or he is going to kill her or fight against her

5/6/2019 8:57:30 AM

the writing has gone full Hollywood. In GRRM's world Tormund would have taken it through the neck in that battle. Instead he's painful comic relief.

5/6/2019 8:58:04 AM

Quote :

"or he is going to kill her or fight against her"

That's what I was hoping his response was going to be to Brienne. After naming all of the terrible things he's done for her I was hoping he was going to follow it up with "and now I'm going to kill her" or something along those lines.

But I didn't get that from his response.

5/6/2019 9:10:50 AM

he was going to stay until he found out euron attacked the fleet, stares at a fire and looks back at brienne in bed, and leaves in the middle of the night. i think he feels shitty about all the bad things he had done for cersei, he tells brienne about the bad things he's done because he doesn't think he is a good man who deserves to be happy. he says cersie is hateful, and so is he... he's hateful about the things he's done. i don't think he wants to go back to save cersie or be with her or fight with her.

5/6/2019 9:41:57 AM

Quote :

"Tormund would have taken it through the neck in that battle. Instead he's painful comic relief."

Apparently the Tormund/brienne thing was totally accidental too

Quote :

"But it almost didn’t happen. The script for season six, episode four, the chapter in which Tormund and Brienne locked eyes for the first time made no mention of a lusty look from our beloved wildling leader. It was improvised by Norwegian actor Kristofer Hivju, who took a vague stage direction and morphed into a full-blown crush."

5/6/2019 9:56:39 AM

Quote :

" Shit why not just aimed all the heavy arrows at the last dragon. "

Why not just aim them all at the unsullied and Dany? Cersei could have ended it then and there, and she isn't exactly known for being honorable.

There were kind of a lot of wtf moments in that episode. Dany fleeing from Euron's fleet and just leaving her own ships to get torn apart? That seems out of character for her. I guess they are trying to show that she is stretched at the seams when it comes to her leadership choices, especially now that John has a better claim to the throne.

Jaime leaving was kinda weird too. Didn't really make sense to me.

Sansa needs to calm the fuck down too. She promised not to tell anyone, and made it a whole 2 mins before blabbing to Tyrion. I get that she is threatened by Dany but still, she saved the life of every single person in Westeros and she has clearly shown that she is an important political ally. Even if they aren't friends.

I will say that I did like seeing Gendry get legitimized and made lord of Storm's End and Arya and the Hound back together. Looking forward to some good banter there since Arya isn't a little girl anymore. Maybe she'll be the one to kill Cersei after all? I think Cersei and the Mountain are the only people left on her list, and obviously the Hound's unfinished business is the Mountain so she'll give that one to him.

5/6/2019 10:08:54 AM

Quote :

"she saved the life of every single person in Westeros "

I mean, arguably? I guess her dragon glass, armies and dragons helped delay the AOTD but arya struck the only blow that really counted. And without Dany, would AOTD even be south of the wall? She gave them a dragon.

5/6/2019 10:15:15 AM

^So the Night King's entire plan was just to wait north of the wall for however many centuries until a dragon showed up for him to kill/resurrect? I just figured that was more of a convenience for him. Ultimately, wouldn't he be able to just freeze some of the water near the wall and have them walk around it?

Yeah, Arya did strike the killing blow, but without Dany's armies, I don't think it would have played out that way.


Sidenote though: I thought dragon's were supposed to be all-powerful/near indestructible weapons? How did Aegon the Conquerer takeover Westeros thousands of years ago if all you need to defeat them was some giant arrows that can launch from a mile away with 100% accuracy?

5/6/2019 10:38:32 AM

maybe Aegon didn't suck so much at dragon tactics

5/6/2019 10:52:45 AM

The giant arrows were new tech invented by Qyburn (tested it on the giant dragon skull under the keep with Cersei). Weapon specifically built to kill Dany's dragons. I guess the previous dragon wars didnt have such "sophisticated" weaponry.

5/6/2019 10:55:55 AM

^scorpions existed and had killed at least one dragon before, albeit on what was claimed to be a lucky shot. Maybe qyburn customized to increase power/accuracy, is what the writers would claim?

Quote :

"So the Night King's entire plan was just to wait north of the wall for however many centuries until a dragon showed up for him to kill/resurrect? I just figured that was more of a convenience for him. Ultimately, wouldn't he be able to just freeze some of the water near the wall and have them walk around it?"

No clue, but seems silly to build a giant wall if they could just walk around it. Either way, having a dragon def helped.

