why do you think it was Russia who did that?

all of our voter information is up for sale, including SSNs. it could have been anyone

7/18/2017 12:52:59 PM

I come to this thread for shitting on Trump, I stay for the rampant whataboutism.

7/18/2017 12:53:59 PM

i'm not surprised that word has become so popular in a time when self-reflection is frowned upon

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=whataboutism

7/18/2017 1:00:29 PM

It's the "optics" or "normalize" of 2017.

I should have parsed my words more carefully. You're correct. It was probably Russia from what I've read but certainly not nearly as conclusive as the other stuff (DNC/Podesta).

In any case, to bring back on topic, this is basically a "go fuck yourself" to his base:

Quote :

"Remarks from Trump moments ago: "Let Obamacare fail. It'll be a lot easier." "We're not going to own it. I'm not going to own it.""

Yet again. More evidence of him not giving one zero fuck about anyone but himself.

7/18/2017 1:10:43 PM

3 nays now puts "repeal only" in the morgue. It's dead. Epic fail for Trump and the GOP!

[Edited on July 18, 2017 at 1:14 PM. Reason : .]

7/18/2017 1:14:24 PM

Quote :

"WTF ...allow the Russians to keep probing our cyber? That's some fucking Neville chamberlain shit right there."

Ceding territory to Nazi Germany is just as bad as ceding John Podestas Twitter handle to Russian teenagers? That's a spicy take.

Quote :

" That said, I do think an attempt to influence an election via any means is an attack on our sovereignty to a degree..."

Russian oligarchs shouldn't be allowed to sway public opinion during an election! Only AMERICAN oligarchs should be able to do that!

Look, if you give a legit damn about election integrity, then Russian "hackers" reading Podesta's emails should be pretty fucking low on your list, and Trump's attempt to get state voter roll information and the onslaught of voter suppression should be waaaaaaay fucking higher.

7/18/2017 2:10:39 PM

Democrats would rather thump their chest in front of a nuclear power rather than ask John Podesta to change his gmail password from "pizzagateboylove" to "P1zzaGateBoy<3"

7/18/2017 2:20:09 PM

Quote :

"if you guys are so concerned about our "sovereignty", why weren't you up in arms about the actual disenfranchisement that happened in the primaries?"

this is nuts

7/18/2017 2:33:43 PM

Quote :

"Look, if you give a legit damn about election integrity, then Russian "hackers" reading Podesta's emails should be pretty fucking low on your list, and Trump's attempt to get state voter roll information and the onslaught of voter suppression should be waaaaaaay fucking higher."

I don't get this. I made it clear in the post you quoted that if this was JUST about Podesta it wouldn't be an issue. I also am one of the few who have posted about Kobach/Pence's little witch hunt. In fact both of those were in the last two posts I made on previous page.

7/18/2017 2:47:23 PM

^^
it is totally nuts

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/nyregion/board-of-elections-brooklyn-votes.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/ohio-voter-purge/485357/

7/18/2017 2:49:31 PM

I mean, I don't know what to say. I've been pretty consistently against disenfranchisement on TWW. Argued against voter roll purges, IDs (unless provided free of cost to all) and all other kinds.

Voter suppression is a far bigger issue than voter fraud.

[Edited on July 18, 2017 at 2:59 PM. Reason : Also for re-enfranchising felons who served their sentence]

7/18/2017 2:58:19 PM

plenty of people, including myself, have posted plenty about voter suppression efforts

I was assume you were comparing Russian meddling with the DNC preferring Clinton over Bernie

7/18/2017 3:01:17 PM

^^ Not attacking you personally. I just think it's crazy when people use the fear of a foreign state (and by association, foreign peoples) to be the rallying cry to "protect democracy" even though the real threat has, and remains to be the domestic ruling elite. It takes people's eye off the ball as we further slip into authoritarian rule.

The Russia scandal should bring up obvious parallels to McCarthyism, and it's really sad to see leaders on "my side" engaging in it just so they can advance their own careers and they should stop. This election has turned the entire political rule upside down and people are just picking teams rather than picking issues, and it delays the process of actual reform.

