Quote :

"This is what's just silly, it's only a "single car solution" because it stops being a purely electric vehicle. The only reason to buy it over a Prius or Hybrid Civic is that for those first 30-40 miles you're not using any gas vs. the one gallon either normal hybrid would use. $8,000 to save $2.65 a day. "

Under existing circumstances, you are correct. However, its obvious you're not thinking long term. It amazes me people dont learn from history. Yeah, its hard to justify now. Just like the first Hybrids which were much more expensive. So is any new technology. There will always be those early adopters which will pay the penalty, so that others can pay much less a few years down the road. I'm actually not a big fan of strictly electric cars. If this were a discussion on cars that have no range extending capacity, I would be as negative as you. They will have a future, but the real future isnt really now (they arent single car solution).

If the car was priced the exact same price, or slightly more, than the standard hybrids, this would be a no brainer. We probably arent that far away from it being the case.

Prices of lithium are expected to drop considerably in the next few years. They are expecting lithium to be under $300 a kWh in the not too distant future (I think people like GM are paying 600-800 per).

I know some of you don't get it. That's fine. I'll be bookmarking this thread to call all of you out in 3-5 years, when this has really caught on.

I am sure most of you hated the Prius and thought it would never catch on. I doubt you'll admit it, however.

[Edited on October 26, 2010 at 9:42 AM. Reason : .]

10/26/2010 9:37:43 AM

^you are right. GM is betting big on the costs of batteries dropping. If they stay high, then this car will probably go away.

I loved the idea of a prius. I was almost sold on buying one, until I drove it. NO WAY I would ever own one now. When I first pulled out into traffic out of the dealer lot I thought I had the ebrake on. Its like driving a lawnmower on the highway.

10/26/2010 9:51:55 AM

I know its not for everyone. Same goes for the Volt. But they have sold over 2 million. Last year, they sold about 400k in the U.S. alone.

The Volt is coming in with huge production numbers compared to the prius. By the second year out, GM is 'expecting' to be producing more Volts than the Prius was selling in year 7 of production.

10/26/2010 9:59:32 AM

Quote :

"When I first pulled out into traffic out of the dealer lot I thought I had the ebrake on."

that's retarded...they're far from fast but this is an absurd exaggeration...it has as decent pickup as my saturn which, while not saying much, is a far cry from "durr...do you have the emergency brake on?"

it's more than enough for anyone who realizes they're driving a commuter car, not a performance sedan

10/26/2010 10:24:15 AM

^I was coming from an accord V6, and I later found I was in econ mode, switching to power mode really improved pickup. But yeah, I was looking around to see what was wrong.

Yeah, they just arent for me. I think over time you will see acceleration improve with these and then Ill give them another look. But its clearly not a big deal to some.

[Edited on October 26, 2010 at 10:41 AM. Reason : .]

10/26/2010 10:39:31 AM

that would make a big difference, then...when you have no expectations of power, no power is just fine

10/26/2010 10:45:08 AM

Quote :

"Under existing circumstances, you are correct. However, its obvious you're not thinking long term. "

It's silly to think of the Volt longterm. There's already at least one company doing the whole "electric car" thing better and cheaper and then there are a whole bunch of companies doing the hybrid thing cheaper and better.

Your whole argument was based on the fact that the Volt was some sort of "single car solution", but the fact of the matter is that it's more expensive and worse than the single car solutions that currently exist and the only thing novel about it is the fact that you use one less gallon of gas.

Had the Volt actually come out two years ago, maybe we'd be having a different conversation, but when you've got people in a $24k Civic running around getting 45MPG highway, asking them to spend $16k more for a Volt is ridiculous. There's a difference between paying a price-premium for being an early adopter and throwing money away.

10/26/2010 11:46:43 AM

Quote :

"Had the Volt actually come out two years ago, maybe we'd be having a different conversation"

That's just it. Things can change, rapidly. Let's look at it this way. The world wide economy is in a shitter right now. We are paying nearly $3 a gallon for gasoline. There are many things that 'can' happen when the economy heats back up to cause us worse headaches then what we experienced 2 years ago. I do NOT want to start a discussion on peak oil/oil supply/etc. But the possibility is very real that it get worse.

