the slippery slope does exist

this is fucking madness

also, comparing this to racial equality is completely asinine. if for no other reason, it's possible to hide the fact that you're gay/trans/yada yada. you can't hide being black.

not surprised to see adultswim doing it, though

[Edited on June 24, 2013 at 11:41 PM. Reason : .]

6/24/2013 11:37:30 PM

Yep. And that slope is gonna be putting naked boys and girls together in the same locker room, at which point one of the girls feels threatened by an otherwise innocuous act, tells her boyfriend about it, and the boyfriend and his buddies get together after school and beat the shit out of this kid. but hey, at least we won the right to further confuse the kid instead of teaching the kid at a very young age how to cope with being different, right? yaaaaaaaaaaay!

6/24/2013 11:39:09 PM

Quote :

"If only there were a compelling interest in keeping whites and blacks separated in the bathroom, you might have a point."

oh such as that transgendered people might try to rape their classmates?

kind of like black folks raping all the white women

6/24/2013 11:39:38 PM

there aren't enough s for a statement that stupid.
^^^ exactly. When you don't have an actual argument, just bring up race. works every time.

6/24/2013 11:40:37 PM

Quote :

"at least we won the right to further confuse the kid"

we've been through this already, burro. many transgendered people knew what gender they belonged to from very young age. you might as well be saying gay people are confused.

6/24/2013 11:41:20 PM

^^^, ^^

[Edited on June 24, 2013 at 11:42 PM. Reason : : /]

6/24/2013 11:41:53 PM

and we've already been through it that it would be better for the kid to learn basic coping skills at a young age as opposed to setting themselves up to be a natural target at a young age instead. but hey, we'll just give the kid a participation trophy and all will be good, until he/she/it/FSM is lying a puddle iof blood after gym class one day

6/24/2013 11:43:19 PM

you seem to be very confident about your "coping skills" theory. how would that work?

Quote :

" it's possible to hide the fact that you're gay/trans/yada yada"

why should anyone need to hide these things?

[Edited on June 24, 2013 at 11:52 PM. Reason : .]

6/24/2013 11:49:25 PM

change that to be "it's not as immediately obvious that you're gay/trans/yada yada" and it has the same meaning. don't be obtuse.


As for coping skills, it's really easy: learn from a young age how to deal with discomfort and it sets you up to be better able to handle it in the future for bigger things. Or, force them to hit that head on with no previous experience to draw from and watch them struggle more than they otherwise would have. This aint rocket science, man.

6/24/2013 11:59:54 PM

^^to avoid being discriminated against, you fucking tard

liberalism: where fantasy...meets policy!

[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 12:02 AM. Reason : .]

6/25/2013 12:01:48 AM

Quote :

"change that to be "it's not as immediately obvious that you're gay/trans/yada yada" and it has the same meaning. don't be obtuse."

i'm not being obtuse. if you're gay or trans, you shouldn't need to hide it. actually it can be pretty clear if someone is gay. it is especially clear if you put someone who appears to be a girl in the boys bathroom.

Quote :

"to avoid being discriminated against, you fucking tard"

what you're saying is that people should hide parts of themselves that might cause them to be ridiculed? that's some weak garbage.

[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 12:07 AM. Reason : .]

6/25/2013 12:06:40 AM

I don't agree with him, but even I don't think you should have to hide who you are to avoid discrimination... Kind of defeats the point, if you ask me.

6/25/2013 12:06:54 AM

Quote :

"what you're saying is that people should hide parts of themselves that might cause them to be ridiculed? that's some weak garbage"

this is right up there with "we should be ashamed that any child in the world ever goes to bed hungry at night!" both are nice, idealistic things to say, but are completely implausible.

SHOULD someone have to hide who they are to be treated fairly? ideally, of course not. but it's human nature to ridicule/judge/discriminate against those who are different. just because you think it's not right doesn't mean the world is automatically going to agree. do LGBT people have the option of concealing it, or merely not pointing it out, to avoid discrimination? yes, and it's their choice. do people suffering racial discrimination have the same luxury? no.

don't get me wrong, i don't think we should treat anyone like shit as a society. but you also have to inject realism into your viewpoints and policies, rather than constantly being guided by what you think things would be like in a perfect world.

[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 12:22 AM. Reason : .]

6/25/2013 12:15:14 AM

If I had a middle school girl I sure as hell wouldn't want her showering with a male after gym class.

[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 12:21 AM. Reason : or high school]

6/25/2013 12:18:51 AM

you're just a hateful racist for thinking like that. how dare we consider how our actions make every other person in the world feel. we should focus instead on this one precious little flower!

