Quote :

"The main obstacle to single payer isn't Democrats or Republicans, it's the 150+ million people who currently get their health insurance through their employer and are mostly satisfied with it"

No, it really isn't.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/186527/americans-government-health-plans-satisfied.aspx

http://www.gallup.com/poll/191504/majority-support-idea-fed-funded-healthcare-system.aspx

Quote :

"Furthermore, those 150+ million people are currently subsidizing the 40+ million on Medicare via payroll taxes. It doesn't take a math whiz to see how the numbers just don't add up if you literally do "Medicare-for-all"."

It blows my mind that a "liberal" could be this ignorant on how single-payer works.

http://www.pnhp.org/single_payer_resources/Myths-and-Facts-on-single-payer.pdf

7/19/2017 4:03:23 PM

^ He's a capitalist first. Liberal second.

Poor people dying from a lack of access to healthcare isn't a moral problem to him, because he doesn't want to confront a system that enriches insurance CEO's as unemployed parents watch their children die of cancer. He doesn't want to confront this system because tying healthcare to employment is a means test to help decide who should live and who should fuck off and die

7/19/2017 4:15:20 PM

"What you posted was totally wrong."

*Post a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the points I posted and completely ignores what I actually said*

You folks are adorable, really. And yes, I am a capitalist first because you can't fund liberal social policies without the tax revenue generated by capitalism. Shocking, I know.

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 5:13 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2017 5:13:33 PM

If you are a capitalist on healthcare, then there really is no point in continuing to argue with you on this.

If your only solutions to providing healthcare to citizens are band-aid adjustments to a for-profit model, then you are not an ally in this fight and are a liability to the cause of universal coverage

7/19/2017 5:27:23 PM

Quote :

"*Post a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the points I posted and completely ignores what I actually said*"

so you didn't take the time to read what i posted, or you're a troll

either way, you're a waste of time at this point. keep up the good fight and enjoy life from your ivory tower.

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 5:30 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2017 5:29:51 PM

^x5 your "myths and facts" brochure was laughable. It completely sidestepped the issue that Shrike was hitting at.

Quote :

"The main obstacle to single payer isn't Democrats or Republicans, it's the 150+ million people who currently get their health insurance through their employer and are mostly satisfied with it. "

Quote :

"Myth: National health insurance would require large new taxes. Fact: No increase in total health spending is needed to finance single payer. The increase in taxes required to finance national health insurance would be fully offset by a reduction in out-of-pocket costs and premiums."

they claim that national health insurance requiring large new taxes is a myth, and then rephrase their answer such that the taxes will be less than the total healthcare costs. So large new taxes actually will need to be paid that used to be paid in the form of health insurance costs by the employer, but more efficiently and at lower total cost. Great! so who's paying that tax - the employer or the individual? If it's tied to the employer, then you're still encouraging employers to game the system with part-time and temp positions to try to dodge the federal mandates. If it's the employee, then how do you get the employer to redirect money that was going to the insurance companies in a subsidized fashion to the employee's paycheck so they can pay the extra taxes?

I think most working Americans would view a change from their current medical insurance situation towards single payer as an opportunity for either their government or their employer to fuck them over. And for the most part, they'd be right to make that assumption. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" and "I'm from the corporate headquarters and I'm here to help" are cringe worthy for a reason.

Quote :

"Nearly $500 billion – about half of the money currently spent on overhead and bureaucracy – could be saved with simplified single-payer administration, enough to cover all the 30 million uninsured."

How much of a disruption in the labor force would be created if we switched to single payer, gutting the CUBA insurance giants and replacing their staff with a multitude of new GSA employees? Is it feasible to eliminate 2 million people from the workforce between insurance giants, hospital and doctor's office administrative staff, lobbyists, and subconsultants across the country and not send shockwaves into other industries? After all, that's what we're talking about when we say we're going to remove a half trillion dollars a year in administrative waste from the healthcare industry. I'm sure we'd see some stock market bubbles implode and develop overnight if single payer legislation looked like a reality.

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 5:42 PM. Reason : ^x5]

7/19/2017 5:42:29 PM

^^^

Quote :

"Do I personally believe the positives outweigh the negatives? Sure, but I'm just one dude."

