It's not progressives who classify a fetus as subhuman, it's the Bible:

Exodus 21:22- if a man causes a woman to miscarriage he gets fined, he is only put to death if the woman herself dies. this differentiates between the woman and her fetus and places her fetus on a lower level, the old testament didn't classify killing a fetus as murder

life has been considered to start at birth for centuries, even among Christians. believing that life starts at conception is a pretty recent phenomenon.

The ‘biblical view’ that’s younger than the Happy Meal
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/02/18/the-biblical-view-thats-younger-than-the-happy-meal/

The Not-So-Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/sexandgender/6801/the_not_so_lofty_origins_of_the_evangelical_pro_life_movement_/

The Not-So-Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 11:38 AM. Reason : although Jesus was a progressive liberal, so maybe that's not surprising]

5/8/2014 11:24:04 AM

Quote :

"^^justify it how you want, but it IS a human being that is being killed."

Depending on the gestation time, it is not *a* human *being*, though it is human. It's a human embryo missing that essential thing to be a being: the capability for sentience. Before that, it's just human meat.

If we cut off your arm, would that also be a distinct human being? Of course not. Without the living working brain it's just meat.

Quote :

"But somehow a culture's been duped in less than 30 years into thinking that a certain type of person is in fact subhuman. Hmm..sounds familiar. There's "progressive" "morality" for you. "

Yeah, that's precisely the position we've had for 46 pages. Thanks for engaging honestly in this conversation.

5/8/2014 11:29:04 AM

^^I've read a little bit about that before but wasn't convinced.

Well I guess I would say that I wasn't convinced that in the past, they had the same incentive to examine the issue, since abortion wasn't so prevalent (and even encouraged by certain types...like the woman who made that video). If science has told us anything about life in the womb in recent decades, it has told us how ridiculously complex and conscious fetuses are.

But thanks for the articles, I will check them out.

Quote :

"Yeah, that's precisely the position we've had for 46 pages. Thanks for engaging honestly in this conversation. "

And no I didn't mean you guys have been duped. I meant liberal popular culture in general (which is where we seem headed on matters like this..and its their votes that get this unfortunate legislation passed). Most pro-choicers I know don't approach the issue in nearly as utilitarian or sophisticated ways like you guys. (I disagree with major pre-suppositions you guys have, of course, but in general I wouldn't say you've simply been duped.)

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 11:44 AM. Reason : ]

5/8/2014 11:43:04 AM

that video isn't encouraging anyone, its just providing a clear and factual representation of what it actually is. she says that she had trouble finding clear information about the process, and that a lot of it was untrue misinformation, and so recorded the process to show what it actually is.

so how are you unconvinced by the Bible treating killing a fetus differently than a woman? if the fetus is a person, why does God treat it as a subhuman? why is the punishment for killing the fetus just a fine if the fetus is a person with full rights?

Just 30 years ago even evangelicals didn't believe a fetus had a soul, its a very new belief


[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 11:53 AM. Reason : abortion definitely existed then, and certainly in the time of Jesus yet he said nothing about it]

5/8/2014 11:49:19 AM

I know abortion existed then, and pretty much in some form in every culture ever. But I'd wager it wasn't 55 million babies over three decades.

But with regards to that passage in Exodus and how I've come to terms with it? Language, context, and what's lost in translation...

Quote :

"Clues from the Context This inductive analysis shows us something important: Nothing about the word yasa implies the death of the child. The context may give us this information, as in Numbers 12:12, but the word itself does not. This leads us to our next question: What in the context justifies our assumption that the child that "comes forth" is dead? The answer is, nothing does. There is no indication anywhere in the verse that a fine is assessed for a miscarriage and a more severe penalty is assessed for harming the mother."

from http://www.str.org/articles/what-exodus-21-22-says-about-abortion#.U2uogF40qmU

The points in your patheos article about the recent evangelical shift on the issue are well-taken. And unfortunate. I think it says a lot about how during the formation of the "Moral Majority" and the changing American political landscape, Christian conservative culture became less interested in inquiry/questioning/truth and more interested in winning votes and gathering consensus. Which I agree is a serious problem. Back then you had more dissensus about important issues, in any camp, left or right. I think it says a lot about why the "moral revolution" is so dramatically in favor of the left these days too. The Christian right simply doesn't know how to counter it with any convincing claims.

