^^(I don’t know shit about Michigan state tbh I was just making up an example)

3/5/2021 11:06:26 AM

Quote :

"Dave Doeren is going to be so confused when he comes on here to check his credibility."

3/5/2021 11:20:41 AM

^^oh i don't either

3/5/2021 3:06:54 PM

Lol

3/5/2021 3:40:24 PM

Word has it Fowler had Calipari ride up and down the escalators in the RBC center while loudly commenting, "Escalators! We must be in a pretty big building, huh?" before going dutch on cup of goodberry's.

[Edited on March 5, 2021 at 5:04 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2021 5:01:20 PM

2-year contract extension, increases his salary from $3.25M/year to $3.5M/year

4/11/2021 1:34:30 PM

Dave is meh. Beats who is supposed to and loses to better teams. We could certainly do worse.

I just think it's funny he seemingly has great security when his record is basically the same as CTC and TOB.

4/14/2021 2:06:05 PM

W/L record without context doesn’t mean but so much. Program trajectory and stability are key factors for context.

4/14/2021 4:55:47 PM

Never run the wildcat. Just fucking stop it.

9/11/2021 7:23:41 PM

I'm fine with some Wildcat plays, but no jump passes by the halfback

9/11/2021 7:28:34 PM

Taking the ball out of your QBs hands in the red zone seems silly to me. Seems like you’d want your QB taking the snap, not anybody else. It does work sometimes. I just don’t like it

9/11/2021 7:39:43 PM

This game was just depressing and awful to watch. I don’t know what to think of Dave. Just when you are ready to get rid of him he will do something good, and when you are feeling good about him he has games like this.

9/11/2021 11:46:12 PM

Quote :

"W/L record without context doesn’t mean but so much. Program trajectory and stability are key factors for context."

So? You think Dave is better than Chuck or TOB? The numbers don't lie. He isn't.

He's never going to win anything big. We might still pull a 8-4 season this year and beat some American Conference team in the St Petes Bowl. With his "best team" at State. This is the ceiling folks.

9/12/2021 12:06:53 AM

8-4 is the ceiling for a team that hasn't won a conference title in over 40 years? NO WAY!!!!

9/12/2021 12:15:46 AM

^^^sounds like last coach of dallas cowboys

[Edited on September 12, 2021 at 12:21 AM. Reason : ^totally agree. We are not a basketball school either, give it up]

9/12/2021 12:20:48 AM

I'll say this, Dave is NOT fancy like Applebee's

9/12/2021 1:54:08 AM

^^^^ what numbers show that DD is worse than Chuck or TOB? We were out coached. I’m disappointed as hell. I’m not gonna make a case for DD being a great coach this morning. I don’t think I’ve ever really made that argument. I thin I DD is fine. Also that post you quoted was from April lol

[Edited on September 12, 2021 at 7:36 AM. Reason : A]

9/12/2021 7:34:15 AM

What's his best win? I'm not asking in a challenging way, I'm genuinely curious as to what people think is his best win. Maybe Liberty last year?

Here's his three wins against ranked teams, their ranking at the time, and how they finished the season:
2017: #11 FSU. Won 27-21. FSU finished the season 7-6.
2017: #17 Louisville. Won 39-25. Louisville finished the season 8-5.
2020: #24 Pitt. Won 30-29. Pitt finished the season 6-5.

8-4 probably is the absolute best that any NCSU fan could ever hope for but I kind of miss the days where the team could pull off a surprise big win. Like the 2012 win over #3 FSU, and FSU finished the season 12-2. Those days feel long gone.

This is his 9th year. He has a 42% conference record (a few percentage points lower than where CTC and TOB fisnished). He's had a fair opportunity. We could attain our ceiling with Doeren provided we get favorable schedules that have us playing mostly teams that finish their seasons under .500 or we can attain our ceiling with someone else. Or not. Whatever.

9/12/2021 10:50:18 AM

Let me see if I can go back a couple pages and copy and paste the posts from when this exact same argument happened last

9/12/2021 11:29:57 AM

Best win is the Louisville win by far imo.