^^I read what you posted, and like I said, it had dick all to do with my post. Just because a slim majority of Americans support some abstract concept of "federally funded health care" doesn't mean they are for a wholesale upheaval a system that a strong majority are currently satisfied with. This is the problem with you people, you ignore reality because you're either too lazy or too stupid to understand complex issues. The problems with the US healthcare system are myriad and there is no magic silver bullet, not even single payer.

Look, you can call me a troll or a waste of time, or whatever you want. Until the popular vote for President dictates the ideological/party makeup of Congress then the Democratic approach of incrementalism is the only thing that is politically feasible. Everything else is just arguing for arguments sake.

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 5:52 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2017 5:52:04 PM

Most of the world has figured out that healthcare is better and cheaper if you avoid giving a chunk of money to insurance companies.

The money that is now going to insurance company profits would end up going back into the economy. Many of the people working in insurance would find that their jobs lost would simply shift to other areas.

The inevitable event of millions temporarily losing their job while the economy becomes more sophisticated would go more smoothly anyway if there was an appropriate social safety net.

7/19/2017 5:52:23 PM

We can't stop Americans from dying from preventable diseases because it would disrupt the markets.

Got it.

7/19/2017 5:55:21 PM

Quote :

"Most of the world has figured out that healthcare is better and cheaper if you avoid giving a chunk of money to insurance companies."

it's not even debatable. we spend 30-50% more than countries with single payer and have a lower life expectancy.

7/19/2017 5:57:25 PM

Shrike: Hey buddy, I know you got black lung from working in a coal mine, but since you have respiratory issues and can no longer exchange your labor for minimum wage, you no longer have a job and no longer have health insurance for you or your family. We're not going to help you because stock prices. Oh well, it's your fault for not knowing how to code you fucking racist!

7/19/2017 6:10:41 PM

Quote :

"Is it feasible to eliminate 2 million people from the workforce between insurance giants, hospital and doctor's office administrative staff, lobbyists, and subconsultants across the country and not send shockwaves into other industries?"

Unless I'm mistaken, single payer wouldn't necessarily have to dramatically affect hospitals and doctors offices; it could be restricted to mostly affect the insurance industry.

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 6:11 PM. Reason : ]

7/19/2017 6:11:08 PM

lol, shrike yet again being a perfect example of why democrats are doomed

7/19/2017 6:18:10 PM

^^^Hey, at least when that racist mother fucker dies, it'll be one less vote for the people responsible for killing him

^Hey, dtownral with another show of his obsession with me

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 6:18 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2017 6:18:18 PM

"Kill the poors"

Republican/Democrat unity ticket, 2020


Congrats

7/19/2017 6:21:57 PM

Quote :

"Hey, at least when that racist mother fucker dies, it'll be one less vote for the people responsible for killing him"

you're responsible for killing him

7/19/2017 6:22:19 PM

I'd do it with my own goddamn hands if I could, unfortunately they are too weak and soft from coding all day. Oh and my nice plush leather wrapped steering wheel. And lotion.

[Edited on July 19, 2017 at 6:25 PM. Reason : this is fun]

7/19/2017 6:23:47 PM

^ The anger and despair they feel makes them susceptible to nationalist, fascists, and fear mongers.

And while you're sitting at your desk with moist hands, thousands of marginalized minorities will be victimized if they are ever called to violence.

Glad your having fun

7/19/2017 6:42:19 PM

capitalism is killing minorities at a much higher rate than whites, though.

7/19/2017 6:44:35 PM

^^Look man, you made some retarded analogy saying I was for the death coal miners despite being the most ardent champion on this forum of a law that included this,

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2013/09/25/2013-22874/regulations-implementing-the-byrd-amendments-to-the-black-lung-benefits-act-determining-coal-miners

So yeah, in the face of that level of ignorance, I'm gonna have some fun. For the record: I do not believe in killing the poor (but we should at least run the numbers to see if it would help).

7/19/2017 6:56:59 PM

Quote :

"Unless I'm mistaken, single payer wouldn't necessarily have to dramatically affect hospitals and doctors offices; it could be restricted to mostly affect the insurance industry. "

sending the bill to one person shouldn't take a slew of staff to achieve. The four people working the front desk at my local doctor's office could likely be replaced by one person. If the claims of $500 billion/yr in savings in administrative costs are true, then using an assumed blended employee cost of $200,000/yr equates to 2.5 million jobs eliminated.