5/6/2019 11:14:30 AM

I think Jamie leaving ambiguously is just a common writer's trick to make everyone who thinks/knows he's going to kill his sister second guess that thought

5/6/2019 11:23:12 AM

Quote :

"maybe Aegon didn't suck so much at dragon tactics"

Aegon was known for both his cunning/intelligence and his dragon riding skill. His dragon, Balerion, was much larger as well. Daenerys isn't intelligent or skilled. She's mostly just an entitled brat that lucked into some dragons who she proceeded to waste in stupid ways.

There's also the fact that, in the written material (ASOIAF books + supplemental), dragons are super hard to kill. They have hard scales that deflect arrows and even Scorpions. Hitting a dragon with a scorpion is supposed to be a 1 in a 1000 shot, much less killing them. The idea that you could a dragon three times in a few seconds, while it's moving, from a mile away, is completely ludicrous and goes to show how poor the writing has gotten.

[Edited on May 6, 2019 at 11:37 AM. Reason : ]

5/6/2019 11:34:33 AM

It's now kind of set up to have Danearys become the mad king queen and get killed in battle. I think Sansa will sit on the iron throne and have Jon once again be the Lord of Winterfell.

I agree with others that the writing has become extremely lazy. IMO, the show is popular enough that they could have made season 8 be season 8 and 9. Now they are just spending 5-10 minutes per episode wrapping up every story arc.

5/6/2019 12:07:07 PM

^^Right, I figured that with their scales, pretty much the only way you could kill a dragon with one of those giant arrows is if you hit it in the eye or mouth while roaring. Maybe if it hit the webbed part of the wing, it would pierce it, but even then it would likely just go right through and the wing would have some holes in it until it healed.

Any device that could launch essentially a tree trunk to that distance with that much speed would rock the boat so much that they'd need to wait like 20 mins before firing it again. They reloaded those things in like 5 seconds too. You can't even reload a standard crossbow that quickly. But I guess Euron is a sniper with these things so physics doesn't apply to his ship.

5/6/2019 12:57:22 PM

I can't find it but I think their was some book quote about how shooting a dragon in the mouth doesn't work bc the fire just destroys everything or something

Found it

Quote :

"The eyes were where a dragon was most vulnerable. The eyes, and the brain behind them. Not the underbelly, as certain old tales would have it. The scales there were just as tough as those along a dragon’s back and flanks. And not down the gullet either. That was madness. These would-be dragonslayers might as well try to quench a fire with a spear thrust. “Death comes out of the dragon’s mouth,” Septon Barth had written in his Unnatural History, “but death does not go in that way.”"

[Edited on May 6, 2019 at 1:15 PM. Reason : E]

5/6/2019 1:10:12 PM

^In that case I guess if Dany had been a more experienced dragon rider, she would have just lit up the spears that were flying towards them, then pushed through.



Or, just flown around them from the other side as someone else pointed out.

5/6/2019 2:06:53 PM

Doesn't Tyrion talking about Cersei's baby at the gate basically tell Euron that it's not his?

5/6/2019 2:22:40 PM

^yes, I was expecting them to pan to Euron for a confused look.

Also, how did they know Cercei had Missandei versus drowning?

5/6/2019 2:25:08 PM

Quote :

"So the Night King's entire plan was just to wait north of the wall for however many centuries until a dragon showed up for him to kill/resurrect? I just figured that was more of a convenience for him. Ultimately, wouldn't he be able to just freeze some of the water near the wall and have them walk around it?"

I'm pretty sure the Wall had magic helping it as well. Benjin said the following: “Ancient spells were carved into its foundations. Strong magic to protect men from what lies beyond. And while it stands, the dead cannot pass.”

Pretty sure the NK was just biding his time collecting more and more troops just waiting for an opportunity and landing a dragon was the tool he needed.

I also wondered if him "marking" Bran played a hand in it too since he was on the other side of the wall. Though from the books it sounds like there is a magic horn that can supposedly bring the wall down so I could see that being what works in the book...if he ever writes it.

5/6/2019 2:30:32 PM

Quote :

"why wouldn't Dany simply fly behind the ships and light them up?"