Which makes me wonder if you believe the truth, but don't why...is it still the truth? If so, what's been lost? Hmmm...

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 12:09 PM. Reason : ]

5/8/2014 12:03:40 PM

think about how viable a premature birth would be during those times, the better response is pointing out that the laws applied intent to the punishment (which is the response I was assuming you would make, perhaps i thought too highly of you). We can clarify the intention from those hittite laws and the code of hammurabi and can also observe the fetus being treated differently than the woman.

so our next conversation is why those laws based punishment on the development of the fetus if the fetus was alive and had a soul from the moment of conception? some laws were based on the number of months, and others based on the physical development of the fetus. Even the early church shared these views, St. Augustine only said that abortion was murder only when the fetus had arms and legs. Even at the time they knew this was not until well after conception, so why the distinction if life begins at conception? The answer is that they didn't believe that, its a modern belief.

Also, if you want to get semantic about it, that passage also only means that we are talking about a fetus with the shape of a human and not a clump of cells that modern evangelicals claim is a human. More importantly to the personhood argument though, there is a distinction between living and being a person. There is no hebrew word for fetus because they only considered the late stage human shaped fetus and used the same word for child. This does not mean that every fetus is a person, the contemporaneous interpretation was that the fetus/child was not a person until half emerged from the birth canal.

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 12:46 PM. Reason : person/living distinction]

5/8/2014 12:20:13 PM

Quote :

"But I'd wager it wasn't 55 million babies over three decades."

I'd wager there's at least ten times as many people on earth as there was in jesus's time. And they didn't keep records of abortions. And a far higher percentage of pregnancies ended in complications.

5/8/2014 12:21:12 PM

Since we are talking scripture now, I'm also interested in discussing the priests giving abortions to women accused of adultery in Numbers 5:12-31

5/8/2014 12:45:52 PM

It's Old Testament, Christians don't even acknowledge that anymore...

5/8/2014 12:51:09 PM

Super, I guess that Jesus thing was a lie and they no longer care about all those prophecies from the OT they claim he fulfilled.

(they only don't care about the parts that are either not yet disproven by science or are completely against modern secular sensibilities)

5/8/2014 1:27:30 PM

Quote :

"that video isn't encouraging anyone, its just providing a clear and factual representation of what it actually is"

hmmm, not too sure about that. she set out to prove that it isn't as scary as everyone thinks. i could be wrong, but methinks this might not be her first time at the abortion rodeo...

in any event, it doesn't matter. her body, her choice.

5/8/2014 1:34:17 PM

^^they can't use Jesus because he doesn't talk about it

^she even explicitly says that this experience is only for her, and she can only talk about her specific experience. i'm assuming you realize how you are just making your own assumptions (and then implying that she is a slut, even though this was her first pregnancy)

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 1:39 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2014 1:36:40 PM

sure, that's what she says. i'm a bit suspicious of anyone who films ANYTHING for the 'first time', claiming they're out to prove something isn't scary. it's one thing to get an abortion, but to film it is kinda intense. and to be fair, i'm not calling her a slut. i'm calling her a liar!

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 1:41 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2014 1:39:08 PM

why is filming it intense? this is what she does and wanted to provide a factual account of whats actually involved, she was inspired by someone who filmed themselves talking an RU-486 pill.

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 1:41 PM. Reason : talking taking whatever]

5/8/2014 1:41:29 PM

i'm sure i'm not the only person who would NEVER think to film my abortion procedure and upload it on the internets. for me, it would be a really, really difficult thing to handle emotionally, and something i'd want to be as private as possible. maybe i'm just emo though it's not like this was her first time skydiving...