Quote :

"Most of the world has figured out that healthcare is better and cheaper if you avoid giving a chunk of money to insurance companies. "

The Swiss think compulsory insurance is the best idea, and most experts think they have one of the best models of healthcare in the world.

7/19/2017 7:01:14 PM

Quote :

"And while you're sitting at your desk with moist hands, thousands of marginalized minorities will be victimized if they are ever called to violence. "

if it makes you feel any better, Shrike will likely be victimized if that kind of uprising were ever to occur. Anyone that toes the Democrat party line as hard as he does couldn't possibly own a gun, and those mutinous working class hordes will take one look at those soft, well moistened hands of his and see him as an enemy.

7/19/2017 7:10:17 PM

Quote :

"Look man, you made some retarded analogy saying I was for the death coal miners despite being the most ardent champion on this forum of a law that included this"

Or, you could just, you know, champion universal healthcare instead so that they can get the treatment they need. Especially considering you might need it to for your future carpel-tunnel and psoriasis when you run out of hand moisturizer.

De-couple health care from employment and you'll help more people than you will from legislating your way out of every single medical condition.

7/19/2017 7:53:57 PM

Someone used the "r" word in this thread. That's offensive to some.

7/19/2017 10:02:04 PM

all the incoherent babbling from McCain during the Comey hearing makes more sense now.

7/20/2017 12:16:10 AM

makes fun of a man wishing him well to get better "because we need his vote" when he was in cancer surgery....

7/20/2017 12:25:14 AM

that should be a +1 credibility, considering this is McCain we're talking about.

could just be an elaborate ploy to avoid testifying about paying for the pissgate dossier or running guns to ISIS. [/tinfoil]

[Edited on July 20, 2017 at 12:43 AM. Reason : .]

7/20/2017 12:33:45 AM

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cbo-estimates-32-million-uninsured-decade-obamacare-repeal/story?id=48732539

7/20/2017 12:40:32 AM

CIA will stop "covertly" arming "Rebels" in Syria.

Pentagon still arming other rebels however.

Still a net positive.

7/20/2017 12:47:01 AM

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/07/19/us/politics/trump-interview-transcript.html?referer=https://t.co/AYM3Snr4h3?amp=1

This entire thing is 100% certifiably insane but one thing stuck out:

Quote :

"TRUMP: But what it does, Maggie, it means it gets tougher and tougher. As they get something, it gets tougher. Because politically, you can’t give it away. So pre-existing conditions are a tough deal. Because you are basically saying from the moment the insurance, you’re 21 years old, you start working and you’re paying $12 a year for insurance, and by the time you’re 70, you get a nice plan. Here’s something where you walk up and say, “I want my insurance.” It’s a very tough deal, but it is something that we’re doing a good job of."

Does..... he not know the difference between healthcare and life insurance?

7/20/2017 7:27:26 AM

he's proven in the past that he doesn't

unless I'm having some weird deja vu moment, that exact question has been asked ITT

7/20/2017 9:08:32 AM

I can't even figure out what thought he's trying to express in that quote. It's like seven or eight different ones combined.

7/20/2017 11:57:21 AM

He's an idiot or his mind is really failing but I think he is commenting on the near impossibility of giving a social safety net and then legislating that away. I suspect he was intimating that he wanted to take away forcing insurers to cover pre-existing conditions.

But then he confused term life insurance with health insurance again so who knows.

7/20/2017 12:11:02 PM

$12 a year for insurance?

Trump is turning his interviews into Insurance Panda spam.

7/20/2017 5:37:51 PM

After reading that quote, it is sublimely shocking that several tens of millions of people in the US, and likely the same number outside the US, love that guy, and that they elected him.

And that they still love him.

If this was Nigeria, sure. El Salvador, sure. Bangladesh, sure.

But the greatest most powerful nation ever where everybody is educated?

7/20/2017 6:43:13 PM

Trump's passive and indirect FU to his supporters, but sadly, they are so blindly in love with him that not only do they not know this, they won't even care if you point it out to them and will ad nauseum repeat "He is doing a great job" and drown you out.

https://mic.com/articles/182580/6-months-later-donald-trump-hasnt-passed-any-of-the-10-major-bills-he-promised

6 months later, Donald Trump hasn’t passed any of the 10 major bills he promised

Quote :

"Six months after President Donald Trump took office, he has not passed any of the 10 bills he promised he’d introduce and pass within his first 100 days in office — leaving him with zero major legislative victories as Congress gears up to leave town for the month of August. Since the end of his first 100 days on April 28, little progress has been made on Trump’s legislative agenda."

https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/888019826651914240/photo/1

7/20/2017 11:41:30 PM

Say it isn't so Spicey

7/21/2017 11:59:24 AM

Hopefully, guy will spill the beans on how poorly run the whitehouse is. He doesn't owe Trump shit from where I'm standing.