Dany is in a complex place emotionally. She committed her army to fighting the dead to win the support of the north. She has gotten used to everyone loving her, and is starting to realize that westerosi are not as easily swayed as slaves. Even after helping defend winterfell, Jon is getting all the love/credit, and she just learned he has a stronger claim to the throne. That's why she begs Jon to keep his heritage a secret, and then pushes so strongly to keep moving forward to make sure "the plan" doesn't get derailed. She is feeling pretty good about returning to dragonstone and can visualize the final attack on king's landing. She is not scouting while riding the dragons, but laughing and enjoying seeing her dragons flying/healed. It is a shock when the dragon goes down, and it is like one of her children just died. In a rage she circles back to attack euron, but a swarm of arrows is on its way and she avoids a suicide run by turning off (or maybe the dragon did that). Her head isn't on straight then (and isn't really through the rest of the episode), she is mourning the loss of her child and dealing with idea that her plan is falling apart. This feeds into the larger plotline that maybe Dany is not fit to be queen (Varys and Tyrion discuss her state of mind). Up until she came to Westeros, her followers followed her because she was fair and wanted to make the world a better place. Now that she is in Westeros, people are associating her with her family legacy and that she feels entitled to the throne. Tyrion/Varys interpret that her leaving with her dragon is a sign that she cares more about her dragons/self than her soldiers/people. Dany is feeling pretty alone, and even her closest advisors are bailing on her.

Cersei has been busy while Dany has been north, and has been setting up defenses to eliminate the dragon threat. There are a lot of scorpions everywhere. She is also setting the stage that even if Dany wins, she loses the support of the people (which is why she packs the red keep with non-soldiers). Dany/Cersei are playing the same game at the negotiation, neither is giving up the throne, and both want the other to seem like the unreasonable one. If Cersei butchers Dany when she is trying to negotiate, it is likely the people of king's landing will throw her off the throne (they discuss this strategy in winterfell). Cersei wants Dany to attack while Dany's army is not at full strength (half the army is still traveling from winterfell), and kills Missandei to rattle Dany and her army. Angry people make mistakes, and it is likely that Cersei has other traps waiting for Dany.

Cersei is also not in a great place emotionally. She is also feeling alone. Her family's wealth is disappearing, her family has deserted her, and she knows her primary ally in Euron doesn't care for her, only her position (and putting a prince in her belly). If Euron finds out that the baby is not his, he may kill the baby to ensure that his child becomes heir as was promised as payment by Cersei.

Quote :

"half the dothraki and unsullied are still alive?"

I was also surprised by this. It didn't make sense originally to have all the soldiers outside winterfell to guard it during the battle of winterfell, so I am not surprised if some of the dothraki and unsullied remaining inside the castle to defend it. We also saw some of the dothraki come running back from their initial attack, so it's possible that some of them also retreated and couldn't return back to winterfell immediately because they were cut off by the army of the dead. It's not a major plothole, and I am OK with them not showing us everything that happened to the unsullied/dothraki in the battle of winterfell because they were really just fodder for the battle and the interesting parts of the fight were happening elsewhere.

Quote :

"I didn't understand the timing of Jaime's decision to leave"

I am going to chalk this up to Jaime also being in a complex state emotionally. His strength has always been his family, and his actions were always driven by serving those in his family. Now, being left alone in Winterfell, he is restless and doesn't want to face these complex emotions of regret/loneliness/loss-of-purpose (not to mention sleeping with the first woman that wasn't his sister), and decides that action is the best way to escape his own thoughts. He may not even know what he is going to do when he gets back to king's landing, but he knows his place is not waiting in Winterfell. Once he heard that the dragon was killed, he knew that the next battle would be happening quickly, and he decided to leave right then.

5/6/2019 2:32:10 PM

Quote :

"there is a magic horn"

5/6/2019 2:59:25 PM

Beware of the webs. Major plot spoilers have been leaked.

5/6/2019 3:55:27 PM

^link? Id like to know how the writers end it before i waste 3 more hours of my time

5/6/2019 5:54:20 PM

Forbes lurks TWW guys.

Quote :

"Much has been made of the final meeting between Cersei and Qyburn on the one side, and Tyrion and Daenerys on the other. Cersei kills Missandei but lets her rival queen live? She lets the brother she paid Bronn to kill live? Why? She could have had him shot then and there and it would have been perfectly in keeping with her ruthless personality. She could have had her ballistae fired on Daenerys and her Unsullied, then sent out riders to mop up the survivors."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2019/05/06/the-10-biggest-problems-with-last-nights-game-of-thrones-other-than-that-starbucks-cup/#220ccf054b42

[Edited on May 7, 2019 at 1:04 AM. Reason : /]

5/7/2019 1:04:38 AM

Couple other things that have been bugging me about this episode:
- Why did they decide to leave the big Jon Snow is Aegon Targaryen reveal to his family off camera? This is such a big revelation for the show and seeing the reactions of Sansa, Arya and even Jon (since we don't truly know what his thoughts are on being the true heir to the throne us) is a huge part of the show

- I can't believe Jon didn't even hug Ghost goodbye. Fuck man. I know the show went off the rails from the books, but Jon and Ghost were so interconnected I can't believe he would be so dismissive of him being sent north of the wall. They could've cut out 15 seconds of irrelevant shit to show him thanking Ghost for being the best dog/direwolf/friend.

