haha, i'll just point you back to the eighty-four's post about encouragement. you like going in circles.

Disagreement =/= Out of touch.

I have a pretty accurate pulse on the political and cultural temperature and shifts taking place, thanks!

The Numbers passage? Tell me again how it has anything to do with abortion?

5/9/2014 2:44:04 PM

So you understand that a tiny majority agree with you, and a majority support the right to first trimester abortions?

That's a passage that includes priests giving abortions to cheating women.

5/9/2014 3:06:59 PM

are we not going to discuss the parody? because after watching it a few times, i think it's fucking hilarious. the coat hanger brings the lulz

i can't believe i'm actually going to type this out, but on a very, very superficial level, i can kinda agree with ohmy. after reading her interview with frigging COSMO, i'd say this was a very calculated maneuver. i've got to hand it to her though. filming your own abortion when you're an aspiring abortion counsellor is pretty much the ultimate in 'professional development'.

[Edited on May 9, 2014 at 3:39 PM. Reason : .]

5/9/2014 3:29:38 PM

No one is saying it wasn't calculated, she even says it was calculated and explains her agenda

But that doesn't make it deceiving or dishonest and it doesn't encourage others to have abortions

5/9/2014 5:49:56 PM

^^^ but it doesn't. it's another lost in translation case. the interpretations that think it has anything to do with pregnancy/miscarriage/abortion are far outnumbered. there's almost no way you can conclude it's about priests giving abortions based on the original Hebrew.

bitter water that leads to a bloated stomach as a divination practice whereby God would disclose someone's adultery =/= abortion

[Edited on May 9, 2014 at 5:54 PM. Reason : ]

5/9/2014 5:54:28 PM

It literally says bloated stomach AND WOMB MISCARRY


Are you acknowledging now that more people agree Sith this crazy woman than with you

[Edited on May 9, 2014 at 6:10 PM. Reason : haha Sith]

5/9/2014 6:09:02 PM

Quote :

"No one is saying it wasn't calculated, she even says it was calculated and explains her agenda But that doesn't make it deceiving or dishonest and it doesn't encourage others to have abortions "

I seriously question the ethos of a woman who films her first abortion and then later becomes an abortion counsellor. Don't you? How you can you legitimately claim that she didn't do it to encourage others when that's exactly why she did it? She said it in like fifteen different ways that she wanted to show people it wasn't scary!

5/9/2014 6:32:59 PM

Who cares if she did it to encourage others?

Abortions as it stands are legal, and are viewed as a family planning measure in the eyes of society. No woman should feel scorned or chastised or like they are a pariah for choosing an abortion.

5/9/2014 6:48:16 PM

^^ she wanted to show it's safe, anti-choice zealots have misinformation claims calling it unsafe.

[Edited on May 9, 2014 at 7:08 PM. Reason : .]

5/9/2014 7:07:35 PM

Quote :

"Who cares if she did it to encourage others? Abortions as it stands are legal, and are viewed as a family planning measure in the eyes of society. No woman should feel scorned or chastised or like they are a pariah for choosing an abortion."

I agree. I just wish dtownral would admit that her actions are a form of encouragement is all. Why is that so difficult?

5/9/2014 7:45:33 PM

It's probably semantics. When you say "she's encouraging people to have abortions", it could be interpreted as her saying"Go have irresponsible unprotected sex, and then get as many abortions as you want, it's no big deal!", which I don't think she's saying (although i haven't even watched the video). Maybe you just mean she's saying "if you've accidentally become pregnant, and want an abortion, but are too scared to do it, the procedure is not as bad as you may think it is." If you think this statement is "encouraging", then she probably is "encouraging".

5/9/2014 7:58:30 PM

watch the video. it's closer to the later than the former, but her overall word choice, mannerisms, and nonchalant attitude was pretty weird to me. after reading her actual interview with Cosmo, i think she's a bit nuts.




[Edited on May 9, 2014 at 8:45 PM. Reason : .]

