Quote :

"Harris/ O’rourke O’rourke/ Harris Who gives a shit, beat Trump."

Beto - Pres/Harris VP is the best combination in my opinion. Although I would support Booker too.

2/1/2019 11:44:22 AM

If the democratic establishment gets behind O'Rourke, someone who has failed to endorse democrats, supported republican legislation, and refused to share any of his war chest with other democrats, they need to shut the fuck up forever about Sanders not being a team player or enough or a democrat.

2/1/2019 11:48:12 AM

not a beto fan, but:

1 - What democrats did he fail to endorse?
2 - What GOP legislation did he support? Seems like a pretty dumb indictment without any accompanying context. There's plenty of bi-partisan/co-sponsored legislation out there that makes good sense. I'm not into the zero sum game stuff.
3 - Who did he not share his war chest with, and what intent did the contributors to his campaign have?

2/1/2019 12:27:06 PM

i would have thought i needed links a couple months ago but thought this was all common knowledge now

1. I was thinking of Gina Ortiz Jones, he said good things about her republican opponent instead
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/19/us/politics/beto-orourke-democrats-president.html

2.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/20/beto-orourke-congressional-votes-analysis-capital-and-main
https://www.newsweek.com/beto-trump-orourke-2020-democrats-republicans-1266938

3.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/411553-beto-orourke-will-not-share-38-million-he-raised-with-other-dem-senate

2/1/2019 12:52:23 PM

Quote :

"Beto - Pres/Harris VP is the best combination in my opinion. Although I would support Booker too."

Why?

2/1/2019 1:11:11 PM

https://www.facebook.com/36872302227/posts/10158596846047228/

Bookers launch video is strong

I’m thinking the front runners are booker and Harris now, basically the centrist candidates

I would personally advocate for warren but I think she comes of as too wonky.

[Edited on February 1, 2019 at 1:24 PM. Reason : ]

2/1/2019 1:24:05 PM

"centrist"

2/1/2019 1:26:48 PM

Cory Booker wants to privatize the school system. This would be a disqualifier for a "left winger" in just about any other country.

Harris charged a homeless woman with two jobs with a felony because her kids missed too much school, then bragged about it.

[Edited on February 1, 2019 at 1:54 PM. Reason : .]

2/1/2019 1:51:55 PM

I'd take anyone of them over Trump (or Pence, or Cruz, or probably Kasich)

2/1/2019 2:16:36 PM

Ok but we’re talking about the primary.

2/1/2019 2:28:20 PM

Ok, but I'd take whichever one can beat Trump. ANY democrat (sorry, I know that's not really on topic)

2/1/2019 2:39:11 PM

Quote :

"Schultz today said he wouldn't want to speculate as to what he would do as president. What a perfect vanilla, centrist statement for your favorite candidate."

I'm not saying he's awesome. I'm saying I haven't heard anything disqualifying out of him yet, which might turn out to be enough to make him my favorite candidate by default.

Quote :

"I’m thinking the front runners are booker and Harris now, basically the centrist candidates "

Right, "single payer" healthcare, the centrist solution.

2/1/2019 2:42:31 PM

They don’t actually care about single payer

2/1/2019 3:08:37 PM

America: "Democrats please give us a Centrist candidate so we can vote out Trump"

Democrats:
"Eliminate private insurance"
"Wealth Tax"
"Infanticide"
"Replace Constitution"


This is why you are not seeing "Never Trumpers" get on your side. Dems are not even trying to build a bigger tent. They are just hoping that revulsion for Trump makes people swallow policies they'd otherwise never find acceptable.

2/1/2019 4:01:35 PM

Ah, yes.

"Trump is really the fault of Democrats"

2/1/2019 4:28:36 PM

Hey, if life begins at conception, then why the extra hub hub over late term abortion? Are prolifers now saying there is a difference between a blastocyst and a viable fetus? Or is this just yet another example of how conservative ideology lacks any internal logic/consistency?

2/1/2019 4:29:39 PM

Quote :

"Right, "single payer" healthcare, the centrist solution."

Supporting policies desired by most of the country makes you not centrist?

2/1/2019 4:45:30 PM

Quote :

""Infanticide""

fuck you

2/1/2019 5:21:50 PM

Quote :

"I would personally advocate for warren but I think she comes of as too wonky. "

What about her makes her "wonky?" Warren/Booker is still my most desired ticket.

2/1/2019 5:41:13 PM

Quote :

"swallow policies they'd otherwise never find acceptable."

i.e. policies popular among most americans

2/1/2019 5:46:33 PM

Please show me any poll where the majority of Americans support any of those policies proposed by dems that I listed above.

