Oh, well that's good enough for me.

6/26/2013 8:48:09 PM

Dude just used Wikipedia as a source...

6/26/2013 11:51:48 PM

I should mention here that the drugs that transgender children may take to delay puberty are not permanent; shortly after they're stopped, puberty will progress normally.

It's highly unlikely that by the time the puberty-blockers are taken, she would have any doubt about her gender identity; in fact, people usually know before they enter school, and the only reason for taking puberty-blockers is to make medical and surgical transition, which almost always starts at age 18 and never long before it, more seamless by preventing the irreversible effects of the sex hormones that are associated with the wrong gender identity (that is, the results would be worse if the trans teen were made to go through puberty before HRT and GCS, and puberty usually ends a year or so before the age of majority).

6/27/2013 6:21:47 AM

Quote :

"Dude just used Wikipedia as a source..."

he didn't even really do that, he just made a vague reference

6/27/2013 11:13:32 AM

Quote :

"It's highly unlikely that by the time the puberty-blockers are taken, she would have any doubt about her gender identity; in fact, people usually know before they enter school"

False, nobody can even imagine that their gender is different from their sex until they're brainwashed by liberal Communist Women's Studies professors at college

[Edited on June 27, 2013 at 11:34 AM. Reason : .]

6/27/2013 11:34:46 AM

Quick reminder:

Smath is an educator.

6/27/2013 2:30:14 PM

Using hormones to purposefully cause a child's genitals to not grow correctly is horrific. You are advocating for disfiguring a child because of a mental condition that is not well understood or defined, and sometimes reverses its self during adolescence on it's own? You are quite a piece of shit.

6/27/2013 2:40:48 PM

lots of hyperbole flying around on both sides

smath, i agree that you shouldn't automatically put a kid on hormone treatment when they think they might want to live as a girl. that's why no one does that, ever. they have to remain that way for years before a psychiatrist will give them the go ahead.

6/27/2013 2:56:29 PM

hyperbole in the soap box????

6/27/2013 3:01:12 PM

Another set of parents that should be shot
http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/07/12/Transgender-At-Age-6-Family-Embraces-Decision-To-Let-Daughter-Live-As-Boy

7/13/2013 11:29:13 AM

i was meh about that whole article until

Quote :

"they will have to decide whether to begin giving him puberty blockers to stop breasts and curves from blooming. "

7/13/2013 12:02:00 PM

For pete fucking sake

The kid is 6 years old. 6 year olds don't know the implications of their decisions and how it will affect their future lives.

I'm about to give up on our species.

7/13/2013 3:51:09 PM

They do know their own gender identity, however; it's not a "decision"

Here's a more reliable source for the story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/transgender-at-6-for-tyler-and-his-parents-no-second-thoughts/2013/07/11/eab8b398-ea0f-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_story.html

7/13/2013 3:56:44 PM

A child that age doesn't even fully understand the differences between males and females.

7/13/2013 4:01:35 PM

Gender identity is not dependent on some conscious, intellectual understanding of the difference between males and females but is largely inborn: http://lgbt.ucsf.edu/pdfs/O'Hanlan%20Plenary.pdf

[Edited on July 13, 2013 at 5:15 PM. Reason : Quick reminder, Smath74 is an educator.

7/13/2013 5:14:16 PM

yes, we have covered this. i have also explained that it is unethical to alter a child's hormones so he or she doesn't develop properly.

7/13/2013 5:38:03 PM

and you are wrong in the case of transgender children

7/13/2013 8:11:21 PM

that's your opinion, which I think is wrong. it's not like a kid who has diabetes and you give them insulin. that is clear cut, and the medical community would agree on the treatment.

This is something that is far from being well understood, and among medical professionals it is far from agreed upon that children should be given hormones to prevent the natural development of their bodies.

7/13/2013 9:04:10 PM

^
why do you keep bringing up hormones? children are not given hormones, and they aren't given puberty blockers until the first signs of puberty (10-12). if he still wants to be a boy after 4-6 years, don't you think that's enough time?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/transgender-kids-get-puberty-blocking-drugs-sex-changing-hormones/article547465/

[Edited on July 13, 2013 at 9:28 PM. Reason : .]

7/13/2013 9:27:03 PM

Quote :

"why do you keep bringing up hormones? children are not given hormones,"

from the link address that you posted IN THE SAME POST:

Quote :

"transgender-kids-get-puberty-blocking-drugs-sex-changing-hormones"

7/13/2013 11:01:42 PM

How is it that if I spank my kids, some people think that is abuse, yet this is completely ok?