I see it as a primary means for adding some hedge against the oil question. Even if you don't believe in future oil supply issues, you should at least agree that diversification of a fueling source for automobiles is critical. Even with our taxed power production grid, we can at least add capacity from local sources.

10/26/2010 1:17:11 PM

Quote :

"I know some of you don't get it. That's fine. I'll be bookmarking this thread to call all of you out in 3-5 years, when this has really caught on. I am sure most of you hated the Prius and thought it would never catch on. I doubt you'll admit it, however."

I was on a waiting list for the 2nd gen prius FWIW.

10/26/2010 1:40:04 PM

Quote :

"I see it as a primary means for adding some hedge against the oil question. Even if you don't believe in future oil supply issues, you should at least agree that diversification of a fueling source for automobiles is critical. Even with our taxed power production grid, we can at least add capacity from local sources. "

And, again, it hedges against those concerns significantly worse than the Leaf does. Like, if you're worried about gas prices going through the roof why would you ever buy the car with 1/3 of the effective all-electric range that is also significantly more expensive?

10/26/2010 2:15:12 PM

The leaf is not a hedge. 40 miles a charge is enough to eliminate the vast majority of driving for most people. If you were to dry 40 miles a day, for 365 days a year, that would give you close to 15,000 miles you would not be using gas. And then the Volt owners still have a usable car when the charge goes out. The Leaf, while it might be a solution, is only partial, because people not going to be able to get where they want whenever they want. This is not a problem with the Volt.

People have always thought electric cars were ridiculous, not due to the fact that they are electric, but because they wonder what happens when the charge runs out. There needs to be a bridge technology, and the Volt is it.

The Leaf actually requires people to make a lifestyle change. The Volt does not.

[Edited on October 26, 2010 at 5:09 PM. Reason : .]

10/26/2010 5:07:03 PM

^+1

10/26/2010 5:56:09 PM

Quote :

"The leaf is not a hedge. 40 miles a charge is enough to eliminate the vast majority of driving for most people. If you were to dry 40 miles a day, for 365 days a year, that would give you close to 15,000 miles you would not be using gas."

And the Leaf would do exactly the same -- $8,000 cheaper.

Quote :

"The Leaf, while it might be a solution, is only partial, because people not going to be able to get where they want whenever they want. This is not a problem with the Volt."

Great, except for the fact that what the Volt does do it does at a $16k premium from a Civic Hybrid and then it proceeds to do so worse than current hybrids.

Keep in mind, that even if gas were $4 a gallon and you saved one gallon of gas a day, it'd still take you 4,000 days to recoup that premium. At the price point the Volt is coming in at, you'd be better off just getting a Leaf and an old Camry for when you decide to go road tripping.

The problem with the Volt is that, for what it is, it way too expensive. It's not "early adopter" expensive; it's "you'd have to be an idiot" expensive.

10/26/2010 6:47:44 PM

Quote :

"And the Leaf would do exactly the same -- $8,000 cheaper."

Yeah, except you better hope you remembered to charge the damned thing the night before, or when you are visiting, people dont mind running you a fucking extension cord... Oh wait, I forgot... The Leaf won't charge with a standard outlet, like the Volt, so unless you are at home, you're fucked. Not the same thing, unless you think its cool ending up on the side of the road getting towed when the juice goes out.

There was a Mini Cooper Electric vehicle pilot this past year. A good number of the participants ended up on the side of the road through-out the year. These are people that paid a lease of $800 a month to be in this pilot, and were electric saavy. Due to environmental changes, the 100 mile Cooper ended up with an effective range of 60 miles in cold weather. Do you really want to rely on that as your sole transportation?

Quote :

"The problem with the Volt is that, for what it is, it way too expensive. It's not "early adopter" expensive; it's "you'd have to be an idiot" expensive. "

You are being so pig headed about the cost. You discredit your argument quite a bit by thinking that early adopters dont often pay 2x for new technology. In just about all technology, if something is really new and different, people often pay 2x+ for the opportunity.

I think we have reached an impass, because you're just restating the same old shit over and over.
If you have something new and different, I'll respond.

10/26/2010 7:21:59 PM

Quote :

"Oh wait, I forgot... The Leaf won't charge with a standard outlet, like the Volt, so unless you are at home, you're fucked."