[Edited on July 18, 2017 at 3:04 PM. Reason : ]

7/18/2017 3:02:34 PM

Quote :

"The Russia scandal should bring up obvious parallels to McCarthyism, and it's really sad to see leaders on "my side" engaging in it just so they can advance their own careers and they should stop. "

This is exactly why it's frustrating so many people are buying into the story. Even if it is all true, it's not surprising or worth starting a feud with Russia. It's a show put on by the Democrats, and that's why it's frustrating people are jumping on the train and shoveling coal into the fire.

At risk of going full JCE, I blame the media. We read/comment on the news, and the news is Russia. But you can choose not to get invested in a blown-up story.

[Edited on July 18, 2017 at 3:14 PM. Reason : .]

7/18/2017 3:11:49 PM

Quote :

"I just think it's crazy when people use the fear of a foreign state (and by association, foreign peoples) to be the rallying cry to "protect democracy" even though the real threat has, and remains to be the domestic ruling elite. It takes people's eye off the ball as we further slip into authoritarian rule."

I have not personally seen anyone demonizing the Russian people. Everyone knows it's Putin and his cronies running everything in that country and calling the shots. No one has called for a physical strike against Russia, no one has blamed the Russian people, only Russian intelligence.

Now, why are you distinguishing between domestic and foreign elites? Their money flows effortlessly across national borders, and therefore so do their politics (except the ones we've sanctioned, they've had some trouble moving money. Although shell companies and money laundering have seemingly kept them going). Now we have a nexus of Russian Intelligence, UK billionaires, and US billionaires working to influence a US election and we still don't even understand how effective parts of their campaign were. Once elected we got a cabinet with the most billionaires in it ever and the vast majority of proposed legislation has been an elite's wet dream. You have to consider the possibility that Russian intelligence isn't acting on behalf of the security of the Russian people, but is instead acting for those elites in Russia who are having trouble moving their money and suffering under a mediocre economy.

I keep saying that there are MANY rich people in this country that would love to see the US evolve to something more like Russia, where the government ensures they all stay rich AF, all the poors are kept in line, and any criticisms can be dealt with by pushing people out of hotel windows. Russian elites and American elites want the exact same thing from this country and when it suits them they are willing to work together.

I just see the election of Trump as the intersection of a multitude of political issues in the US. Attacking the most glaring issue (Russian meddling), that's easy for the public to understand and tends to galvanize them more, doesn't mean we are precluding the problem of the rich running politics. They're totally related.

If nothing else, impeaching and then prosecuting Trump (assuming hard evidence exists) shows that even the most important man in America right now (shudder) is not above the judicial system.

7/18/2017 5:54:32 PM

Quote :

"I keep saying that there are MANY rich people in this country that would love to see the US evolve to something more like Russia, where the government ensures they all stay rich AF, all the poors are kept in line"

this is bonkers. the US paved the way for modernized oligarchy decades ago. the Russians learned from us.

7/18/2017 6:48:04 PM

Perhaps they learned from us, but wouldn't you say the brand of Oligarchy they've developed into is several shades worse than where the US currently is?

Don't get me wrong. The US absolutely has her problems and I point them out on this website all day long. But isn't there a tier, which we could easily slide to, where a lot of countries reside that are clearly further down the path?

I mean just look at the last election. We had a kinda questionable one with all these shenanigans (including Dem primary!) but most sensible people accept that Trump won. Most people agree the votes were counte and tallied. We had a pretty peaceful transfer of power. Now compare that to Russia where Putin has been the de facto leader of Russia since when? Like 2002ish? He magically gets 85% of the vote every time? RIIIGGHHHTTTT.

7/18/2017 7:15:04 PM

The Ruskies haven't learned the cold art of managed democracy quite like their capitalist foes in the west.

The top 1% of Americans (less than 400 people) have more combined wealth than the bottom 90%. The bottom 90% also carry about 75% off all the debt.

That's an oligarchy. We just refer to them as "business leaders" in this country. Rolls off the tongue better, I suppose.

7/18/2017 7:28:14 PM

Quote :

"At risk of going full JCE, I blame the media. We read/comment on the news, and the news is Russia. But you can choose not to get invested in a blown-up story."