7/13/2013 11:16:42 PM

^^

Quote :

"Guidelines from the Endocrine Society endorse transgender hormone treatment but say it should not be given before puberty begins. At that point, the guidelines recommend puberty-blocking drugs until age 16, then lifelong sex-changing hormones with monitoring for potential health risks. Mental health professionals should be involved in the process, the guidelines say. The group's members are doctors who treat hormonal conditions."

give me a fucking break, you obtuse troll. a 16 year old is not a "child". you were talking about a 6 year old.

[Edited on July 13, 2013 at 11:21 PM. Reason : .]

7/13/2013 11:20:54 PM

Quote :

"why do you keep bringing up hormones? children are not given hormones, and they aren't given puberty blockers until the first signs of puberty (10-12). if he still wants to be a boy after 4-6 years, don't you think that's enough time?"

from YOUR post on this page. jesus dude.

7/13/2013 11:28:37 PM

puberty blockers aren't hormones, and lewisje already told you that they're reversible

[Edited on July 13, 2013 at 11:32 PM. Reason : .]

7/13/2013 11:32:10 PM

My post:

Quote :

" it is unethical to alter a child's hormones so he or she doesn't develop properly."

"hormone blockers" alter hormones in a child's body. Giving a child hormones or just drugs to internally alter their hormones is semantics.

Quote :

"and lewisje already told you that they're reversible"

i hardly find that credible. you are altering the hormones of a child during his or her formative years.

[Edited on July 13, 2013 at 11:38 PM. Reason : ]

7/13/2013 11:36:52 PM

[Edited on July 13, 2013 at 11:47 PM. Reason : fuck it]

7/13/2013 11:46:02 PM

Quote :

"that's your opinion"

and also the opinion of the medical community

7/14/2013 4:33:30 AM

you say that like it is well agreed upon. it is NOT. it is a very controversial topic within the medical community... in fact most mainstream doctors don''t support it.

this is a link to the first google search i found on the subject, but it tends to back up all of my points...

1. doctors do NOT agree that these drugs are appropriate for a variety of reasons.
2. one of the reasons is that it is not well understood and the effects of the drugs DO cause lifelong changes
3. and there is not a reliable way to diagnose these disorders and many people first "diagnosed" with gender identity disorder turn out NOT to have it.

Quote :

"Other doctors, however, express caution based on a lack of research. Walter Meyer, an endocrinologist and psychiatrist in Texas who works with transgender patients, said that puberty blockers are helpful for some adolescents but that knowing which ones is sometimes difficult. Not all children who identify with the opposite gender end up as transgender adults, he said, and giving medication to those may be going too far. The drugs are administered through a surgical implant in the arm or monthly injections. They suppress the production of sex hormones, making it easier to pass as the opposite gender, Olson said. If the youngsters stop taking the drugs, they will go through puberty. Olson acknowledged that doctors are making clinical decisions based on instincts and observations rather than research. "That's what makes this incredibly difficult," she said. Olson said she prescribes blockers only to adolescents who are in counseling and have been persistent about their gender identity."

Quote :

"doctors remain divided on whether to prescribe the controversial and expensive medication."

you can continue whining all you want, but this issue is far from agreed upon in the medical community.

[Edited on July 14, 2013 at 7:17 AM. Reason : ]

7/14/2013 7:07:35 AM

Even though I didn't say it directly earlier, I'll admit that I thought it was well agreed upon; my best guess is that there just isn't enough research to show that drugs prescribed to block precocious puberty are also effective in transgender cases to the satisfaction of the FDA, and that's because generally there is massive opposition from Rethug-oriented groups against research about human sexuality, because it offends their religious beliefs.

Anyway, I'll post the link you referred to: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/15/local/la-me-transgender-kids-20120615
and right before the "doctors remain divided" section:

Quote :

"Two professional organizations that study hormonal and gender issues recommend the drugs' use in certain transgender cases"

I looked for the names of the organizations, as AFAIK they are the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics, as mentioned here: http://www.portlandmercury.com/BlogtownPDX/archives/2011/12/13/nonprofit-works-with-transgender-kidslong-before-puberty

This article in the Daily Mail, which basically rehashed the L.A. Times, has a misleading headline but three insightful comments: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2160030/The-doctors-defying-FDA-prescribing-transgender-kids-puberty-supressing-drugs-help-change-lives.html

Quote :

"I think your headline is misleading - physicians are not "defying" the FDA, as if they have been ordered to stop. There simply is not enough research on trans kids (Transgender people in general have been ignored in research). There is a body of research on the use of these medications with children, and there has been a research program at the University Medical Center at Utrecht in the Netherlands that has been going for the last 10 years. - Jill Davidson , Poulsbo, WA, USA, 16/6/2012 20:56"

Quote :