7/21/2017 12:51:08 PM

Kellyanne needs to cash out NOW. She was born for BravoTV and it's her perfect window to capture the Real Housewives demo before people lose interest.

7/21/2017 2:39:17 PM

^hahaha

7/21/2017 2:55:53 PM

Another good day for Goldman Sachs.

7/21/2017 4:35:34 PM

Of course, a bumbling idiot who can't speak English properly would hire someone similar so as to not feel so stupid

https://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow/videos/10155614713346800
https://www.facebook.com/cnn/videos/10157083517381509

7/21/2017 4:48:55 PM

https://www.facebook.com/senatorsanders/posts/10156159051437908

Quote :

"“From the moment the insurance, you’re 21 years old, you start working and you’re paying $12 a year for insurance, and by the time you’re 70, you get a nice plan,” Trump told the New York Times in an interview this week. I’m not sure which world he’s living in, but in this one, health insurance is a lot more than $12. In fact, the Republican health care bill in the Senate right now would take premiums that already cost hundreds of dollars and multiply them. Under their bill, someone making $26,500 a year and paying $800 for premiums today would have to pay $13,000 for a premium in 2026. $13,000! Mr. President, you need to understand the reality that people face with the enormous costs of health insurance we have today. What this country needs is to guarantee health care to all, not to make health insurance even more unaffordable than it already is for millions of Americans."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/20/16002764/trump-health-costs
Trump has no idea how much health insurance costs

7/21/2017 8:43:05 PM

Fucking hypocrites and liars

The new White House communications director hasn't always praised Donald Trump.
https://www.facebook.com/MicMedia/videos/1589733061049478/

The comments under the video are great

Quote :

"2015: "Bring it, Donald!" 2017: "I'm sorry, Boss!" Boy, did this guy get his balls cut off or what?"

Quote :

"New Liar appointed to replace Old Liar who will continue to shamelessly Lie on behalf of Pathological Liar"

7/21/2017 8:57:17 PM

I’m not bothered by trump hiring former critics– literally everyone was a former trump critic including Conway and pence. Trump thinks the problem with his admin is other people, so he keeps attacking the ppl around him.

The problem with his admin is himself, any new person is going to realize what a loon trump is and trump will then stab them in the back like he did Sessions and Comey.

I can’t see how his admin doesn’t continue to crumble– the question is what will congress do?

I read a good article today that a constitutional crisis happens when some entity doesn’t act within the duties expected of them on the constitution. We are close to having a broken gov with 2 functioning branches.

If trump continues to ignore expert advisors, fire anyone who questions him, bypasses ethics oversight, what happens?

[Edited on July 21, 2017 at 9:20 PM. Reason : ]

7/21/2017 9:19:42 PM

^here's your answer
https://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=648933

7/21/2017 11:05:45 PM

^^ I was lambasting Scaramucci for going from an independent thinker to a brown noser.

7/22/2017 4:38:37 AM

All of his talk of pardons seems like a bad strategy, even for him.

I guess if everything is #fakenews, he's just trying to play prevent defense right now and pander to the devoted.

7/22/2017 1:17:31 PM

Quote :

"If this was Nigeria, sure. El Salvador, sure. Bangladesh, sure. But the greatest most powerful nation ever where everybody is educated? "

This is just a terrible statement which explains why you don't understand how people support this guy. An educated population that wanted to support everyone wouldn't even support Obamacare.

"Greatest" is just your opinion, "most powerful" is possibly true but its hard to compare with nations of other eras. Our education is not that good and we certainly don't educate people on health insurance. As someone who has spent their life in education, I know first hand that our schools don't teach people to understand that quote and would be surprised if more than 25% of the country knows how health insurance works.

Sure, it doesn't have to be part of the curriculum for people to learn how to think about it but our schools are mostly driven by standardized tests.

7/22/2017 8:38:49 PM

^

7/23/2017 12:47:25 AM