6/25/2013 12:21:48 AM

Quote :

"As for coping skills, it's really easy: learn from a young age how to deal with discomfort and it sets you up to be better able to handle it in the future for bigger things. Or, force them to hit that head on with no previous experience to draw from and watch them struggle more than they otherwise would have. This aint rocket science, man."

i don't think that's as easy as you think it is. kids who feel secluded are at extreme risk to develop mental issues. a kid who sees herself as a girl should be treated as a girl. if you separate her from the rest of the girls, that's ostracization.

Quote :

"just because you think it's not right doesn't mean the world is automatically going to agree."

i am far from an idealist. i realize things don't change overnight, but things would never change if minorities didn't stand up for themselves.

Quote :

"how dare we consider how our actions make every other person in the world feel"

it's unfortunate that human progress makes so many people uncomfortable, but it's necessary.

[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 12:24 AM. Reason : .]

6/25/2013 12:22:55 AM

Quote :

"i am far from an idealist."

CITATION NEEDED

6/25/2013 12:26:56 AM

A lot of people upset about pee-pees and hoo-hoos in this thread.

Quote :

"If I had a middle school girl I sure as hell wouldn't want her showering with a male after gym class."

Oh don't worry. She'll come face to face with plenty more penises prior to that.

Reminds me of a story. Once upon a time at the beach when I was a little boy, I noticed a little girl running around with no pants on and I may have seen her vagina. I then went on with my life. The end.

[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 6:48 AM. Reason : .]

6/25/2013 6:39:03 AM

"Civil society only works if the sexes are rigidly separated both bodily and in the social roles they're encouraged to fill. Also gender equals sex." - American conservatives, the Taliban

6/25/2013 8:03:44 AM

I'm incredibly surprised to see mistergreen and aaronburro so prominently displaying their membership in the moron club. It's like they don't even care that they're idiots.

6/25/2013 10:52:26 AM

that's been aaronburro's shtick for literally years.

6/25/2013 3:07:07 PM

^^sick burn! i'm so crestfallen, i may never even post again!

go make up some more "facts" and come join the adults when you actually have something to say.

Quote :

""Civil society only works if the sexes are rigidly separated both bodily and in the social roles they're encouraged to fill. Also gender equals sex." - American conservatives, the Taliban"

on behalf of all conservatives, however, I will encourage Str8Foolish to keep posting. He does more to make his own kind look bad than anyone on the other side of the aisle ever could.

[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 4:02 PM. Reason : .]

6/25/2013 3:58:31 PM

are there any conservatives that understand humor

6/25/2013 4:34:47 PM

Quote :

"Oh don't worry. She'll come face to face with plenty more penises prior to that. Reminds me of a story. Once upon a time at the beach when I was a little boy, I noticed a little girl running around with no pants on and I may have seen her vagina. I then went on with my life. The end. "

I guess you're right. Although if there are any sexual harassment issues they would have to install a camera in the showers.

But no big deal, having random adults watching showering teens isn't a problem, because there is nothing shameful about genitals.

EDIT: before you mention it, there is nothing shameful about them, but that doesn't mean people want to share a shower with others of the opposite sex.

[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 6:13 PM. Reason : ]

6/25/2013 6:11:01 PM

if the worst thing a kid has to endure is having a kid of the opposite sex in their bathroom or locker room, then he or she is probably in pretty good shape

6/25/2013 6:34:20 PM

Doesn't that support the argument of not accommodating the kid?

6/25/2013 6:46:54 PM

This is a 6 year old we're talking about, right? There are no sexual motivations. This kid isn't doing it to get some sexual kick out of it. You do all know that this kid is just going to grow up like any other girl and that all of her classmates will be used to it by the time they start hitting puberty and it really won't be a big deal at all.

6/25/2013 6:47:34 PM

Quote :

"if the worst thing a kid has to endure is having a kid of the opposite sex in their bathroom or locker room, then he or she is probably in pretty good shape "

Having the government see who I call and when isn't the worst thing I have to endure, so we should just forget about it.

6/25/2013 6:59:01 PM

where did i say we should just forget about it?

privatize education and this isn't an issue

6/25/2013 7:03:05 PM

Quote :

"if the worst thing a kid has to endure is having a kid of the opposite sexfeeling uncomfortable in their bathroom or locker room, then he or she is probably in pretty good shape"

6/25/2013 8:21:47 PM

Quote :

"Doesn't that support the argument of not accommodating the kid?"

It depends on how you look at it. Ostracizing her from her perceived social group is much more damaging than a little kid seeing another little kids weiner.