[Edited on May 7, 2019 at 7:11 AM. Reason : Dgb]

5/7/2019 7:08:18 AM

Haha yeah, I felt the same way with the Ghost thing. He literally just got done hugging and telling Sam he’s the best friend he’s ever had, then just looks over at Ghost and barely gives him a nod, as if to say “farewell casual acquaintance”

5/7/2019 7:27:04 AM

it isn't a dog, it is a wolf, and a big wolf.

has he ever been affectionate (petting) with ghost? I was fine with the head nod.

5/7/2019 8:32:41 AM

What a silly distinction. Jon hasnt been affectionate with Ghost bc the show won't spend the money on the cgi, not bc it's "a wolf".

5/7/2019 9:04:21 AM

lol I know right, just pet the damn dog. That direwolf has been with him since before he left Winterfell to join the Night's Watch. He's been his loyal companion for every single battle he has ever fought in. He lost an ear for him and he doesn't even tell him that he was a good boye.

5/7/2019 9:28:38 AM

That episode was basically 100% trash.

5/7/2019 10:15:55 AM

Writing this season lacks creativity and has, frankly, been lazy.

5/7/2019 11:06:55 AM

pretty much. They were given such a rich story to work with and should have had lots of opportunities to finish it on their own in a way that felt consistent with the books even if it was a little stripped down for TV.

Instead, they took a story that was largely popular because it was such the opposite of a 'hollywood' story with forced big deaths and heavy handed 'setups' of power struggles and ridiculous plot armor etc. and then when they were forced to fall back on their own writing chops they default to all those tropes anyway. Makes zero sense. You've already got the audience hooked, you shouldn't be scared to be killing people off or not providing true send offs for people.

I saw this coming last season though already as that was a noticeable step down in writing quality. oh well.

#bitter

[Edited on May 7, 2019 at 11:28 AM. Reason : ]

5/7/2019 11:28:00 AM

The only app series I've ever seen remotely conclude well was Breaking Bad.

5/7/2019 12:06:19 PM

i mean i lived through the ending of LOST so i think this is fine

5/7/2019 12:40:03 PM

^^app series? What's an app series?

5/7/2019 12:49:20 PM

So after episode 3...the producers stated we saw, "essentislly the wiping out of the dothraki" after their dumbass charge.

Fast forward one whole episode to where theyre at the war room table and the dothraki leader only takes away half the pieces that represent his forces(seemed like everyone had "half"...somehow).

5/7/2019 9:36:56 PM

Quote :

"Director David Nutter says CGI prevented Jon Snow from giving Ghost a proper goodbye — ‘Since the direwolves are kind of CG creations, we felt it best to keep it as simple as possible … It played out much more powerfully that way.’"

Smfh how embarrassing

5/7/2019 10:02:59 PM

^^ never quite see exactly how many he takes off the map. looks like he took whatever was left of them off of the map.

there are plenty of reasons to eye roll @ at everyone involved, but I don’t think this is one of them

5/7/2019 10:37:27 PM

Of course it is. First, even if they just mean "half of everybody" thats absurd, the castle was overrun. If you tell me there is more thaby10% left, its ridiculous. Second, there are 8 Dothraki triangles (rows of 1,3 and 4), he only removes ONE row, the row of 4, that's half. Finally, they later say "the bulk of the dothraki and unsullied", if there were hardly any dothraki you wouldn't say it that way ever. They also show 4 triangles again.

5/7/2019 11:10:38 PM

Do you really think a crew of people who admitted that they didn't notice something as blatant as A COFFEE CUP ON SCREEN would be smart enough to notice how many dothraki lived or died?!