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 1:54 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2014 1:46:54 PM

lol that's "factual" with its happy music playing in the background and her forcing a smile the entire time...

meanwhile the pictures of what actually is happening below the waist is considered propaganda

Quote :

"In perhaps the most bizarre and unsettling part of the entire bizarre and unsettling video, she says this: “I feel in awe of the fact that I can make a baby. I can make a life. I knew what I was doing was right because it was right for me, and no one else.” The last sentence perfectly encapsulates the entire philosophy of American ‘progressivism.’ I know what I’m doing is right, because it’s right for me. One day, I believe that phrase will be the epithet on the tombstone of modern culture. I know that it is right — because it’s right for me. So succinct, so emblematic, so tragic. But the first two sentences seem to be the words of a psychopath. She delights in the destruction of life, because it lets her know that life is possible. This sounds like dialogue from an episode of Dexter, not a thing that a real non-institutionalized person would actually say."

He relies on too many appeals to emotion for my liking, but he's spot on with much of his assessment: http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/05/07/this-is-my-positive-abortion-story/#e2TEfqIV7T9OgoqY.99

5/8/2014 2:11:14 PM

so they should have played scary/angry music in the background instead. riiiight. personally, i'd go with ambient noise.

5/8/2014 2:13:49 PM

^me too. and with visuals- you know the ones we know exist that we aren't allowed to show, the ones of the flesh and blood cocktails and severed fetus body parts- since we are talking about facts and all. the full picture might be more than her smiling face.

5/8/2014 2:19:48 PM

yeah yeah yeah. but we've all seen that before. abortion is gruesome/scary. got it.

while i don't think i could personally do what she did, at least she's showing another aspect, and she seems perfectly fine with her decision. and good on her, i guess.

5/8/2014 2:23:19 PM

Quote :

"He relies on too many appeals to emotion for my liking"

and

Quote :

"me too. and with visuals- you know the ones we know exist that we aren't allowed to show, the ones of the flesh and blood cocktails and severed fetus body parts- since we are talking about facts and all. the full picture might be more than her smiling face."

DOES NOT COMPUTE

5/8/2014 2:24:47 PM

Last week I was traveling a lot down east and was scanning the radio a lot, and was surprised at the number of programs that seemed dedicated to the ant-choice agenda. I heard about a "documentary" called "We Murder Babies Here" that I think you can watch online, been meaning to.

5/8/2014 2:27:52 PM

FACTS = VISUALS, WHICH IS WHAT YOU SEE, WHAT IS THERE, ESPECIALLY FOR YOU EMPIRICIST SENSORY-IS-TRUTH-TYPES

lol sheesh. i'm not talking photoshop here guys. i'm talking just SHOW. US. WHAT. HAPPENS.

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 2:28 PM. Reason : whew]

5/8/2014 2:28:11 PM

it's kinda fucked up that you WANT her to show the whole story. a little depraved/bloodlusty if you ask me

5/8/2014 2:29:52 PM

Yeah man! Good one! Did you get that one from the Nazis when the Allied forces wanted them to release the footage on the death camps?!

i'm just flabbergasted that this chick is getting star treatment from you guys when it is such obvious propaganda

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 2:32 PM. Reason : ]

5/8/2014 2:31:36 PM

I don't think she's getting star treatment. You're claiming she's encouraging people. A few have said that she's not. And a few have said "good for her". That's not star treatment. You're often disingenuous in your statements.

5/8/2014 2:35:43 PM

death threats is star treatment now? okay.

5/8/2014 2:38:47 PM

Fair enough. a tendency of message boards perhaps? Read this page with people's posts on Jesus, the OT, and trying to conflate those arguments with anything I've said and tell me if I'm the only one guilty of that.

Star treatment is pretty close to "good for her". If I'm conflating the two then I should have said "congratulating her". My bad, if that makes a significant difference.

5/8/2014 2:39:05 PM

are you okay with the RU-486 video?