It's bias towards clicks. It's why Trump WH palace intrigue gets so many stories and why Bill Clinton getting a blowjob was. The constant Trump lies about all things Russia also add to it, likely by his design. To be fair, though, this media obsession for links has also led to some good with BLM and some real conversations about overzealous law enforcement that otherwise wouldn't have happened on the scale it has (of course Jeff Sessions is going to make sure it's several orders of magnitude worse).

There is a huge difference between what you said about an obsessive media story, though, and the JCE "it's all fake" nonsense.

[Edited on July 18, 2017 at 7:34 PM. Reason : X]

7/18/2017 7:31:50 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/18/politics/trump-putin-g20/index.html

Quote :

"Coons said his source suggested Trump got up and went over to sit down and speak with Putin "for a very long period of time." Coons said Trump didn't bring a US translator and relied on Putin's, which the senator called a "basic failure in terms of national security protocol.""

7/18/2017 7:38:44 PM

Quote :

"The Ruskies haven't learned the cold art of managed democracy quite like their capitalist foes in the west."

I think you underestimate how many of them are actually deeply unhappy about the current system in the motherland and wish they could do something about it. They understand precisely how democracy can work- it just doesn't in Russia. A lot of people in China feel the same way. We bitch a lot about how brutal the police and government are here, but really, we have it way easier than a lot of places.

Most Eastern Europeans I've met (and by this I mean people from the former USSR now living in the US) think Russia, and Moscow in particular, is an absolute shithole and they think the rest of Europe sucks too if you're even remotely interested in making money. They'd love to bring their families over with them, but they realize the older generation is stuck in the past and aren't willing to change, so they leave. The ones that can't, wish they could. Not everyone is smart enough to figure out how to make the move though.

In fact, Eastern Europeans are fleeing Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, etc in droves for the US because they figured out they have marketable skills (i.e software engineering) that can make them bank.

When most Americans think of 'illegal immigration', the first thing that comes to mind are Hispanics snatching up all the minimum wage jobs, NOT highly skilled white Europeans working at tech companies.

The reality is that tons of them are overstaying their visas and taking up valuable tech jobs in the process, but because they come to the US highly educated, multilingual, and work white collar jobs, they blend in better and fly under the radar. They also work their asses off to assimilate from the second they get here, because they sure as hell don't ever want to go back.

So, no. I don't think Russians are as oblivious about Western democracy as you seem to think they are.



[Edited on July 18, 2017 at 9:21 PM. Reason : .]

7/18/2017 9:18:44 PM

I don't think you understood my point. The term "managed democracy" has a specific meaning.

7/18/2017 9:53:57 PM

OK, so you're talking about a "guided democracy" then. I hadn't seen the term "managed democracy" before, so yeah, I wasn't really seeing your point. I get it now.

7/18/2017 10:09:04 PM

Quote :

"The top 1% of Americans (less than 400 people)"

do what now?

7/18/2017 10:43:30 PM

I'm glad JESUSHCHRIST has carried the torch and brought my discussion points from the Russia thread to this one where they can be addressed without dtownral shutting everything down.


As for UJUSTWAIT

The US is more appealing to Europeans because you have the advantage of apartheid white privilege (even as an immigrant) to go along with the "opportunity of capitalism". They don't get a head start in most European countries because everyone is on a level playing field and has to earn their way up.

7/18/2017 11:14:32 PM

Donna Brazile (former DNC chair):

Quote :

"The communists are now dictating the terms of the debate"

https://twitter.com/donnabrazile/status/887331637998096384


Paul Begala (former Clinton Advisor):

Quote :

"We should be debating how many sanctions we should put on Russia, or whether or not we should blow up the KGB.."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyicuxcUsAQ

7/19/2017 1:28:05 AM

^^I'm not disagreeing with most of what you said, but calling the rest of Europe an "even playing field" is a joke.

Lots of Eastern Europeans want to move to Canada and Australia as their first choice, but immigration is actually even stricter there, so they end up settling for the US- particularly NYC, SF, LA and where major job centers are. NZ is an option as well, but nobody seems to be biting, despite how easy they're making the process.