"Blocking puberty gives everyone breathing space. For a trans person, going through puberty leads to many irreversible changes, such as build and musculature which will cause great distress. For a MtF trans person, this invariably leads to cruel headlines and comments about brickies in drag etc. Society is not kind to people who do not 'fit' into the expected gender appearances. - Starside , London, UK, 16/6/2012 12:58"

Quote :

"well before anyone starts in with that "Too young to know for sure." Argument, the doctor is clearly prescribing "Puberty Suppressors", Not hormone replacement therapy that will grow boobs or anything like that. If you've ever met an older female to male transgender, you know that one is NEVER to old to be able to masculinize effective into a normal man, the problem and why the doctor doing this is it does not work the same way. The facial surgeries and boob jobs are not as effective as the female neonate that is destroyed by testosterone. - Supai , San Jose, 16/6/2012 04:20"

There was also a comment that was ignorant of the actual issues and sounds like something Smath74 would write to justify shoving trans people back into the closet:

Quote :

"As advanced as we think we are people are going to look back at us as monsters. I remember being a tomboy when I was a little girl. I used to tell grownups I was more boy than girl. My classmates knew it and accepted it. This wasn't sexual (we weren't sexualized as children back then) but I liked the freedom and the toys boys had back then. I wasn't a dolly playing girl. Then puberty happened and I grew out of it. I LOVE being a woman. To think some do-gooder or well-meaning parent would have destroyed my ability to become a woman and a mother greatly troubles me. People too often over-analyse normal parts of growing up. They are called phases for a reason. Please just let kids be kids and leave them alone! - Shirley , Virginia, USA, 16/6/2012 04:14"

There's a difference between "more boy than girl" and insistence that "I'm not a girl, I'm a boy!" and her use of the term "phase" is interesting: Although expressed transgender identity is rarely a phase, part of the reason to use puberty-blockers rather than going through the irreversible steps of HRT and GCS is just in case it does turn out to be a phase (the main reason of course is that without them, puberty would not only start but finish by the time the child reaches the age of majority, making future transition more difficult and less successful).

Basically I predict that just like OTC Plan B was held up by the FDA long after its suitability was made clear, there will be a long lag time from when puberty-blockers were known to be safe and effective for transgender use and when the FDA will overcome the bleatings of the bigots and recommend such use; a similar trend has happened in the UK: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8454002/Puberty-blocker-for-children-considering-sex-change.html

Quote :

"Until this month, British doctors were prevented from offering youngsters diagnosed with gender issues any medical intervention before the late stages of puberty usually at 16. But now the National Research Ethics Service has given approval to the UK's only specialist clinic for GID – the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust in London – to prescribe the drugs to youngsters from 12 years old."

BTW it's not like they're anything new: http://www.childrenshospital.org/dream/summer10/puberty-suppressing_drugs.html

Quote :

"How does puberty-suppressing therapy work? Children’s Hospital Boston doctors use drugs called GnRH analogues to temporarily suppress puberty. These drugs block the release of gonadotrophins thereby halting production of sex steroid hormones from the testes and ovaries. GnRH analogues have been used for many decades to assist in reproductive treatment for women and to stop precocious (early) puberty in children, and have not been shown to cause any major side effects."

(The other major type of puberty-blocker is an aromatase inhibitor.)

7/14/2013 9:04:35 AM

Quote :

"There was also a comment that was ignorant of the actual issues and sounds like something Smath74 would write to justify shoving trans people back into the closet:"

i've already said in this thread that I acknowledge that gender identity disorder is probably a real thing, even though it's not completely understood. I love that because I don't agree with every fringe medical treatment you propose that i'm some bigot who hates gays/trans/etc. I'm very supportive of individual freedom for the most part.

7/14/2013 12:22:09 PM

Quote :

"i've already said in this thread that I acknowledge that gender identity disorder is probably a real thing, even though it's not completely understood."

This is why you'd love to make it harder for trans people to be passable post-transition (which is exactly what happens when transition happens after puberty), thereby making them suffer more from the violent rage directed at the visibly trans.

7/15/2013 7:04:32 AM

jesus dude.

7/15/2013 2:24:28 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2416674/Leo-Waddell-transgender-boy-12-vows-fight-doctors-decision-ban-having-hormone-jabs.html

9/10/2013 11:39:22 PM

I guess that's the downside of socialized medicine (I mean real socialized medicine, not Obamacare): When your assigned doctor makes a bad call, it's hard to circumvent it.