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/faq/list/charging#/leaf-electric-car/faq/list/charging

Quote :

"Q: Will it plug into a regular household outlet? A: It will charge on a regular 110/120V 20-Amp dedicated outlet. This is considered a "trickle charge," which means it would charge at a slower rate. For home charging, we recommend a home charging dock on a dedicated 220/240V, 40A circuit."

Quote :

"There was a Mini Cooper Electric vehicle pilot this past year. A good number of the participants ended up on the side of the road through-out the year. These are people that paid a lease of $800 a month to be in this pilot, and were electric saavy. Due to environmental changes, the 100 mile Cooper ended up with an effective range of 60 miles in cold weather. Do you really want to rely on that as your sole transportation?"

Again, for the price of the the Volt, you could get a Leaf and another car that would probably perform better than the Volt.

We're at an impasse because you fail to recognize that while the "early adoption" price might be high for some items, it's not limitless, especially when the product that you're trying to get people to adopt is so thoroughly inferior.

But hey, when the Volt actually makes it to market, we'll see just how far past year one it actually makes it.

My guess is about 40 miles.

10/26/2010 8:01:46 PM

Quote :

"You are being so pig headed about the cost. You discredit your argument quite a bit by thinking that early adopters dont often pay 2x for new technology. In just about all technology, if something is really new and different, people often pay 2x+ for the opportunity."

Prius wasnt twice as much FWIW.

10/26/2010 8:38:03 PM

^ I think it was pretty damned close. It was around 20k in 1997. A Honda Civic could be bought for 11k.

From what I read, the Prius plug-in hybrid is going to be over 40k. And let's face it, the battery pack on the Volt is about 8k. Thats the bulk of the price right there. Its not like they are making a killing on this

car. The components just cost a bundle because this has never been done before.

And you are correct on the Leaf. It will only take about 17 hours to fill it up from a standard outlet, so I guess if you dont mind sleeping at a gas station when it peter's out, that would be great.

I'm guessing the Volt is going to outsell the Leaf and every other electric car produced in the next 5 years.

[Edited on October 26, 2010 at 9:58 PM. Reason : .]

10/26/2010 9:56:06 PM

Yeah maybe a 2 door POS civic cx hatchback for 11k ( i have one...FWIW).

10/26/2010 11:47:46 PM

First generation Prius' were sold at a loss, because the cost to make them was higher than what anyone would be willing to pay for one. If Chevrolet was smart and not bankrupt, they would be selling their cars at a loss too.

10/27/2010 12:10:29 AM

^
+1

10/27/2010 12:49:47 AM

Yeah if these things develop a following the price will certainly come down.

10/27/2010 1:05:00 AM

phat

Quote :

"Starting this fall, anywhere you get a signal on your smartphone, you can have total control of your Volt. Tap away and, with the OnStar MyLink™(12), you'll be able to check the battery charge level, available range, tire pressure, remote lock and unlock and even activate the remote start to heat or cool the interior to your preferred temperature. Navigate the interactive screens of the app, and you can change how and when you want your Volt to charge. You can even set up Alerts via text or email to remind you to plug in your Volt, when charging is complete or if charging has been interrupted. The app also provides a single button to access a Volt Customer Advisor who can answer vehicle specific questions."

10/27/2010 1:06:54 AM

nissan demod the same lame feature on the leaf

10/27/2010 8:03:04 AM

FWIW, I think every generation of the Prius are so ugly looking cars. I know its aerodynamically dictated, but ugh!

Quote :

"That's just it. Things can change, rapidly. Let's look at it this way. The world wide economy is in a shitter right now. We are paying nearly $3 a gallon for gasoline. There are many things that 'can' happen when the economy heats back up to cause us worse headaches then what we experienced 2 years ago. I do NOT want to start a discussion on peak oil/oil supply/etc. But the possibility is very real that it get worse."

$3/gallon is doing pretty well, if you adjust fuel prices over the years for inflation. Not to mention my vehicles only take premium so I already pay $3/gal for fuel. It's not really a big deal to me.