It's definitely nice to have an invisible knapsack to take with you across the globe, and you can't exactly fault them for wanting to use their skills and abilities in a place where they'll be rewarded financially. They've got capitalism down pat, and democracy is just icing on the cake for some of them.

Sure, if you don't speak decent English, suck at your job, or are physically unattractive, you'll encounter subtle/not-so-subtle forms of discrimination in most places around US. But being white and Christian-ish in this country is like drawing a face card. Most Americans couldn't identify Ukraine on a map to save their lives away, so when they hear "I'm from Eastern Europe" it's not like they even know where these folks are coming from.

And FWIW, I'm not saying all this stuff about Eastern Europeans because I don't like them. I happen to be dating one.





[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 1:44 AM. Reason : .]

7/19/2017 1:34:50 AM

What/who to believe

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-kushner-qatar-saudi-arabia-failed-business-deal-a7836771.html

Trump’s crusade against Qatar isn’t about terrorism – it’s revenge for a failed business deal

Was Qatar singled out for punishment because it cosies up to Iran and is the world’s biggest supporter of terrorism? Or was it because it failed to back The Family?

7/19/2017 2:21:21 AM

Quote :

"If a state doesn't provide voter data, Trump says, "one has to wonder what they're worried about ... there's something, there always is.""

This is nonsensical, hypocritical and ridiculous. And probably will lead to widespread disenfranchisement.

7/19/2017 11:40:40 AM

Quote :

"Donna Brazile (former DNC chair): Quote : "The communists are now dictating the terms of the debate" https://twitter.com/donnabrazile/status/887331637998096384"

This is incredible.

7/19/2017 11:47:58 AM

"Leaders of the Democratic party are warmongering!!!"

*Goes on to quote people who are no longer leaders of a goddamn thing*.

At least JCE tried harder with his trolling, this is grade C at best.

7/19/2017 11:50:10 AM

Does Donna know what communism is?

Personally, I find this grotesque voter commission far more important than what the ex interim head of the DNC is tweeting but Greenwald gonna Greenwald.

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 12:09 PM. Reason : X]

7/19/2017 11:58:01 AM

^^
really?

http://www.brazileassociates.com/?page_id=2

Quote :

"She is currently on the board of the National Democratic Institute (NDI), the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation, and the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies."

pretty sure she's still a high level operative for the Democrats!

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 12:15 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2017 12:14:53 PM

She has literally zero credibility or clout with the Democratic party after the shit show that was the 2016 election. Not even hacks like me give a damn what she says. Her provocative tweeting is nothing but a cry for attention at this point. Again, you're gonna have to try harder.

I mean my god, look at the responses to that tweet, nothing but ridicule.

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 12:24 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2017 12:23:45 PM

It's such a stupid assertion that methinks she be trollin'

7/19/2017 1:25:23 PM

.

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 1:42 PM. Reason : whoops ]

7/19/2017 1:42:10 PM

Shrike is a perfect case study for "The Iron Law of Institutions"


He's perfectly willing to dismiss anyone who was a major player for the DNC in the 2016 election as being "not credible," and pretend that they no longer represent the current direction of the party. But he's also completely unwilling to let new blood move the institution in a new direction. Hence, the same players within the party maintain their power, even as the institution itself crumbles under their stewardship.

There is no point in trying to reform the Democratic party from within if his mentality is indicative of the party at large. Which it is. Time to move on, as he and others like him are actually a liability to the politics of reform.

7/19/2017 1:50:48 PM

Quote :

" Personally, I find this grotesque voter commission far more important than what the ex interim head of the DNC is tweeting but Greenwald gonna Greenwald."

And you are absolutely correct. But the problem is this: High ranking and influential democrats would rather spend their time fearmongering about Russia because they think it is politically expedient to their mission of regaining power, rather than resisting the current administration's desire to suppress the vote. They care more about regaining their seats than they do about fighting bad policy.


This is a problem.

7/19/2017 1:57:58 PM

Blah blah blah, all I see is the same bullshit proselytizing you people have been posting ad-nauseum since your lord and savior lost a primary. Meanwhile, high ranking and influential Democrats just successfully defeated an effort to rip healthcare away from millions, which will be a much larger issue going into future elections than anything related to Russia. Get over yourself.