5/8/2014 2:40:42 PM

i haven't seen it

5/8/2014 2:41:27 PM

now i can't find it, all the links just go back to this

it was another video where abortion wasn't encouraged

5/8/2014 2:45:11 PM

I don't know about you guys, but I get squeamish while looking at footage of a surgery of any kind, but that sure as hell wouldn't stop me from getting whatever procedure I needed

5/8/2014 2:58:26 PM

Quote :

"You're claiming she's encouraging people"

Yup. I definitely think she is. And that's good for her, I guess. I mean she herself was encouraged by watching the RU486 video. Pretty hard to argue that this was 'just for her'.

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 3:30 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2014 3:29:07 PM

Quote :

"I don't know about you guys, but I get squeamish while looking at footage of a surgery of any kind"

Exactly. Showing gory images of abortions is like showing pictures of tumor surgery to dissuade people from having their cancer removed.

5/8/2014 3:30:04 PM

^^ encouraging means trying to get people to do it. even if one accept's ohmy's claim that this is pro-abortion propaganda the video is still not encouraging anyone to do it, its just showing that medical abortions are safe, easy, and not very painful.

the video is only trying to demonstrate the safeness and easiness of her experience, not document what happens on the other side of the sheet, its not dishonest to not include that since that is blocked from her view.

are you saying that unless you make a silent scream type film you are encouraging it? are you claiming that if you tell someone it's safe that's encouraging?

5/8/2014 3:35:42 PM

perhaps i'm not being clear. i'm not necessarily AGAINST what she did. it's totally her prerogative to get an abortion, film the process, upload it on the internet, and share her experience with the world. i actually think it's pretty brave. on the other hand, she seems kinda nuts. her demeanor/affect was a bit weird to me, but that's probably just because the whole thing made me really uncomfortable. those are MY hangups, and i'll concede that i'm projecting them.

now, i think you are getting hung up on what i mean by 'encourage'. i never said she's suggesting everyone should go out to get an abortion and that abortions are wonderful. but she definitely had a goal behind this whole thing: to show people HER opinion on abortion, which just so happens to be a positive one. i'm willing to wager that some women who were on the fence about it, will see her experience as a positive one and decide to take the plunge for themselves. at the very least, i think we can both agree that this was a persuasive piece, that might have various levels of encouragement, depending on the viewer. and yeah, i think at the very least, she's deliberately trying to demonstrate that the procedure was safe and she experienced minimal discomfort.




[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 3:47 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2014 3:43:04 PM

Quote :

"i'm willing to wager that some women who were on the fence about it, will see her experience as a positive one and decide to take the plunge for themselves. "

Depending on what the source of their hesitation is, a woman shouldn't feel stigmatized or scorned for making that choice.

5/8/2014 3:48:23 PM

we can argue semantics all day long, but i think it's pretty clear what her intentions were.

5/8/2014 3:49:28 PM

Eighty four, didn't you get the memo that only Fox News engages in dishonest "reporting"?

5/8/2014 4:17:27 PM

Nobody's making that claim. In fact, I think most people would argue that all media engages in dishonest reporting. CNN is getting right up there with Fox. More disingenuous statements.

5/8/2014 4:23:53 PM

^^not really sure what you're talking about. this isn't really a mass media issue, it's just one woman's story. i'm just assessing what actually happened here. i can be pro-choice and still uncomfortable with a woman filming her abortion procedure at the same time. aside from that, i don't necessarily have a problem with encouraging abortions; it's a personal choice between a woman and her doctor. active or passive; encouragement or discouragement- in the end it's a really difficult decision to make.

my only point was that this woman definitely had an agenda in doing what she did. big deal.



[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 4:27 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2014 4:24:47 PM

are we saying now that this blogger woman is "the media"

nevermind, ^ already responded to that

[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 4:34 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2014 4:34:26 PM

does ohmy have anything else to copy/pasta or misrepresent with a straw man, or can i get back to my lunch...

5/8/2014 4:39:38 PM

Quote :

"In a follow-up piece for Cosmopolitan this week, Letts explains her reasons for sharing her story. She describes her career as an abortion counselor as a “perfect world that fulfills me in so many different ways” and candidly admits that she had not been using birth control when she got pregnant.Mistakes happen. And then she says that almost from the moment she decided to have an abortion, she wanted to show other women what it looks like. “We talk about abortion so much and yet no one really knows what it actually looks like,” she writes. “A first trimester abortion takes three to five minutes. It is safer than giving birth. There is no cutting, and risk of infertility is less than 1 percent.” She says she doesn’t regret her choice but that it motivated her to get an IUD, to “learn and move forward.”"