I know one car doesn't fit everyone's lifestyles but for me, 40 miles on a charge isn't enough. If I do anything on a given day other than drive straight to work and then home I drive more than 40 miles. On average I drive around 17,000 miles a year so I guess that's more than most people. Then again I live in NC - it's hard not to drive a lot.

Finally, I'd like to say that a variety of energy options for automobile transportation is a good idea. Diversification is always a good thing.

[Edited on October 27, 2010 at 9:11 AM. Reason : k]

10/27/2010 9:10:34 AM

10/27/2010 2:53:42 PM

Quote :

"^ I think it was pretty damned close. It was around 20k in 1997. A Honda Civic could be bought for 11k."

Yes, but the Prius actually had a tangible benefit of getting an estimated 41 MPG combined while that Civic would've gotten a combined 34 MPG.

Flashforward to today, where you can pick up the Volt and get 1997 Civic gas mileage for 4x the price.

Quote :

"From what I read, the Prius plug-in hybrid is going to be over 40k."

Yes, but with the idea that it's going to perform better (or at least, as well as) the current Prius, which again isn't something the Volt does.

10/27/2010 2:57:14 PM

Quote :

"Yes, but the Prius actually had a tangible benefit of getting an estimated 41 MPG combined while that Civic would've gotten a combined 34 MPG. "

So what? You can't stick to an argument. Do you think the extra 10k would have been made up when fuel prices were under $2 a gallon? That seemed to be your argument earlier as the only reason to buy the car. Yet, people have bought millions of prius, and the car is at a reasonable mark-up to regular cars (something you expect as people adopt the technology).

Quote :

"Yes, but with the idea that it's going to perform better (or at least, as well as) the current Prius, which again isn't something the Volt does. "

Says who? I will be lucky if I burn any gas with the Volt with my driving habits. I'll probably average over 100 MPG if you add in the electric range I get with the once in a while gas burn. How is that not over performing the prius?

10/27/2010 3:42:36 PM

a civic in 97 outside of the cx is more than 11 grand. I don't know if I was clear when I pointed that out last time.

10/27/2010 3:49:33 PM

Quote :

"So what? You can't stick to an argument. Do you think the extra 10k would have been made up when fuel prices were under $2 a gallon? That seemed to be your argument earlier as the only reason to buy the car. Yet, people have bought millions of prius, and the car is at a reasonable mark-up to regular cars (something you expect as people adopt the technology). "

The keywords are "reasonable mark-up", which the Volt does not have.

Quote :

"Says who? I will be lucky if I burn any gas with the Volt with my driving habits. I'll probably average over 100 MPG if you add in the electric range I get with the once in a while gas burn. How is that not over performing the prius?"

Please explain to me the math behind how you are going to get 100 MPG. Of course, even if you could, you'd still wind up going under 100 miles, at which point you should've just bought the Leaf anyway.

10/27/2010 3:55:53 PM

http://www.carsdirect.com/1997/honda/civic

I was using this as a guide. I am having difficulty finding the range for a Prius, but quite honestly, if what someone mentioned above is true, that the Prius was a money loser, then it isnt fair to compare the Prius/competition price ratio to the Volt/price ratio, since the Volt will be making a small profit (apparently, very small). So its not worth arguing.

There isnt any real comparisons you can use for what the Volt is doing. Its just too different. Too early to be able to determine if its going to be a success, if the prices are going to come down, and if it will be widely adopted. But if you think its going to fail due to pricing alone, your wrong. If the car fails to be adopted, I suspect it will be to 1) the price not coming down over time, and 2) the price of gasoline/oil stabalizing or decreasing for a long period of time [dont think this is going to happen].

10/27/2010 4:00:28 PM

Quote :

"The keywords are "reasonable mark-up", which the Volt does not have. "

Thats in the eye of the beholder. I suspected if they wanted to sell 400k Volts every year, you're right. There wouldnt be that market. But since they are trying to sell under 50k for the first couple of years, with limited quantity and the ridiculous amount of cost to develop the support infrastructure for this car as well as paying large premiums for components NEVER mass produced for cars, it isnt unreasonable for them to cost 2x as much as a comparable combustion car.

