:51 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R03Dtu1r6nk

11/21/2012 10:10:33 AM

Quote :

"It's not code. They had land. The UN took it and gave it to Israel. They want it back. Well, actually the UN gave Israel some land, Israel took even more since then, and they want it back. "

The land that is now Israel + Palestine was 12% Jewish in 1900. Now, it's about 50% Jewish. The population of both the Jewish people and the Muslim people there has increased since then.

Were you under the misconception that the holocaust only happened in Germany? It's nice for us to now look back on the actions of the UN like it happened in a vacuum. This is the shit that was happening in the Middle East around that time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Quote :

"While the Allies and the Axis were fighting for the oil-rich region, the Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husayni staged a pro-Nazi coup in Iraq and organized the Farhud pogrom which marked the turning point for about 150,000 Iraqi Jews who, following this event and the hostilities generated by the war with Israel in 1948, were targeted for violence, persecution, boycotts, confiscations, and near complete expulsion in 1951."

I would love to hold an image where Jews from all over the Middle East paraded into Israel saying "yay, now we have the land we wanted given to us". But that's not what happened. They were being hunted and killed the world over. The United States and Israel were the main refuges for them, so it's easy for us to look around and say "well the Jews are doing great here". They didn't migrate from other nations in the Middle East to Israel because they liked it better.

Obviously, the hands of modern Israel aren't clean either. They have set up settlements where they shouldn't have (mainly in the West Bank), but now those places collectively have upwards of a million people. Plus, reorganization of settlements is always a part of the negotiations. Israel moved their people out of the Gaza Strip. Israel's argument is "look what happened after that", and let's be honest, it's not an invalid argument.

The "land" argument should only be a localized argument. As I've made perfectly clear, Jews never stopped existing in that land. If you were going to make the absurd move of putting everyone back to the pre-WWII ownership structure (aside from total colonial ownership) then that doesn't even result in Jews leaving the place. But people yelling this literally want Jews out. You can't possibly be dignifying that view!

I used to argue for the Palestinian side. Obviously Israel looks like a bigger, stronger, bully. It's still important to call for restraint, but the facts just aren't on the Palestinian's side. The population is fanatical. If Palestine had the capability to level Israel right now it would. Israel does have the capability to level them and they don't. Israel's argument is that giving them more trade freedom results in more arms being used against them, and giving them more movement autonomy will create a beacon for the most extreme terrorism hotbed in the world, importing radicals from the rest of the region and growing ever more and more radical.

I realized that I didn't have a counterargument to that. If you do please share it. Israel has a point.

11/21/2012 10:16:54 AM

^^^We're getting to a point of semantics that is ridiculous. "National Land Ownership" means what exactly? It was Arab controlled for hundreds of years and continued to be even when Britain took over.

Does the fact that the Native Americans never had an official "national land ownership" change at all the fact that we stole their land?

Quote :

"Were you under the misconception that the holocaust only happened in Germany? It's nice for us to now look back on the actions of the UN like it happened in a vacuum. This is the shit that was happening in the Middle East around that time: "

What does that have to do with anything? Yes, Jews were killed and persecuted by Muslims and Christians throughout history. Does that mean they were entitled to an Israeli nation?

Quote :

"But people yelling this literally want Jews out. You can't possibly be dignifying that view!"

Remember with whom you're arguing with here. I think they're all fucking retarded for hating each other based on ancient scrolls (and the subsequent centuries of violence of course). I'm not dignifying their views. But from their perspective they're an occupied people, of course they want the occupiers out.

Quote :

"Israel's argument is that giving them more trade freedom results in more arms being used against them, and giving them more movement autonomy will create a beacon for the most extreme terrorism hotbed in the world, importing radicals from the rest of the region and growing ever more and more radical. I realized that I didn't have a counterargument to that. If you do please share it. Israel has a point."

Yes, they do have a point. Of course if the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world and Iran that hates their guts had a chance they would be annihilated. I'm just suggesting that if you were on the other side of the war you'd think differently.

[Edited on November 21, 2012 at 10:33 AM. Reason : reordered]

11/21/2012 10:32:18 AM

Quote :

"^^^We're getting to a point of semantics that is ridiculous. "National Land Ownership" means what exactly? It was Arab controlled for hundreds of years and continued to be even when Britain took over. Does the fact that the Native Americans never had an official "national land ownership" change at all the fact that we stole their land?"

Would I then be most correct in thinking that the Jewish should have this "natural" mandate for something close to 12% of the area?

For one, such a methodology would obviously flawed, even if I did want to roll back to the 1900 status quo. Secondly, a 1900 status quo is pretty obviously dumb. Even the Israeli's seem to agree that the Palestinian people are entitled to something. Even where the Palestinians have land, Israeli blockades and stuff fucks up their lives. The criticism isn't just Israeli administration of lands, but that their administration sucks. That is a valid complaint, and this should result in a real negotiation, but before you know it, someone busts in shouting PALESTINE WANTS THEIR LAND BACK

Quote :

"I'm just suggesting that if you were on the other side of the war you'd think differently."