5/9/2014 8:42:42 PM

^^ yeah , I'm saying she is doing the second and not the first

5/9/2014 9:29:50 PM

5/10/2014 12:08:21 AM

^ Does not work.

More than a decade ago I bombarded the very first abortion thread with similar pics, but no one here cared. Those who don't see that as wrong (let alone murder) will not, even after seeing the pics. Yeah, you might have the 1 out of 1,000 who might be converted, but it is rare. One of them was my gf at the time at NCSU. We walked over to the brickyard to see the exhibit of the massive posters with such images put up by an anti-abortion organization. She was quite naive, and had no clue what abortion entailed, just that she was ok with it. After seeing the pics, she was in near tears and saw it for what it is.

5/10/2014 12:29:09 AM

Post more!

5/10/2014 12:41:36 AM

Yawn

5/10/2014 1:05:48 AM

I actually like the ones that show a dime for scale. Makes that clump of cells resembling a human look so tiny!

5/10/2014 1:07:29 AM

Quote :

"It literally says bloated stomach AND WOMB MISCARRY"

I seriously doubt you read Hebrew and know what it literally says.

I'm no Hebrew scholar either but a quick Google search shows that it is almost the exact same situation as the Exodus passage. Many popular translations...King James, ESV, etc.. translate it as "womb to shrivel", "thigh fall away", etc. It's quite a stretch to take the original Hebrew term to mean today's understanding of abortion, or even miscarriage.

5/10/2014 1:23:12 AM

It's the Hebrew word for miscarriage

5/10/2014 7:37:19 AM

Quote :

"It's quite a stretch to take the original Hebrew term to mean today's understanding of abortion, or even miscarriage."

please explain why this is a stretch. do you mean you don't want to believe that's what the text says OR...

5/10/2014 1:41:39 PM

It's fun watching him squirm.

5/10/2014 2:00:49 PM

^^that's exactly what I mean.

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3409.htm

Bam.

(look at me squirm)

5/12/2014 10:35:13 PM

Quote :

"Does not work. More than a decade ago I bombarded the very first abortion thread with similar pics, but no one here cared. Those who don't see that as wrong (let alone murder) will not, even after seeing the pics. Yeah, you might have the 1 out of 1,000 who might be converted, but it is rare. One of them was my gf at the time at NCSU. We walked over to the brickyard to see the exhibit of the massive posters with such images put up by an anti-abortion organization. She was quite naive, and had no clue what abortion entailed, just that she was ok with it. After seeing the pics, she was in near tears and saw it for what it is. "

The pictures don't really show anything. Those aren't even clearly humans, but it's irrelevant, because even natural miscarriages result in the exact same outcome. Just recently a coworkers spouse had a miscarriage, but needed a D&X and the red tape put in place by the right caused significant delays in her being able to obtain the procedure, and was threatening her health.

Nature is far crueler than anything man has yet done in killing humans, even fetuses.

5/12/2014 11:36:50 PM

I wasn't aware that nature stuck a hose into a woman's vagina, sucked out fetuses, and then cut them apart, piece by piece...

5/13/2014 12:03:56 AM

Nature kills a woman without giving them that option. Man gives them that option.

5/13/2014 12:40:53 AM

That's pretty much exactly correct. Absent modern medical practices the infant mortality rate would be closer to what it was in the Roman Republic (50% or so) than the current 6 per 1000 live births we have in the US today.

Still, that's not really the question when it comes to the ethics of abortion.

Maternal mortality rates probably would jump up quite a bit from the 28 per 100000 we currently see, but not much of that has to do with abortion either


[Edited on May 13, 2014 at 12:50 AM. Reason : sdfsdf]

5/13/2014 12:48:05 AM

Ectopic pregnancies are just little exploding gifts of God's love, so try not to die when you start hemorrhaging internally

5/13/2014 6:23:18 AM

Quote :

"^^that's exactly what I mean. http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3409.htm Bam. (look at me squirm)"

they didn't translate it as "miscarry" on a whim, they translated it because thigh is used as a euphemism for reproductive organs and other organs. The bible uses thigh euphemistically in many places, children are often "progeny of your thigh." it means miscarry here. Are you really going to believe that its about saggy thighs?

from your own source, you can see:

Quote :

"b. thigh = loins, as seat of procreative power "

also, from the American Journal of Semetic Languages:

Quote :

"That ?????????? ?????? means of abortion admits of little doubt[...]"

http://books.google.com/books?id=vbY1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA46#v=onepage&q&f=false

5/13/2014 9:02:39 AM

I kinda agree with Ohmy on this one.