7/19/2017 2:18:54 PM

Quote :

"high ranking and influential Democrats just successfully defeated an effort to rip healthcare away from millions"

high ranking and influential Democrats have also successfully defeated efforts to give healthcare to everyone in the united states. consistently.

7/19/2017 2:25:27 PM

^^Lost a primary.

Remind me again who lost the general? You can't win without the Left. That should be painfully apparent by now. Keep dismissing the Left and watch your party continue to lose influence.

It's incredible that you can simultaneously lose an election to the most hated politician of all time and still consider yourself a political know-it-all.

You are on a rudderless ship and you don't even realize it.

7/19/2017 2:29:29 PM

Maybe, but at least I'm on a ship. You folks are just standing on the shore whining about hard it is to acquire lumber.

7/19/2017 2:53:04 PM

Quote :

"Maybe, but at least I'm on a ship. You folks are just standing on the shore whining about hard it is to acquire lumber."

That was beautiful.

Iron Law of Institutions: The people who control institutions care first and foremost about theirpower within the institution rather than the power of the institution itself. Thus, they would rather the institution "fail" while they remain in power within the institution than for the institution to "succeed" if that requires them to lose power within the institution.

7/19/2017 2:57:52 PM

Quote :

"high ranking and influential Democrats have also successfully defeated efforts to give healthcare to everyone in the united states. consistently."

I think the appetite is getting there for this, though, at least. Even Al fucking Gore is on board. Shame they won't be able to do anything since they suck at winning elections.

All we need is Bernie to get in a room alone with Trump, compliment him and tell him single payer is the way to go and Trump will be on board. It's sort of nice that the President is basically a dog wanting a treat.

7/19/2017 2:59:18 PM

^^

Quote :

"Blah blah blah, all I see is the same bullshit proselytizing you people have been posting ad-nauseum since your lord and savior lost a primary. "

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 3:00 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2017 3:00:12 PM

Don't forget to plug your ears

7/19/2017 3:01:33 PM

https://twitter.com/mmurraypolitics/status/887745357899337728

This is bananas. And bizarre because if he is saying we can never know if HRC won the last popular vote (she did) then how could we possibly know Trump won MI, PA and WI and the electoral college (he did).

I really, really hope this is just a response to Trump's insecurities but it certainly seems a lot more sinister.

7/19/2017 3:08:23 PM

Quote :

"I think the appetite is getting there for this, though, at least."

Not in California. The single payer option for California was just roadblocked by the Speaker of the House Assembly (a Democrat)

Quote :

"A high-profile effort to establish a single-payer healthcare system in California sputtered on Friday when Assembly Speaker Anthony Rendon (D-Paramount) decided to shelve the proposal."

http://www.latimes.com/politics/essential/la-pol-ca-essential-politics-updates-assembly-speaker-calls-single-payer-1498261105-htmlstory.html

7/19/2017 3:41:14 PM

The main obstacle to single payer isn't Democrats or Republicans, it's the 150+ million people who currently get their health insurance through their employer and are mostly satisfied with it. Remember, a major goal of Obamacare was to expand coverage without damaging the employer coverage market, something it was largely successful at doing. In fact, it was almost too successful as it was originally estimated that roughly 10 million people would switch from their employer plans to the newly subsidized individual market on the exchanges. Instead that number was basically zero.

Furthermore, those 150+ million people are currently subsidizing the 40+ million on Medicare via payroll taxes. It doesn't take a math whiz to see how the numbers just don't add up if you literally do "Medicare-for-all". This doesn't even begin to get into how the entire population will be subject to the health care rationing only Medicaid enrollees are currently subject to. Do I personally believe the positives outweigh the negatives? Sure, but I'm just one dude. This is why adding a public option to the exchanges is a smarter path forward, show people the benefits of a single payer system in an incremental fashion rather than a wholesale upheaval. Even Bernie agrees on this point now.

7/19/2017 3:42:47 PM

Yes. The capitalist model of insurance is standing in the way of universal healthcare.

That is exactly why those of us on the left oppose our current model of commodity driven solutions

7/19/2017 3:51:59 PM