I’d argue the conference is a little tougher now than it was under TOB. The unfortunate part is this year the conference looks particularly down and wide open. And we don’t appear ready to capitalize on that. Granted, we’ve not played a conference game yet. But last night didn’t inspire confidence

9/12/2021 11:31:10 AM

HIRE Chuck

At least he’s not religiously opposed to rushing the QB

9/12/2021 12:47:33 PM

He's worse than Chuck for sure, who had a higher ceiling

He's pretty much the same guy as TOB but younger and runs a more stable program. Think the real play with Doeren is to let him recruit and build up a good roster then fire him for a sexy young OC and hope you made the right hire and get a Conference Title or an Orange Bowl out of him before he bolts for the NFL or SEC

9/12/2021 4:42:44 PM

I dunno. Are we misremembering the Chuck years? The peak of Chuck was so much fun. But his best season was 5-3 in the acc. He had a winning conference record once.

If we move on from DD, I won’t lose sleep at all. But I’d also expect a lotta transfers and decommits (as you get with a lotta coaching changes) so I’m not sure how realistic that scenario is. It’s hard to count on much roster continuity after a coaching change.

9/12/2021 5:34:13 PM

Quote :

"I’d argue the conference is a little tougher now than it was under TOB."

Eh idk FSU just lost to a FCS team. TOB was against Jimbo.

Mack has UNC improved albeit still overrated he's 17-12 there, but Duke is back to shit, Louisville and GTech are bad. Clawson has done well. Clemson is Clemson.

ACC looks like complete ass right now. Pitt has been the only saving grace two weeks in.

[Edited on September 12, 2021 at 7:21 PM. Reason : forgot Syracuse lost to fucking Rutgers. We're embarrassingly bad now. ]

9/12/2021 7:20:05 PM

Which is why I said in the exact same sentence that the conference looks particularly down this year. FSU wasn’t peak FSU while TOB was. Here Atlantic was wide open for most of his tenure (2007-2012).

Quote :

" TOB was against Jimbo."

DD was against Jimbo when Jimbo was actually winning at FSU


Real quick year by year records of the Coastal and Atlantic winners…

2007 - VT 10-2 (7-1), BC 10-2 (6-2)
2008 - VT 8-4 (5-3), BC 9-3 (5-3)
2009 - GT 10-2 (7-1), Clemson 8-4 (6-2)
2010 - VT 10-2 (8-0), FSU 9-3 (6-2)
2011 - VT 11-1 (7-1), Clemson 9-3 (6-2)
2012 - GT 6-6 (5-3), FSU 10-2 (7-1)
——————————————————————
2013 - Duke 10-2 (6-2), FSU 12-0 (8-0)
2014 - GT 10-2 (6-2), FSU 12-0 (8-0)
2015 - UNC 11-1 (8-0), Clemson 12-0, (8-0)
2016 - VT 9-3 (6-2), Clemson 11-1 (7-1)
2017 - Miami 10-1 (7-1), Clemson 11-1 (7-1)
2018 - Pitt 7-5 (6-2), Clemson 12-0 (8-0)
2019 - UVa 9-3 (6-2), Clemson 12-0 (8-0)
2020 * No divisions but * - ND 10-0 (9-0), Clemson 9-1 (8-1)

TOB was in a weak ACC. There was no elite team in the division until his last year. VT was the closest thing to an elite team in the conference but they were never a legit national title contender. DD has had a legit national title contender in the division every single year. He’s also had Lamar Jackson, a Heisman winner in the division. Don’t think TOB faced a Heisman winner in the ACC…DD had at least 4 years of heisman winners. And that doesn’t even include Trevor Lawrence.

We could’ve and shouldve at least won the division under TOB because it was down but we missed our chance. There hasn’t been much of a window at all for DD except for 2017 and very likely this 2021 season. And even 2017 would’ve required the best season in school history for us to beat Clemson and win the division.

[Edited on September 12, 2021 at 8:04 PM. Reason : You’re talking about this year I’m talking their entire careers here ]

[Edited on September 12, 2021 at 8:06 PM. Reason : A]

9/12/2021 8:03:45 PM

Quote :

"You’re talking about this year I’m talking their entire careers here"

Still just don't see it. Clemson being a national title contender doesn't make the league better. TOB was 22-26. Dave is 28-38. His ACC win % is lower even with more time and got to play a super easy league schedule last year allowing him to go 7-3.

