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EuroTitToss
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holy fucking shit

$7.9

Is there something driving this or is just apathy?

8/6/2011 2:58:18 PM

BobbyDigital
HomieDOESplayDat
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what's driving this is that people are realizing that this will never work.

8/6/2011 3:00:49 PM

EuroTitToss
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cool story bro

8/6/2011 3:07:42 PM

GeniuSxBoY
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It's the end of the bitcoin world as we know it
It's the end of the bitcoin world as we know it

8/6/2011 8:35:58 PM

Shaggy
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lol. what happened is some guy stole 250k buttcoins and is now selling them all off.

8/6/2011 10:01:05 PM

lewisje
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♥HumbleIndieBundle

BTW I was heartened when I heard that after the EFF got scared of the legal implications of Bitcoin, the organization decided to give them all away to the Faucet rather than buying shit or selling them off through a quasi-legal exchange...

8/7/2011 10:15:35 AM

Arab13
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Quote :
"what's driving this is that people are realizing that this will never work."

8/8/2011 1:21:33 AM

GeniuSxBoY
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Better look again. You'll shit yourself.

8/9/2011 1:11:28 PM

EuroTitToss
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^Not really. The price could be $10,000/BTC and these jokers would still be calling its demise.

8/9/2011 2:27:26 PM

lewisje
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^hi you sound like a ron paul supporter

i mean who else would be that blind to the realities of public opinion

8/10/2011 8:11:41 AM

EuroTitToss
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Is Ron Paul cryptographically secure?

IS HE?

No, seriously. People in this thread have constantly said bitcoin is going to fail while providing no explanation for why that would happen.

Geniussexboy thinks the price shifting from $8 to $10 is going to change their minds (even though the price has been 3 times higher). How does disagreeing with that sentiment make me like a ron paul supporter?

8/10/2011 9:07:59 AM

BobbyDigital
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Bitcoin has no significant adoption.

You can't use it anywhere except for a handful of venues online, and even then, typically to buy illegal goods.

the dollar/bitcoin conversion is not a marker of success or failure.

Adoption is a much better metric for success or failure.

The reality is that there aren't that many of these guys out there, who are the typical bitcoin adopter:



Here's a good primer on what it takes to actually supplant an existing currency.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/10/04/130329523/how-fake-money-saved-brazil

[Edited on August 10, 2011 at 9:32 AM. Reason : .]

8/10/2011 9:25:14 AM

lewisje
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k let me break it down for you (like you were a lolbertarian needing to be schooled on why libertopia is a bad idea and nearly impossible to achieve)...


To get from here (fiat currency as legal tender) to there (one Buttcoin to rule them all), we need a reliable method to exchange what works now for what will supposedly work better then.

Until Bitcoin becomes the dominant form of money, anyone so much as trying it out will very likely still get paid in fiat currency and will need to use this fiat currency to make everyday purchases and pay off debt.
Much of it isn't physically transferred but it is still backed by the trust that people have in their governments, laws and policies regarding banking security (including e-banking), and substantial network effects.

In order to get in on some hot hot Bitcoin action, people may start accepting Bitcoin for their products or services or as charitable donations (possibly mining on the side), and they may occasionally use Bitcoin to buy products or services, but until this thing really snowballs, it will be nearly impossible to make a closed loop of Bitcoin in their daily financial lives.

To manage the transition between Bitcoin and fiat currency, we use exchanges; in fact this is how the vast majority of Bitcoin users get that bit¢ash to begin with, because mining is too hard and the network of Bitcoin-using customers and employers is still small.

Although Bitcoin itself is cryptographically secure, so that Bitcoins cannot feasibly be duplicated, used multiple times, or created out of "thin air" other than via the carefully regulated mining process, and so that transactions cannot be reversed, these intermediaries generally are not.
Indeed, Mt. Gox and the other major exchanges have had numerous Web application vulnerabilities that led to malicious users altering the site's own record of transactions (which were not as cryptographically secure as the Bitcoin transactions created from them).

It is as if banks had faulty and easily jimmied locks within their vaults: Even if it were impossible to duplicate currency or reverse transactions, people would be leery of using these institutions to switch between an electronic record and cold, hard cash (this problem would exist even if banks merely held deposits and did not lend or pay interest).

To make it worse, there are numerous strains of malware that steal Bitcoin wallets: If a banking trojan leads to unauthorized transfers, you may be able to use the policies of your bank and the laws of the respective countries to recover at least some of the money, but if a bot steals your Bitcoin wallet then TOUGH SHIT!
You can imagine how the growth of that network of Bitcoin users could be stymied by these twin threats to confidence in the system...unless you have the mentality of a Paultard


As for why the actual adoption of Bitcoin as a global currency is a bad idea, it's like the gold standard on steroids; when governments cannot control interest rates or inflation, but the global financial system is still interconnected, bad stuff can result (cf. the Great Depression or the European sovereign-debt crisis, only much worse).