Quote :

"Please explain to me the math behind how you are going to get 100 MPG. Of course, even if you could, you'd still wind up going under 100 miles, at which point you should've just bought the Leaf anyway. "

Jesus. You just dont get it. The Leaf is not a substitute for the Volt. Stop even bringing it up. If everyone had limitless cash, and they were all told they needed to drive the Leaf tomorrow, the car simply won't allow them to do everything they need to do. It simply doesnt have the range. On the other hand, they are all given the Volt, they'll be able to drive exactly as they do now. No difference, except that the vast majority will not use a drop of gas, because according to studies by GM, that vast majority of America drives 40 miles or less a day.

However, thankfully for the Volt owners, if they want to drive 101 miles, they can. If you are a Leaf owner, you can't.

And how do you get 100 MPG? If you burn only 1 gallon during the 100 miles you travel over several days, which is very possible, thats how you get 100 MPG.

The EPA hasnt exactly figured out how to handle this yet. How do you get these numbers for hybrid cars? How do you compare them to electric only? I don't know. But for me, the 'effective' MPG for a plug-in hybrid is best, based on normal driving habits. For electric cars, let the number be range per kWh. Thats more important in cars that will become a road hazard when the juice runs out.

Obviously, if you drive 100 miles a day, with 60 of those miles being on gas, the effective MPG for you is going to be a whole lot lower. But if you are like the majority of American's, you probably wont burn any gas during your normal travels, and it will push your effective range much higher.


[Edited on October 27, 2010 at 4:13 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2010 4:10:10 PM

So the vast majority of people don't drive more than 40 miles per day, but ON THE OFF CHANCE they drive more than twice that distance they should spend an additional $8,000?

Again, if the vast majority of America drives less than 40 miles a day, why would the vast majority of America spend $8,000 more on a car that does the exact same thing. It's not like it's a BMW or Lexus. It's a Chevy.

Quote :

"And how do you get 100 MPG? If you burn only 1 gallon during the 100 miles you travel over several days, which is very possible, thats how you get 100 MPG."

If you're traveling over several days and only going 100 miles on gas, chances are you probably would've also had time to stop and charge your Leaf - then you wouldn't have used any gas.

10/27/2010 4:29:42 PM

Ok. You're not making your argument any better. Just agreeing to disagree at this point, because I'm not wasting anymore time on you.

This is a fair review that touches on a lot of issues:
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2010/10/first-drive-2011-chevrolet-volt-2/

10/27/2010 4:37:40 PM

Quote :

"I know its not for everyone. Same goes for the Volt. But they have sold over 2 million. Last year, they sold about 400k in the U.S. alone. The Volt is coming in with huge production numbers compared to the prius. By the second year out, GM is 'expecting' to be producing more Volts than the Prius was selling in year 7 of production."

I'm not sure where you came up with this? To date (since going on sale in 2000) there are roughly 815,000 Priuses in the US. 400,000 were most definitely not sold in the US in 2009. In fact sales have declined the last 2 years. 2007 was the peak at 181,221 units. In 2009 Toyota sold 139,682 units. In fact through 2010 Toyota has reduced production.

All first generation Priuses were sold at a loss. At introduction they were roughly $16,500 and the true cost was more or less double that. Starting with the 2nd generation they finally broke even.

I found all this info on Wikipedia, so take that for what it's worth.

[Edited on October 27, 2010 at 4:46 PM. Reason : wrong year]

10/27/2010 4:44:05 PM

Quote :

"Ok. You're not making your argument any better. Just agreeing to disagree at this point, because I'm not wasting anymore time on you. This is a fair review that touches on a lot of issues: http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2010/10/first-drive-2011-chevrolet-volt-2/"

Oh, an article from Detroit about a GM car?!

Let me get right on that!

Oh, and good call on giving up everything you typed in the previous post. It was complete and utter idiocy and probably wise to distance yourself from it.

Luckily you've got that range-extending gas tank!

10/27/2010 4:49:18 PM

That was my bad. I looked at the 'total' on the same wikipedia page. They have sold 2 million world wide.

The fact that the cars have declined in the U.S. in the last 2 years is a no brainer. Pretty much all cars have declined in the past 2 years because a lot of people are out of work. I dont think it is a reflection on the car, but on the economy.