I'm so fucking disappointed with this season. I honestly thought concluding this show was foolproof for the writers. Man I was wrong

5/7/2019 11:21:53 PM

^^ didn’t notice that they were the triangles

oh well

5/7/2019 11:34:48 PM

ya'll some whiny bitches

the whole point of that scene in the war room was to show that dany didn't have the superior numbers any more, and that they should consider other strategies than just storming king's landing. The scene showed that Dany needs the support of westerosi and can't rely solely on unsullied/dothraki/dragons. However the westerosi aren't 100% behind her like the dothraki/unsullied, and the sole driver for them continuing to march to king's landing is jon's word and bent knee (which dany is worried isn't enough any more). Before the battle at winterfell, Cersei didn't seem like a threat to Dany. Now she is.

they didn't bust out an excel spreadsheet to run statistical analyses, the exact numbers don't matter. Dany wants to press on regardless of the state of her army. Arya/Sansa don't trust Dany and don't see the benefit in marching south. The northmen just want to separate entirely from the seven kingdoms and rule themselves. The vale came with Baelish, and now he is gone. Dany isn't taking the time to win people to her cause, and it is showing by how the support around her is deteriorating.

The battle with Cersei is more interesting now. There is conflict between Dany/Jon/Tyrion/Varys. Who knows how this will play out, and it is going to make it an interesting final two episodes. Stop focusing on details that don't matter in the long run.

but Jon didn't even pat Ghost on the head when he said goodbye!!!

5/7/2019 11:53:50 PM

Details that dont matter? The fact that the fucking producer of the show said the dothraki were gone and then one episode later we find out that somehow only half of them were gone doesnt matter? You are exactly the type of person the writers are trying to satisfy. The type that doesnt use their brain and just wants to see the most surprising thing happen eith the most drama even if it makes no fucking sense at all. Sounds like my wife and her friends

5/8/2019 12:20:07 AM

to be fair, i could see describing a decimated, yet not completely destroyed, portion of the army as "gone"



especially when they were FORTY THOUSAND DOTHRAKI SCREAMERS

[Edited on May 8, 2019 at 1:45 AM. Reason :  ]

5/8/2019 1:44:48 AM

^^^that's a good point. But now it seems like Dany is too weak so next ep they should say "oh turns out the other two dragons are alive again" to even it back out. After all, it's pretty silly to expect the events of one episode to carry over to the next.

And you're right it's silly to expect Jon, a person constantly in a glass cage of emotion, doesn't really care that much about his pet for 8 years that he raised from a pup and was his constant, loyal companion.

Glad we have a voice of reason here

5/8/2019 7:05:24 AM

WTF!!1 I NEED TO KNOW EXACTLY HOW MANY DOTHRAKI THERE ARE, RIGHT NOW!!

FUCK! ITS DIFFERENT THAN I EXPECTED!



Sounds like I would enjoy watching the show with your wife. You, on the other hand, seem to be miserable the whole time.

5/8/2019 8:31:29 AM

I know, sucks to be at least semi intelligent enough to recognize bad stuff is bad.

5/8/2019 9:15:23 AM

Defending Season 8 at this point is just unnecessary.

I'm guessing there is a reason GRRM is struggling to write the books, it's because it's going to be hard to wrap all of this up. The problem with this Season is that they've amassed too many loose ends to wrap up in 6 episodes and instead of trying to pace it with little more finesse, they've ham-fisted everything to the viewers with terrible plot armor, deus ex resolutions, and lack of attention to detail. The thing that made this world that GRRM created so amazing is the lack of plot armor and the ATTENTION TO DETAIL and how well thought out so many of the elements are. Imagine the Red Wedding where no one of note dies and only like 2 people with names actually die...that is what the Battle of Winterfell was, it was a gigantic missed opportunity that doesn't fit the style/MO of this series.

I see both sides of the coin. From a pure entertainment/satisfaction approach, sure, I could see casual fans of the show/series enjoying what they're seeing, particularly because none of the fan favorites are dead yet. From the fans of the books and even just big fans of the show that love the intricacies and details, I don't see how they could possibly enjoy what is happening with this season.

I've never read a single book. But at this point, if GRRM ever actually finishes the series, I'm going to buy and read every single book, just so I can see how it's actually supposed to end because I know it'll be better/deeper/more intricate than what we're seeing on screen this season.

5/8/2019 9:45:25 AM

Sorry but this season has just been bad. These are not overblown things. It's a result of consistently lazy writing with very little concern for whether it makes sense for a character or in context of the world that existed in the rest of the seasons.

Call it whiny if you want, but there are plenty of reasons they're blowing it this season (plenty last season too).

5/8/2019 9:49:18 AM