Subbing Maryland for Syracuse has been a dud. Cuse is terrible.

The league has possibly never been worse, so the window you talk about is there this year. GTech, FSU, Louisville, Syracuse are at some of the lowest points in school history.

9/13/2021 12:30:52 AM

Yeah, DD has undoubtedly coached in the toughest era of the ACC ever. Chuck/TOB had it much, much easier in conference.

9/13/2021 1:06:39 AM

^^ I 100% agree with you that the window is there for us this year.

But if we can’t agree that DD is coaching in a more difficult era in the conference then neither of us will change each other’s minds. By the way, we swapped MD for UL not Cuse. Cuse and MD had a year of overlap in the ACC.

TOB could’ve won the division with a 5-3 record. DD has never had such a luxury.

9/13/2021 6:32:07 AM

He is painfully awful against power 5 conference teams on road. This MSU team will be lucky to win 2 games in the SEC this year.

However, I don't see us getting a coach that will change anything. We are not going to get the up and coming coordinator ready for the HC challenge. We just don't have the prestige or name recognition. See how its worked for FSU, even they can't find the right coach and they have won mulitple National Titles. DD is who he is a middle of the road coach who is in the division with Clemson, we are never going to contend for an ACC title as long as Dabo is Clemson's coach. We also don't have the money to buy him out and hire a competent coach. Just stop giving him extensions for a 9 win season, unless he wins a title.

9/13/2021 8:04:39 AM

Quote :

" Just stop giving him extensions for a 9 win season, unless he wins a title."

Sign me up for 9 win seasons every year. That’s worthy of an extension at State.

9/13/2021 8:11:04 AM

Ill take 9 win seasons all god damn day. every year.

9/13/2021 9:02:08 AM

PETE SHINNICK

9/13/2021 6:21:01 PM

I don't recall packboozie posting after the 45-0 win over USF. But he definitely showed up after a loss.

9/13/2021 8:57:54 PM

LOL we beat a team that went 1-8 last year.

The only thing I'm arguing here is that Dave shouldn't have the security he does when he is no better than CTC or TOB.

9/13/2021 11:27:18 PM

The fan base jumps all over him after every loss. I don’t think he has a ton of security. I don’t feel like he’s actively on the hot seat right now but if this team goes 6-6 I wouldn’t at all be surprised if he’s fired.

9/14/2021 6:34:03 AM

Late to the party, but I think DD's best win was his 2016 win over UNC.

I can't find the article, but I swear the SBNation NC State page had an article a year or two back that compared DD's tenure to TOB's time at NC State and basically came away with:
- DD coaches in a tougher conference
- TOB averaged a game every two years where he beats teams he shouldn't (FSU a couple of times, Clemson, etc.), but he also has a WTF loss every year
- DD has a much better record against teams he's favored against, but also rarely pulls off the upset

I'm surprised DD's conference win% is lower then TOB or CA's...

9/16/2021 9:16:41 AM

Louisville with Lamar was DD biggest win. He just cant upset anyone anymore, and State has always relied on beating someone we shouldn't. DD has yet to do that.

9/16/2021 10:35:49 AM

I concur with Lamar Jackson's LU being his biggest win.

We need to stop giving DD contract extensions. Let his contract run out and groom his replacement.

9/16/2021 5:48:27 PM

Letting his contract run out is an excellent way to guarantee we'll never get a recruit ever again

9/16/2021 5:51:57 PM

Lmao i love when people say let his contract run out

9/16/2021 7:13:34 PM

He will basically always have 3-4 years minimum on his contract. Gotta be able to recruit (ie, “I’m not going anywhere, come to State and I’ll be here all 4 years that you’re here”). Gotta be able to maintain a competent staff. What assistant coach wants to stay on a lame duck’s staff? letting a contract just expire on a head coach is pretty much unheard of for a P5 coach.

Contract extensions also aren’t just a way to give a coach a bigger salary and more years. You can add more money for assistants, lower or raise buyout amounts and terms. And all sorts of stuff. It’s not always that a new contract = unwavering support for the coach.

[Edited on September 16, 2021 at 7:34 PM. Reason : Areaeddnhdhdjs]

9/16/2021 7:31:47 PM

My bad.