9/13/2013 12:41:00 AM

http://www.wral.com/charlotte-leaders-lgbt-groups-tell-lawmakers-to-leave-transgender-ordinance-alone/15558793/

Quote :

"Legislative leaders and other critics say that "poses an imminent threat to public safety," contending that the ordinance would allow sexual predators to go into women's bathrooms and locker rooms."

could get hairy

3/17/2016 10:35:45 PM

sexual predators are sexual predators who aren't protected by any law

it's really that simple

3/17/2016 10:42:49 PM

Wasn't the guy that sponsored that Charlotte nonsense a convicted sex offender?

3/18/2016 1:41:42 AM

I don't really care either way, I doubt there will be competition for the urinal so worst case I'll have to wait if I need a stall, but I can see how having a man in a women's bathroom or locker room can make a woman uncomfortable.

3/20/2016 7:04:22 PM

i get why people are against this, but they aren't thinking it through. Without this law, you'd have people with beards who otherwise look just like any man forced to use a woman's bathroom because they were born female, or you'd have a person you'd never know wasn't a woman having to walk into a men's bathroom.

The ordinance just makes legal what transgender people are doing anyway. You could be seeing a person born a woman in the bathroom at your job or other businesses at not even know it right now.

It doesn't allow any random dude from walking into the woman's bathroom and facing no repurcussions.

3/21/2016 12:26:38 AM

I have always wondered...

Is there solidarity within the LBGT community? For example do most/all gays and lesbians support the agenda of the transgender community. I don't think anyone gives a shit about a dude wearing a dress but i wonder what the support of your average homosexual is regarding trans issues like "trans-women" (aka a dude in a dress) going to the womens room, chopping off dicks, and/or all the parents claiming their 6yr old daughter is really a boy.

3/21/2016 11:31:49 AM

I personally don't understand why they are all grouped under LGBT. I guess because if they were just "T" there wouldn't be enough to actually form a group. At least not one with any influence. I'm sure some gay people dislike having the negativity that comes along with the "T."

3/21/2016 12:31:54 PM

This is what I'm intrigued about!

For the most part it seems that beyond the Kim Davis born-again Christian types and those that are insecure in their own sexuality, people are at least tolerant of same-sex couples generally being present in open society (though friction rises with marriage and adoption potentially).

The "T" aspect of the group seems to be intent on breaking what are considered generally acceptable societal norms and involves psyches that some could argue if symptomatic of real emotional/mental disorders rather then being a characteristic of an individuals personality. Wearing a dress as a guy is one thing. Though the discussion of 7 yr boys, that are allegedly internally girls, using the womens room and chopping off genitals the make oneself a female is a whole lot different than 2 dudes making out in the park.

While i could understand how they see themselves as all in the same boat, defying historical societal norms, it seems that the LBG part of the group risks en-flaming a large portion of society and creating a lot of friction against achieving many of their general goals by advocating for the T part.

[Edited on March 21, 2016 at 1:28 PM. Reason : a]

3/21/2016 1:25:35 PM

a portion of LGBTs don't support bisexuals either. of course you aren't going to have complete solidarity in a group that makes up ~10% of the world.

gay people were and still are considered to be breaking societal norms. are y'all for real right now?

[Edited on March 21, 2016 at 1:31 PM. Reason : .]

3/21/2016 1:30:02 PM

Quote :

" It doesn't allow any random dude from walking into the woman's bathroom and facing no repurcussions."

how does it not?

3/21/2016 2:05:27 PM

If I go into a women's bathroom now, what will happen?

Unless I'm acting like an asshole will anything really happen?

3/24/2016 11:33:54 PM

How are you going to use the bathroom? They don't have urinals in the ladies room.

3/25/2016 8:57:55 AM

[Edited on March 25, 2016 at 9:49 AM. Reason : ^ surely you can't be *that* stupid]

3/25/2016 9:49:22 AM

Quote :

"How are you going to use the bathroom? They don't have urinals in the ladies room."

My understanding is there is a program to handle these situations, known as "Rent-A-Toy" (or "Toy-Let" or something like that, I think).

Take this with a grain of salt, however. I have only heard rumours of Shangri-La; I have never actually been there myself.

3/25/2016 10:44:29 AM

I was being somewhat facetious, but I don't consider it a stupid question. Plenty of people have plenty of questions about how this brave new world we live in will operate - most of us on here did not grow up where these norms were accepted, hell the Crying Game didn't even come out until 1992.

3/25/2016 10:51:59 AM

people with penises can still pee in toilets...? they can even sit down to pee if they want.

Quote :

"It doesn't allow any random dude from walking into the woman's bathroom and facing no repurcussions." how does it not?"

Because if youre caught creeping on women in the bathroom, and you lie about being transgender, you get charged with peeping/stalking/whatever? There was a guy was arrested in Toronto i think for creeping in the woman's room, tried to claim he was transgender, and was charged.

3/25/2016 1:38:27 PM