Quote :

"I guess you're right. Although if there are any sexual harassment issues they would have to install a camera in the showers. But no big deal, having random adults watching showering teens isn't a problem, because there is nothing shameful about genitals."

that's definitely the craziest strawman i've seen in a while. if there are any sexual harassment issues, you remove the sexual harasser.

adults watching teenagers in the shower is not the same as teenagers seeing other teenagers in the shower.

[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 10:34 PM. Reason : .]

6/25/2013 10:33:09 PM

How is it a strawman? If we remove all sexual connotations from nudity and genitalia then privacy in the showers is no more important than privacy in the classroom or hallways.

But if you are willing to admit that there may be some sexual connotation to nudity then you should also acknowledge that some people may not be comfortable showering with someone of the opposite sex, and to force them to do so in the interest of one child's gender identity is at the very least not a net gain for society.

Quote :

"This is a 6 year old we're talking about, right? There are no sexual motivations. This kid isn't doing it to get some sexual kick out of it. You do all know that this kid is just going to grow up like any other girl and that all of her classmates will be used to it by the time they start hitting puberty and it really won't be a big deal at all."

Even assuming the kids this child goes to school with now come to accept it as no big deal, you're assuming that this is a small county where everyone from one elementary school goes to the same middle school and then the same high school.


[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 11:09 PM. Reason : ]

6/25/2013 11:06:36 PM

Quote :

"How is it a strawman? If we remove all sexual connotations from nudity and genitalia then privacy in the showers is no more important than privacy in the classroom or hallways. But if you are willing to admit that there may be some sexual connotation to nudity then you should also acknowledge that some people may not be comfortable showering with someone of the opposite sex, and to force them to do so in the interest of one child's gender identity is at the very least not a net gain for society."

Adults viewing (and potentially sexualizing) naked teenagers is different than teenagers viewing (and potentially sexualizing) naked teenagers. The difference being ONE IS PEDOPHILIA. fuck's sake, dude.

And who said anything about removing sexual connotations? If that's your issue, you should be way more worried about lesbians. Transgenders are most often into dudes.

[Edited on June 25, 2013 at 11:43 PM. Reason : mtf ones i mean]

6/25/2013 11:31:54 PM

Quote :

"Transgenders are most often into dudes."

I would have thought they were most often into chicks, and that this was especially true of trans women, but I'll crunch the numbers of the 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey from the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the National Center for Transgender Equality: http://www.thetaskforce.org/downloads/reports/reports/ntds_full.pdf

(page 16)
all respondents were transgender, 60% born male, 40% born female

26% were trans men, 41% trans women, 20% bigender (part-time alternating between male and female identities), 13% had a gender identity other than male or female ("third gender")

(page 18)
overall, 21% were gay or lesbian (attracted to the same gender), 23% were bisexual, 20% were otherwise queer, 21% were heterosexual (slightly more respondents than gay or lesbian, 1341 vs. 1326 out of 6368), 4% were asexual, and 11% had another term for their sexual orientation

(page 25)
of the respondents currently identifying as male, 20% were born male, 80% born female
of the respondents currently identifying as female, 87% were born male, 13% born female
of the respondents currently identifying as gender nonconforming (either bigender or third gender), 61% were born male, 39% born female

using the "analytic gender identity/expression" categories, 47% of respondents were trans women, 28% were trans men, 11% were crossdressing men, 3% were crossdressing women, 3% were born male and are gender nonconforming, and 9% were born female and are gender nonconforming

(page 28)
excluding crossdressers, 23% were gay or lesbian, 25% bisexual, 23% otherwise queer, 23% heterosexual, 4% asexual, and 2% had some other term

(page 29)
29% of trans women were lesbian, 31% bisexual, 7% otherwise queer, 23% heterosexual, 7% asexual, 2% other

13% of trans men were gay, 13% bisexual, 46% otherwise queer, 25% heterosexual, 2% asexual, 2% other

33% of gender nonconforming respondents were gay or lesbian, 13% bisexual, 45% otherwise queer, 4% heterosexual, 3% asexual, 3% other

(page 174)
44% of crossdressing men were heterosexual, 38% bisexual, 9% gay, 3% otherwise queer, 3% asexual, 2% other
------------------------------------------------------



So what conclusions can you make about whether "Transgenders are most often into dudes"?

While I was composing this message, I just read an edit to the post I responded to that said "mtf ones i mean" so the answer is easier: Under the assumption that overall the "bisexual" and "queer" and "other" components of each group are equally attracted to men and women (even though individuals in those components generally are not), the answer is no because a higher proportion of trans women are lesbian (29%) than heterosexual (23%) according to the survey.