Quote :

"Oh, and good call on giving up everything you typed in the previous post. It was complete and utter idiocy and probably wise to distance yourself from it. "

Huh? The only idiocy I am trying to distance myself from at the moment is you.

[Edited on October 27, 2010 at 4:51 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2010 4:49:40 PM

Quote :

"I dont think it is a reflection on the car, but on the economy."

Well, it's a good thing Chevy isn't trying to get people into an outrageously overpriced car, then.

10/27/2010 5:03:10 PM

I agree with Stein here.

The Volt just doesn't cut it.

I'm 1000x more interested in the Leaf. It's effectively 13k cheaper for me after taxes, and would account for 95%+ of my driving time.

We can keep a second car (Subaru Forester) for trips and skiing and camping, which gets decent mileage and can actually be used to haul stuff (people, gear, trailer).

I just hope Nissan releases their Level3 chargers in the US. 30 minutes recharge time to 80% capacity, means 30 minutes gets you ~80 miles.

10/27/2010 9:50:12 PM

I just feel like the architecture of the volt is flawed. Sure a larger battery will take you farther (and the leaf farther yet) but when it runs out (which chevy is banking on by this design) the gas to charge the bank and provide electricity for an electric motor obviously doesnt cut it. Its apparntly worse than modern four cylinders in this mode.

To me its a really expensive bridge between the leaf and a prius. Jack of all , master of none? If its priced comparable to a prius or an insight its not so bad. What technology/production advancement makes the volt cheaper to produce that doesnt carry over to the other hybrids?

10/27/2010 10:11:09 PM

qntmoverlord posted this in the electric cars thread...it's moderately relevant

http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1050863_electric-car-drives-375-miles-at-55-mph-recharges-in-6-minu

10/28/2010 7:52:26 AM

There are absolutely still a lot of advances in battery technology and other areas of storage (possibly super capacitors) that could make this a lot better than it currently it. I think with all the electric cars coming on the road in the next 3 years, we'll finally start to see the kind of advances that will make these cars mainstream.

10/28/2010 9:18:01 AM

[Edited on October 28, 2010 at 9:18 AM. Reason : double]

10/28/2010 9:18:37 AM

Quote :

"I just feel like the architecture of the volt is flawed. Sure a larger battery will take you farther (and the leaf farther yet) but when it runs out (which chevy is banking on by this design) the gas to charge the bank and provide electricity for an electric motor obviously doesnt cut it. Its apparntly worse than modern four cylinders in this mode"

That was the very first question I had when the concept came out. So far I figured that will be mitigated by running the engine at high RPM/peak efficiency at all time as soon as the battery charge starts getting low. When the load on the battery from the electric motor is low (cruising at fixed medium speed, decelerating, and sitting at a light/in traffic), the gas engine spinning at peak capacity will be able to charge the battery pack just enought to juice it for the time of peak demand (acceleration/high speed crusing). And for it to be able to cruise at hight speed for extended amounts of time they have added the mechanical linkage to minimize the energy loss and be able to use 60-70 HP at the wheels to maintain the 60-70 MPH needed for interstate. Obviously, I have not performed the calculations to see if that would all work out, but I hope the engineers in GM did.

Also, great job on that commercial. This will probably be the strongest selling point for the Volt vs the other electric cars in the near future.

Noen is correct in the sense that 13k difference will buy you a nice used second car if you want a one just for extended trips, but there are segments of population that to not have room or the desire to keep two vehicles. The volt will do much better with people living in metropolitan areas. It simply suits their needs better and they need one all-around car. That's why it is released in those areas first, and by the time it is released county-wide, the price should decrease as market develops and parts/betteery suppliers heat up competition.

[Edited on October 28, 2010 at 9:48 AM. Reason : .]

10/28/2010 9:41:23 AM

Quote :

"There are absolutely still a lot of advances in battery technology and other areas of storage (possibly super capacitors) that could make this a lot better than it currently it. "

they said the same thing 5 years ago and it wasn't true then either.

10/28/2010 9:50:55 AM

Well, in fairness, demand generally drives innovation. There has not been the demand for large capacity lithium cell batteries. This will drive the need for innovations in both the battery field and competing storage technology. Having vaporware cars doesn't drive people to focus research on an application that doesn't exist.