2/1/2019 10:27:40 PM

Show me a list that isn't bullshit.

Infanticide.

GTFO

2/1/2019 10:31:53 PM

http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/

2/2/2019 1:07:37 AM

https://www.businessinsider.com/majority-americans-approve-elizabeth-warren-wealth-tax-plan-2019-1

[Edited on February 2, 2019 at 1:47 AM. Reason : Infanticide and replacing constitution wtf]

2/2/2019 1:47:16 AM

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/403248-poll-seventy-percent-of-americans-support-medicare-for-all

2/2/2019 9:37:57 AM

When they changed the name to single payer, support was split 50/50. When they found out that it would require additional tax funding, more people opposed it than supported it.

2/2/2019 2:32:42 PM

How does the support run when they find out the additional tax funding will actually be cheaper for them than the premiums and co-pays they're currently paying?

2/2/2019 6:45:01 PM

How does that support then change when they find out that CBO scoring on gov't healthcare programs is historically off by at least an order of magnitude?

2/2/2019 7:47:21 PM

And how does that support change when they find out the CBO was off on Obamacare due to Republican obstruction (such as blocking the Medicaid expansion)?

2/2/2019 8:09:03 PM

I like the quick fire goal post moving

2/2/2019 11:02:00 PM

Quote :

"An “ideological knife fight” is fine and proper to have in a primary. It’s kind of the purpose, no?"

Normally I'd say yeah, obviously. And even now it's a fine line I guess I'm drawing here. The list of candidates has to be whittled down, and they should be critically evaluated during that process. But it would be enormously helpful to have it done civilly, quickly, and with a clear winner that can mobilize the most voters. Because, and i reiterate, any of the current candidates is such an overwhelming improvement over the incumbent that they may make the difference between a functioning country and the death of western civilization.

There's also the broader issue of primaries being a shitty way to do things...

Quote :

"I get that you're a "sensible moderate" (aka protector of white supremacist power structures), but we need socialist policy to beat Trump."

1) I'm not a "moderate" by any reasonable definition of the term. On your side I support a single payer healthcare system and functionally open borders. On the other side I support modification and potential expansion of capital punishment and continued enormous military spending. On neither side, at the moment, I am a booster of free trade - with sensible distribution of a portion of the gains - as the best means to continue lifting people out of poverty and increasing standards of living all over the world.

2) This business of calling everybody who isn't in lock-step with you a white supremacist nazi racist? That's exactly what the fuck I'm talking about.

3) I maintain (and you've not really offered evidence to the contrary) that a hard-line socialist policy base will not mobilize more voters for our side than it will for the Republicans.

Quote :

"When they changed the name to single payer, support was split 50/50. When they found out that it would require additional tax funding, more people opposed it than supported it."

NEWSFLASH

MESSAGING MATTERS

WE NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAM

Yes, when people have the question put to them in a way that emphasizes the negatives, they respond in the negative. This tells us exactly dick about what they'd really prefer, just like all current favorability polls for Trump are hopelessly naive. Yes, he's in the toilet right now; he will go up dramatically when there is one candidate with flaws and unpopular policy decisions as the only alternative.

2/3/2019 11:01:31 PM

Quote :

" I support modification and potential expansion of capital punishment and continued enormous military spending"

hey guyz I'm a psychopath, incorporate my ideas into your party, I have good input. K thnx guyz.

2/4/2019 7:18:59 AM

And yet here I am, desperate for any Democrat to win.

You'll notice I haven't been in here talking about specific policy proposals. I'm not much better at falling in line as a Democrat than I was as a Republican - the open borders and single-payer healthcare beliefs are ones I've held for many years. And so I'm not in here advocating for Democrats who believe what I believe - there aren't any, and if there were, they couldn't win the primary or the general.

The only thing I'm advocating is a Democratic victory over Donald Trump. Under our current hobbled election system, this can only be achieved by motivating right-minded voters to cast ballots and minimizing motivation for Trumpists to do the same. To the extent that I have alluded to policies at all, it has been to suggest that far-left proposals would have the opposite effect and are thus undesirable at this juncture, at least with the current crop of candidates. Because I have also allowed that such policies might not be too much of a hindrance to a sufficiently charismatic, energetic, and transformative candidate.

2/4/2019 7:57:23 AM

hey guyz democrats should move to the right to appeal to moderates because that has worked so well for them in the past. k thanks guys, i'm a republican, listen to my ideas.