Numbers 5.11-5.31 doesn't refer to a pregnant woman but an "impure" one that has slept with another man. The point of the potion isn't to maker her abort, but to make her womb shrivel up and be unable to have any more children. (granted, if she was pregnant at the time it would effectively act as an abortion)

I will point out that while it's probably not about abortion, it's still vile putrid bronze age savagery and it's in his stupid holy book.

5/13/2014 9:36:37 AM

Quote :

"granted, if she was pregnant at the time it would effectively act as an abortion"

that's not a trivial or insignificant difference from ohmy, that's exactly what he is saying is not true

__



what is the neo-christian method of handling ectopic pregnancies? how is one supposed to handle this and not make God sad?



[Edited on May 13, 2014 at 9:56 AM. Reason : .]

5/13/2014 9:48:02 AM

Look at all these unicode noobs.

יָרֵך

My yarek brings all the boys to the yard

5/13/2014 10:04:12 AM

^ lol

^^ We are talking about a practice of divination. To assume that God shutting down the woman's procreative abilities means killing a fetus...again I say...is a stretch. It doesn't even mention pregnancy at all. The only way to read abortion or miscarriage into that passage is to commit numerous hermeneutical fallacies and ask a bunch of what ifs. You have a difficult time admitting when you're wrong, dtown.

5/13/2014 10:35:27 AM

that's not my personal opinion, its the theological opinion. but regardless, the bible is just another book so who cares

what is the neo-christian method of handling ectopic pregnancies? i am curious how someone is supposed to handle this and not make God sad.

[Edited on May 13, 2014 at 10:39 AM. Reason : .]

5/13/2014 10:38:53 AM

except most theological opinions align with what I said, not yours, especially if we are just going by how few modern translations actually translate the word to miscarry.

why are you curious about ectopic pregnancies? surely you don't think that the motivation of avoiding material hardship and maximizing convenience poses the same justifiable motivation for ending a life as a legitimate threat to the mother's life like an ectopic pregnancy?

5/13/2014 11:11:23 AM

if life starts at conception, and ending that life is murder, how can any doctor treat ectopic pregnancy? wait for it to burst and treat the symptoms?

or have i misunderstood your position and you support murdering the child at any stage that it threatens the life of the mother?

[Edited on May 13, 2014 at 11:19 AM. Reason : .]

5/13/2014 11:12:58 AM

Life of the mother, and rape and incest exceptions are pretty inconsistent.

5/13/2014 11:22:10 AM

i wouldn't say its inconsistent if you are making a self-defense argument, but it still falls apart pretty quickly when you dissect it.

someone claims that abortion is okay for ectopic pregnancies and others because they threaten the life of the mother. okay, if you subscribe to the morality of self defense then this is an okay opinion. but only at first.

what does "threaten the life of the mother" mean? it's possible that someone survives a burst ectopic pregnancy and its possible that someone survives other "life threatening" complications, so how do you decide how dangerous something can be to decide it's worth killing another person? if it's up to the mother or to the parents to decide what risk they are willing to take, and because all pregnancies are inherently risky, then why is that not moral justification for any abortion? If its up to the doctor then why are doctors the arbiter of morality? additionally, if its an issue of minimizing risk, then all abortions are moral because they are less risky than pregnancy (pregnancies have a mortality rate somewhere around 1 in 11,000 but abortions have a mortality rate of only 1 in 167,000)

[Edited on May 13, 2014 at 11:32 AM. Reason : ,]

5/13/2014 11:31:10 AM

you are over thinking this. it's way easier to cherry pick ideas/arguments from your belief system than to come up with logical exceptions for a set of rules that are arbitrary anyway.