10/28/2010 10:20:27 AM

yes. The volt is the first and only time anyone has wanted high density portable energy storage,

10/28/2010 10:43:11 AM

^ Need to restate everything I just typed in this post...
1) High density does not equal high capacity. Two different issues, with different challenges.
2) The problems and costs associated with building high capacity batteries with the Volt are entirely different than that of portable electronics (you can't just go out an buy another battery/ it has to support many more cycles than portable batteries (higher quality design to make cells last).
3) I think the large scale builds of practically applied large capacity batteries will drive advancements in battery design not needed as badly in portable electronics.

[Edited on October 28, 2010 at 12:34 PM. Reason : .]

10/28/2010 12:24:48 PM

Quote :

"I just feel like the architecture of the volt is flawed. Sure a larger battery will take you farther (and the leaf farther yet) but when it runs out (which chevy is banking on by this design) the gas to charge the bank and provide electricity for an electric motor obviously doesnt cut it. Its apparntly worse than modern four cylinders in this mode. "

That's my sentiment. The reason gas motors in vehicles are so inefficient is because they have to be capable of running at a variety of RPM ranges. It's hard to tune a motor to do that and be fuel efficient. We design power plants and base load generators to run at one constant speed and be as efficient as possible doing so. Since the motor in the Volt is only driving a generator, it only needs to be designed to crank, get up to operating speed, and stay there as efficiently as possible. This car should be capable of getting 100mpg with current constant-speed motor technology. You could really increase the efficiency of this vehicle with a small diesel generator, because you could max out the motor and not have any worry about low load conditions causing ring problems and carbon buildup.

Is the motor physically connected to the drivetrain on the volt and using the electric motor as the electric generator? If so, that's the big problem with the design. An electric car with gas generator backup needs to truly be a gas backup unit separate from the drivetrain. This is where fuel cells would really come in handy, because you wouldn't need an electric motor to feed the batteries.

I see the Volt as a huge step in the right direction, and it's the car that every other manufacturer in the world should be building. I just feel like the actual design has been poorly executed, which is no surprise coming from GM right now.

10/28/2010 12:56:33 PM

^ It was a cost problem. They wanted to put in a Diesel from the start. That was what was rumored. Even a turbo was mentioned. The problem came down to cost, as I recall. It would have made the car that much more expensive, and it is a design change they may be able to introduce as the price to manufacture the car comes down.

The engine as it connects/does not connect to the drive train is quite complex. I am not going to articulate it probably correctly, but this is as best as I can state it... During the electric range, the GAS engine has zero connection to the drive train. The electric motor propels the car. When the electric mode goes to a 30% charge remaining, the generator cuts on. Under certain loads, the engine will connect to the drive train and provide assistance to drive the wheels. I suspect this is because the maximum output of the engine to charge the battery will not be enough to maintain the state of charge on the battery, so it has to convert some of that energy to the drivetrain. I also believe that the engine mostly stays at the same RPM range, but will increase its speed if the driver gets a bit more sportly, and more current is needed to keep the batteries at a 30% state.

So, as one article states, the car is electric some of the time, and a hybrid some of the time.

One other interesting item on the Volt is that it only uses 10.5 kWh of the 16 kWh battery. It uses the remaining cells unused, so that as the battery deteriorates with cycles, the software opens up more cells so that effective range isnt diminished. I think I read yesterday (maybe in the article I mentioned above), that after 8 years, they will expect a diminished range of 10-30%. I suspect the Leaf will be far worse off, because I believe they have to use all 22 kWh to get the highly variable range that drivers will get with the car. That will start to diminish, I suspect pretty soon after delivery.
For me, although its not at a great price, the car is the only option for me if I want a single car solution and drive electric. I wouldnt even consider the Leaf. I dont want 2 cars to do a single function (unless the second car is going to be somethng like a truck). its silly to buy a Leaf, albeit cheaper, just to have to buy and insure a second car, because the leaf can't do the job.

[Edited on October 28, 2010 at 1:18 PM. Reason : .]

10/28/2010 1:14:28 PM

So the all electric range is really only 28 miles?

EVEN BETTER!

10/28/2010 1:59:45 PM