As for overall, it's an interesting exercise in computing sums of products of percentages.

6/26/2013 12:51:43 AM

interesting. my point still stands that andymac should be more afraid of lesbians.

6/26/2013 8:01:51 AM

serious question here, what will happen when "she" gets her first erection? god forbid it happens at school for whatever reason. are the taunts, teasing, and bullying not going to happen? i find that hard to believe in the culture today where all of that is running rampant.

6/26/2013 8:08:27 AM

Quote :

"26% were trans men, 41% trans women, 20% bigender (part-time alternating between male and female identities), 13% had a gender identity other than male or female ("third gender")"

This almost makes it feel hopeless to even try to accomidate all these. I think the black and white line of use the restroom of the gender you are currently assigned works fine. If the kid and parents really want to change restrooms, get reassigned. I don't know if that requires surgery or diagnosis or something, maybe lewisje can explain what that takes, but have the M legally changed to an F, so she would go to female juvie and anything else.

6/26/2013 9:16:03 AM

Quote :

"serious question here, what will happen when "she" gets her first erection?"

Depending on how wealthy her parents are, they may be able to put her on "puberty blockers" or maybe even estrogens and anti-androgens (i.e., hormone replacement therapy), so her penis won't get big or start visible spontaneous erections, and it won't be an issue.

Quote :

"my point still stands that andymac should be more afraid of lesbians."

yup, a lot more lesbians than trans people out there

[Edited on June 26, 2013 at 11:39 AM. Reason :

6/26/2013 11:38:03 AM

fucking child abuse. this boy was confused and/or unaware of gender roles and the parents ran with it and convinced him it was ok for people to call him "her"

i'm not even arguing that transgenders don't exist, but a kid who isn't old enough to really understand the differences between boys and girls - especially grown up boys and grown up girls - shouldn't be given hormone treatments to make them the opposite sex.



[Edited on June 26, 2013 at 3:41 PM. Reason : ]

6/26/2013 3:20:04 PM

More insightful backseat politicking from the one and only, smath74. Clearly you know better.

6/26/2013 3:32:56 PM

Giving a child hormones to unnaturally retard his sexual development is wrong, especially if there is no confirmed medical reason to do so.

6/26/2013 3:38:31 PM

i don't think they get hormone treatment until near-puberty

6/26/2013 3:42:45 PM

is there a test that can clinically and accurately diagnose a child as transgender? because messing with the a child's natural development is a huge and permanent decision.

6/26/2013 3:46:02 PM

Are any psychological tests accurate to the level of certainty your bullshit reasoning requires? For children, no less?

[Edited on June 26, 2013 at 3:56 PM. Reason : .]

6/26/2013 3:53:32 PM

You have to have a "long-standing" and "strong" feeling of gender dysphoria, a few years is probably not long enough to be disgnosed with gender identity disorder. I doubt anyone would diagnose him with it until near puberty.

I didn't read anywhere in the article where the child was being given hormones. It seems unlikely considering children don't get their birth assigned gender hormones for quite a while for this kid.

[Edited on June 26, 2013 at 3:58 PM. Reason : ]

6/26/2013 3:56:55 PM

Quote :

" your bullshit reasoning"

being cautious about messing with an otherwise perfectly healthy child's hormones? that is hardly bullshit.

Quote :

"I didn't read anywhere in the article where the child was being given hormones. It seems unlikely considering children don't get their birth assigned gender hormones for quite a while for this kid."

no... basing this discussion purely on what users have suggested in this thread.

[Edited on June 26, 2013 at 4:30 PM. Reason : ]

6/26/2013 4:29:41 PM

Oh boy, more classic Smath.

And thus begins his retreat.

6/26/2013 5:47:56 PM

I question the morality of anyone who would mess with a child's hormones so his penis doesn't develop correctly because of an at best vague diagnosis of gender identity disorder. It is a highly controversial practice for many reasons, including the fact that a lot of the time the disorder reverses its self naturally over time.

6/26/2013 7:16:15 PM

Quote :

"including the fact that a lot of the time the disorder reverses its self naturally over time."

Oh please expound upon this.

6/26/2013 7:33:20 PM

it's what i read in several articles i found (they were references from the wikipedia article). it means exactly what i said. oftentimes the feelings of GID reverse (sometimes because of social pressure, but often as a natural course of the development of the child.)

[Edited on June 26, 2013 at 8:11 PM. Reason : ]

6/26/2013 8:10:08 PM