Of course. I've just found it difficult to be sympathetic when every (clearly) pro-Palestinian person I've talked to has made it such a non-starter. They don't seem to be willing to come to a negotiating table.

But hey, in 2 years, it'll probably be the case that both Israel and Iran may be in the quantum superposition of having/not having a nuclear weapon. I put myself in the position of Iran, and I agree that they would not be likely to use it because they are rational people at their core.

11/21/2012 10:58:34 AM

Lets be honest here. The rest of the Arab nations don't really give a shit about Palestine.

11/21/2012 11:20:51 AM

^let's say you actually know what you're talking about? what relevance does that have in the situation?

11/21/2012 11:33:26 AM

Quote :

"Does the fact that the Native Americans never had an official "national land ownership" change at all the fact that we stole their land?"

so i guess you'll be turning over your home to some native american tribe then??

11/21/2012 11:37:40 AM

That's obviously not the point he was making.


But, just to play along, if you were an American settler occupying native American land, why would you NOT expect the native Americans to shoot arrows at you?

Why don't you just go ahead and admit to a pro colonial, pro expansionist mindset? To the victor goes the spoils.

Quit trying to intellectualize it. You support the conquest of land and the eradication of savages.

11/21/2012 12:35:54 PM

cease fire agreement reached. it's all good now anyways

11/21/2012 12:52:55 PM

Until the next election, anyway.

Hawks can't win without a sworn enemy, yo.

11/21/2012 1:03:33 PM

^^Except that it's not. The cease fire has been called for but it hasn't fully happened yet. My friends in Israel are posting that the sirens are still going and there are still explosions from rocket fire.

That's a clear lack of control in Gaza. There are some who will never stop firing no matter who tells them not to, and as long as they are, Israel won't trust Gaza's government to handle the situation.

Quote :

"Israel will hold Hamas responsible for any attacks from Gaza, whether conducted by that organization or any others, Regev said. He said the agreement reflects that understanding. Regev also said the deal calls for immediate talks on economic restrictions on Gaza. "If the border is quiet, that enables us to be more forthcoming," he said. "The arrangements agreed with the Egyptians say we'll start talking from tomorrow about a process to work on those issues.""

[Edited on November 21, 2012 at 3:19 PM. Reason : -]

11/21/2012 3:15:50 PM

Quote :

"That's a clear lack of control in Gaza. There are some who will never stop firing no matter who tells them not to, and as long as they are, Israel won't trust Gaza's government to handle the situation."

Imagine that, Israel assassinates all the government officials in Gaza and there is a lack of government control in Gaza!

11/21/2012 6:04:41 PM

Hamas is a militant group, not a political machine that excels in diplomacy. Chaos is all they know.

11/21/2012 6:27:51 PM

The same thing could be said about the Likud party, which formally recognizes the right to establish settlements and continue expansion, but feel free to continue projecting.

11/21/2012 6:37:12 PM

You can't control people if you are unable to provide for them

11/21/2012 7:50:05 PM

Yeah ..... 2 states will never happen. Israel is just running out the clock at this point.

11/21/2012 8:09:00 PM

Eh. I hate homo sapiens. Seriously. You damn dirty apes.

11/21/2012 10:06:47 PM

Quote :

"Israel could turn the other cheek and not respond to force with force"

Why is it assumed that Israel is responding to Palestinian force? Didn't Israel assassinate Ahmed Jabari in the midst of a ceasefire?

Quote :

"The common catch-phrase is 'Palestine wants its land back!' I think this is a code word for the destruction of Israel."

I think this is code for, "You've stolen our land since 1967. You're still stealing our land. Stop stealing our land!"

Quote :

"Israel does have the capability to level them and they don't."

How benevolent; I know that when reminded of Operation: Cast Lead, I immediately think of Israeli restraint.

Quote :

"Israel's argument is that giving them more trade freedom results in more arms being used against them, and giving them more movement autonomy will create a beacon for the most extreme terrorism hotbed in the world, importing radicals from the rest of the region and growing ever more and more radical."

Is there a case study where, since Hamas was elected, Israel has increased Gaza's trade freedom?

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but Israel's choking of Gaza's free trade has hastened the radicalization of Gaza's inhabitants.

[Edited on November 21, 2012 at 11:38 PM. Reason : ]

11/21/2012 11:38:09 PM

Quote :

"Didn't Israel assassinate Ahmed Jabari in the midst of a ceasefire?"

No. The assassination was in response to an ongoing series of rocket attacks on southern Israel. That would be the opposite of a ceasefire.

11/22/2012 12:15:29 AM

To clarify, Ahmed Jabari was assassinated in the midst of a truce.


To perhaps reach a consensus on this, my understanding is:

Neither side really fired upon another for the two weeks preceding November 8.

On that date, Israeli soldiers killed 13-year-old Palestinian Ahmad Abu Daqqa.

Attacks ensued on both sides until November 12, at which point a truce was declared.

Two days later, Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, which resulted in the most recent escalation of conflict.

[Edited on November 22, 2012 at 1:28 AM. Reason : ]

11/22/2012 1:07:54 AM