Restructure his contract to lower his firing payout down the road. Fire him in 2023 and try to let a better coach get quality wins out of his recruits.

9/16/2021 9:13:39 PM

Quote :

"Still just don't see it. Clemson being a national title contender doesn't make the league better"

yeah but it does make winning the division much harder. TOB shouldve won a division with Russ (I believe we actually would have if he had beaten Maryland in the Torrey Smith game?), it's hard to really see a year we *should* have won one under Dave. This is probably our best shot, honestly.

9/16/2021 9:34:03 PM

Giving out extensions for above average seasons just means above average coaches everywhere will get overpaid

It's not usually worth it to give extensions unless he's only got a year or two left, or you know other programs are trying to poach him away

[Edited on September 16, 2021 at 9:35 PM. Reason : .]

9/16/2021 9:34:21 PM

Pretty much every p5 coach has 3+ years on their contract at all times

9/16/2021 11:16:33 PM

I’m pretty sure he is currently winning this season at 55-24

9/17/2021 7:36:48 AM

Quote :

" Restructure his contract to lower his firing payout down the road. Fire him in 2023 and try to let a better coach get quality wins out of his recruits."

If you want DD fired, that’s really fine and I won’t argue too much with you even if I disagree. I think the reality we’d face is - fire DD, lose essentially an entire recruiting class and several players to transfer immediately. Then rebuild, and hope to be back at an 8 win level in 2 years after DD’s firing. That by itself doesn’t make firing a coach always the wrong decision. But I think it needs to be accounted for. Especially with the new early signing period. Most recruiting classes are 90%+ complete by December. You aren’t going to be hiring a coach until December or January. So that coach will have most of that current class getting released from their NLI. The new coach will have basically no time to build a recruiting class that current year. And will be severely behind on the following year’s recruiting. It’s unfair to say you lose 2 full recruiting classes when bringing in a new coach but saying you lose 1.5 classes might be more accurate unless you’re at a big time school that recruits itself.

Sometimes firing a coach is very obviously the right move to make. But when you fire a coach that’s winning 7 - 8 games a year (basically par for the course at State) you’re banking on a one step backward and two steps forward kind of transition. And that’s not a given at all. I don’t mean to say that it’s always a waste of time to fire coaches. But given who we are as a program and our history, I think you kinda need a pretty good reason to fire a coach because of the likely impending 1-2 year rebuild just to get back to where we were before we fired him.

Quote :

" Giving out extensions for above average seasons just means above average coaches everywhere will get overpaid It's not usually worth it to give extensions unless he's only got a year or two left, or you know other programs are trying to poach him away"

In any regular profession, I’d agree with you. But that’s just not how it works in college sports. I agree that coaching contracts seem out of control and ridiculous for merely average results. But that’s the reality we live in. We kinda have to play by those terms. If you’re a P5 program looking to hire a coach, it’s probably going to cost $2.5-3M+/year for just an average coach with any experience. If you wanna attract big names it’ll most likely take double that. It’s all silly and the numbers just keep getting bigger. But that’s the reality right now. I don’t see anything changing it anytime soon.

Edit to say: CFB is such a money maker that I don’t agree that they are overpaid. They get paid insane money. But for what the programs generate, I don’t think it’s fair to say that coaches are getting overpaid. Now, compared to what players get (basically nothing), I would agree but that’s sort of a different argument altogether

[Edited on September 17, 2021 at 8:12 AM. Reason : A]

9/17/2021 7:51:46 AM

Quote :

" If you want DD fired, that’s really fine and I won’t argue too much with you even if I disagree."

Thank you for respecting my opinion.

9/18/2021 5:46:25 PM

I don't see any point in firing Doeren unless he starts routinely turning in sub 500 seasons. He has established a better "culture" than any of his predecessors and his team isn't full of hooligans who do stupid stuff on our off the field. I am perfectly content with what he's done and what he's doing, even if his ceiling is 9 wins

9/18/2021 6:04:34 PM

Y'all really ain't revived this yet?

Big win for Dave. Easily his best ever. Granted Clemson is over-ranked and their offense is not good, and we had some questionable play calling ourselves, but being the first team to score on Clemson shouldn't be overlook

9/26/2021 12:15:47 PM