2/4/2019 8:26:10 AM

i'm not a Booker fan. he's grandstands on hot topics to get attention and then doesn't vote to back agendas that are less visible but are consistent with the general philosophy related to those more visible policies.

yes, I get that makes him a politician, but what gets me is he acts as if he is super genuine and that is what he promotes as a selling point, when he's just the same as everyone else. that just rubs me the wrong way (same thing happens when republicans speak all about moral high ground but they are anything but).

2/4/2019 11:05:45 AM

^^Only reason Trump won in '16 was because he pulled in a lot of rust belt people who probably typically vote blue. I bet only 1/3 of those folks are going to come back to red in 2020.

2/4/2019 11:20:52 AM

the democratic party has lost their working class labor base over the last few decades because of the kind of shit grumpy is calling for, but trump won because clinton couldn't energize nearly as many voters as obama had.

2/4/2019 11:27:05 AM

^^^ i recently started following him and Harris on social media, and Harris' social media has been a lot more appealing.

Her campaign hasn't been mincing their words like Booker has been doing. She spoke out about the prison issue in NY too.

I can def see Booker appealing more strongly to white people though, which is going to be a big factor.

Disappointingly though neither booker nor harris is taking the wealth tax/high top marginal tax stuff very seriously, which I think are necessary components right now to address inequality.

2/4/2019 11:38:34 AM

Quote :

"Her campaign hasn't been mincing their words like Booker has been doing. She spoke out about the prison issue in NY too."

she had to backtrack her statement on medicare for all last week when she said she was in favor of eliminating private insurance

2/4/2019 12:35:15 PM

But in the moment she didn’t mince her words

2/4/2019 1:32:10 PM

Saw a MorningConsult polo that had Warrens wealth tax polling at +42. It seems so strange that something with overwhelmingly positive approval is still being talked about as radical among Beltway types.

2/4/2019 2:39:58 PM

^ https://morningconsult.com/2019/02/04/warrens-proposed-tax-on-wealthy-draws-more-support-than-ocasio-cortezs/

I'd like to see polling pertaining to what proportion of independents lean left or right, as opposed to the common perception that independents are essentially centrists.

Quote :

"I haven't heard anything disqualifying out of [Howard Schultz] yet, which might turn out to be enough to make him my favorite candidate by default."

Quote :

"Right, 'single payer' healthcare, the centrist solution."

Hypothetically, if you had to choose between voting for Howard Schultz (or abstaining) and potentially re-electing Donald Trump or voting for a Democratic candidate who supports single-payer health care, would you opt for Donald Trump's potential re-election over the potential of a single-payer health care system?

[Edited on February 4, 2019 at 3:25 PM. Reason : ]

2/4/2019 3:24:56 PM

Quote :

"t seems so strange that something with overwhelmingly positive approval is still being talked about as radical among Beltway types. "

Unconstitutional taxes should be considered radical, regardless of how popular they may be.

2/4/2019 4:28:16 PM

^^he's already said yes, he'd rather have Trump

^regardless of the truth of that statement, frankly "constitutionality" should be way down the list of points when debating the merits of a proposal. The constitution can be changed and was designed to be changed. A democracy/republic should be governed by the people not a 200 year old piece of paper.

2/4/2019 5:07:34 PM

^^What's unconstitutional about it? Was it unconstitutional in the '50s when we had a rate of 90% or more?

2/4/2019 5:12:52 PM

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

--The Constitution, 16th Amendment

2/4/2019 5:14:22 PM

Wealth is not income but estate taxes are a wealth tax.

Estate taxes and warrens wealth tax have similar impacts too.

I could see a deal where we eliminate the estate tax, but institute the wealth tax, I think i would support this. I’d have the wealth tax kick in at a lower rate if we did this.

2/4/2019 6:03:29 PM

^My bad. I thought we were talking about a top marginal rate of 70% on income.

2/4/2019 6:32:11 PM

Quote :

"Wealth is not income but estate taxes are a wealth tax."

The supreme court ruled in 1921 in New York Trust Company v. Eisner that estate taxes are legal because they are an excise tax on the privilege to transfer property at death, not a tax on the wealth itself. No amount of mental gymnastics works around the wealth tax being unconstitutional.

Quote :

"frankly "constitutionality" should be way down the list of points when debating the merits of a proposal. The constitution can be changed and was designed to be changed. A democracy/republic should be governed by the people not a 200 year old piece of paper."

it takes a special kind of stupid to not see the dangers in this logic.

2/4/2019 7:35:19 PM

I mean hes not the moron who said taxes are unconstitutional

2/4/2019 7:47:28 PM