5/13/2014 2:14:06 PM

^^similar questions can be applied to many justifications for war or for practically any use of self-defense ever.

my argument doesn't fall apart when you ask those questions, it simply becomes more nuanced. your answer is what...let the mother decide it all? to that i'd say, it's a little more nuanced. (doctors know more than you, me, or the mother. also the voters and legislators arbitrate the morality.)

The complexity of those types of questions is why there are ethical boards serving at every hospital. I think its best to let them do their job. I also would throw my hat in with the likes of OB-GYNs who spend their whole life making such judgments...people like pro-life Ron Paul by the way

[Edited on May 14, 2014 at 12:34 AM. Reason : ]

5/14/2014 12:14:50 AM

illogical and belief-based arguments are now 'nuanced'.

haha. got it

5/14/2014 12:59:40 AM

^^ so if the voters and legislators decide morality (lol to that), then at least most abortion is moral. If we let doctors or healthcare workers decide, then abortions are moral.

Remember that you are making this self defense argument, not me. By your argumentyou are stating that you are pro-choice and that at least some abortions are moral. I suspect that this is not your position, but that's the problem with patch-work logic and inconsistent positions.

tl;dr ohmy is pro-choice and thinks that abortion is moral

[Edited on May 14, 2014 at 8:28 AM. Reason : .]

5/14/2014 8:28:05 AM

Would I be a happy man if the only abortions allowed were those pregnancies that were immediately life-threatening to the mother? Yes, yes I would. But I'm pro-life not to argue rare hypotheticals. I'm pro-life because a majority of the 55 million+ babies killed, were not immediate threats to the life of the mother.

---

Voters and legislators don't DECIDE morality. they legislate their own ideas about morality. nearly every law passed legislates some type of morality (whether its traffic laws, where our taxes go, property laws, abortion, or marriage).

---

Also, 2000 years of varied theological debate...yes, it actually is nuanced. maybe you don't get that when you tune in to CBN or Fox News, but the traditional Christian position has always been nuanced. Read some Thomas Aquinas.

5/14/2014 12:06:29 PM

Quote :

"Voters and legislators don't DECIDE morality. they legislate their own ideas about morality."

well you said arbitrate and that means deciding, but okay whatever.


how high of a risk does something have to be to allow murdering the child? is an ectopic pregnancy risky enough? who gets to decide the amount of risk and immediacy, can the mother decide or do they need to consult a minister?

[Edited on May 14, 2014 at 12:17 PM. Reason : .]

5/14/2014 12:17:05 PM

since ohmy is cool with things being completely arbitrary and up to a 'nuanced' debate, perhaps medical practitioners and priests could team up by offering women abortion vouchers or grants. a lengthy/expensive application process would likely weed out the casual aborters and ensure that only those deemed worthy enough would have access to it. if that idea doesn't catch on, i think an abortion roulette wheel could also suffice.

5/14/2014 12:32:00 PM

Quote :

"Also, 2000 years of varied theological debate...yes, it actually is nuanced. maybe you don't get that when you tune in to CBN or Fox News, but the traditional Christian position has always been nuanced. Read some Thomas Aquinas."

I have a hard time describing any beliefs epistemically based on divine revelation as nuanced, no matter how many centuries people have been arguing on the details.

5/14/2014 1:54:57 PM

Just going to leave this here

http://www.upworthy.com/feminent-domain

7/6/2014 10:46:18 PM

The Rise of the DIY Abortion in Texas
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-rise-of-the-diy-abortion-in-texas/373240/

7/7/2014 7:49:15 AM

Totally legit argument
http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/07/03/just-pretend-this-dead-lion-is-a-human-baby-and-then-you-wont-be-so-upset/

7/7/2014 10:40:21 AM

it's really not fair to expect a young teen unwed mother to raise a raise a lion for the next 18 years. I mean, lions get big and it would probably eat her.

7/7/2014 10:41:57 AM