Not to beat a dead horse, but she is an abortion counselor. Kinda ends the whole 'encouragement' debate.


[Edited on May 8, 2014 at 8:16 PM. Reason : .]

5/8/2014 8:13:46 PM

it apparently doesn't end you misusing "encouragement" though

5/8/2014 8:14:46 PM

Quote :

"en·cour·age en'k?rij,-'k?-rij/Submit verb give support, confidence, or hope to (someone). "we were encouraged by the success of this venture" synonyms: hearten, cheer, buoy up, uplift, inspire, motivate, spur on, stir, stir up, fire up, stimulate, invigorate, vitalize, revitalize, embolden, fortify, rally; More antonyms: discourage give support and advice to (someone) so that they will do or continue to do something. "pupils are encouraged to be creative" synonyms: persuade, coax, urge, press, push, pressure, pressurize, prod, goad, egg on, prompt, influence, sway; More antonyms: dissuade help or stimulate (an activity, state, or view) to develop. "the intention is to encourage new writing talent" synonyms: support, back, champion, promote, further, foster, nurture, cultivate, strengthen, stimulate; More "

5/8/2014 8:17:34 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOVE0Bl5T3E

parody is pretty good, up until the very end.

5/8/2014 8:31:56 PM

whoa, what? I don't see where I called her "the" media. Did she use media? Absolutely? Did she take part in participatory media culture to try to sway a significant audience? Absolutely. Furthermore, did she use framing, audio cues, editing, loaded language, etc., to present a BIASED presentation of an issue and to ENCOURAGE a specific ACT and specific AGENDA? Absolutely.

You don't have to be a hired CNN or Fox News journalist to "report" on an issue these days. Or to do it in half-truths. Welcome to the 21st century, guys. Good straw man, trying to call me out for a straw man.

just pointing out how little scrutiny you guys apply to the arguments or artifacts that seem to corroborate your ideologies, that's all

Oh and...

Quote :

"this isn't really a mass media issue"

11,000+ "Google News" results alone = not mass media issue. Right.

[Edited on May 9, 2014 at 2:16 PM. Reason : ]

5/9/2014 2:02:42 PM

but you said the media was treating her like a star, and then posted images that include negative stories. maybe i misunderstood what you meant by "like a star" but i assumed you meant the media was praising her, and you've just demonstrated the media being critical of her.

[Edited on May 9, 2014 at 2:19 PM. Reason : and also demonstrated that most reporting is about the reaction]

5/9/2014 2:19:08 PM

Nah, not the mass media in general. Thankfully, they aren't as deluded as Letts. They seem to hold to the idea that it is a necessary evil (and, news flash, evil comes with guilt), whereas Letts is trying to take a much more proactive, and yes, "encouraging" stance.

The far left media (i.e. Policymic, Gawker, ThinkProgress, etc...which is mostly just online thankfully) is giving her the star treatment though.

my point is that it absolutely is a mass media issue. It's the nature of the mass media/social media landscape now. It doesn't have to be a concentrated Orwellian propaganda push for it to be an issue. And I'm glad the mass media, in general, seem to be stigmatizing her. That kind of mindset should be stigmatized. Shows how out of touch the far left is with reality and a majority of Americans.

And that parody video? NAILED IT.

[Edited on May 9, 2014 at 2:29 PM. Reason : ]

5/9/2014 2:25:35 PM

disproving the myth that it's dangerous is not encouraging, even if that makes jesus cry

Quote :

" Shows how out of touch the far left is with reality and a majority of Americans."

except that a majority support 1st trimester abortions and only something like 10% agree with your position (always illegal), so who is out of touch?

also, can you explain Numbers 5:12-31 now?

[Edited on May 9, 2014 at 2:34 PM. Reason : .]

5/9/2014 2:29:14 PM