[Edited on August 10, 2011 at 9:37 AM. Reason : ^basically if US Govt switched to Bitcoin the network-effect problem would be solved overnight

8/10/2011 9:34:00 AM

EuroTitToss
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Oh shit. I said bitcoin would supplant another currency to become the dominant currency used around the globe? Sorry guys. Must been have been posting while pissed again.

Quote :
"In order to get in on some hot hot Bitcoin action, people may start accepting Bitcoin for their products or services or as charitable donations (possibly mining on the side), and they may occasionally use Bitcoin to buy products or services, but until this thing really snowballs, it will be nearly impossible to make a closed loop of Bitcoin in their daily financial lives."


I'm actually assuming it's going to live here for a while/indefinitely.

When I say it's not going to fail, I mean I don't think it's going to totally collapse....

The part I don't get is why ya'll are like LOOK, IT DOESN'T HAVE MASS ADOPTION YET. It's been around as an obscure technical proof of concept for 2 years. It's had somewhat mainstream attention for 2 months. The dollar has been around for 200 years. What the fuck do you expect to happen in 2 months exactly?

Quote :
"the dollar/bitcoin conversion is not a marker of success or failure."


I know! That's what we're arguing about to being with. I just said a minor price shift wasn't going to change people's minds.

[Edited on August 10, 2011 at 10:19 AM. Reason : fuck]

8/10/2011 10:13:05 AM

lewisje
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this
Quote :
"The price could be $10,000/BTC and these jokers would still be calling its demise."
sounds like the ranting of a true Bitcoin Believer™, unaware of the very real issues leading many a commentator to conclude that Bitcoin will never achieve critical mass

8/10/2011 10:36:31 AM

EuroTitToss
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Yes, I have drunk the koolaid because I don't think the price is going to $0.

8/10/2011 1:31:19 PM

BobbyDigital
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Ok, so if we agree that this will never be more than what it is now-- a pseudo-currency that exists on the fringes of commerce, then there's no argument.

It seems like you're taking this a bit personally, and I'm only looking at this on its own merits. I'm not trying to call your baby ugly or anything here.

8/10/2011 1:54:10 PM

EuroTitToss
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If I was this guy, I would be genuinely upset:

http://falkvinge.net/2011/05/29/why-im-putting-all-my-savings-into-bitcoin/

8/10/2011 2:26:44 PM

Noen
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Quote :
"Ok, so if we agree that this will never be more than what it is now-- a pseudo-currency that exists on the fringes of commerce, then there's no argument."


All it's going to take is one financial institution or commercial startup to create a secure and reliable exchange + distribution network, and bitcoin will become a legitimate currency.

With as many virtual currencies as there are today (Microsoft Points, WoW Gold, Facebook credits, et al), there WILL eventually be an industry consolidation to a standardized and secure digital currency.

And I absolutely think BitCoin has the best chance of becoming that standard. But not until a major enterprise gets on board to drive adoption and security. People trust open source communities for a lot of things, but their money isn't one of them.

8/10/2011 5:56:25 PM

BobbyDigital
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There's no real incentive for a bank to drive adoption for a new, non-fiat currency. Far too much risk exposure, especially when most users of said currency are using said currency for legally questionable activity.

And as for being non-fiat, it's not simply that it's not government backed... it's not backed by _anything_ at all.

Even as it is, the only way to value bitcoins is by converting it to dollar(or other fiat currency) value.

8/10/2011 10:44:16 PM

jaZon
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You dildos still holding on to the idea this shit will work?

8/10/2011 10:50:32 PM

Noen
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^^ I dont think it will be a bank. I just mentioned several existing, non-back, incredibly successful virtual currencies that could all (potentially) benefit from moving to an open exchange model like BitCoin.

Not saying it will ever happen, but if it did, that would be a path to long term commercial success.

8/11/2011 12:47:37 AM

Chance
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Can you convert those successful virtual currencies you mentioned to real American dollars? Whats the exchange?

8/11/2011 7:22:53 AM

smoothcrim
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Quote :
"it's not backed by _anything_ at all"

that's not exactly true. bitcoin is an expression of compute time, which is an expression of your country's economy both in importing/building compute, efficiency of power infrastructure, available cooling, etc. where i think the currency fails is that it is worthless without a base currency to buy and facilitate the equipment needed to generate it.

8/11/2011 8:53:07 AM

Noen
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Quote :
"Can you convert those successful virtual currencies you mentioned to real American dollars? Whats the exchange?"


They are all, for the most part, one way exchanges. Getting back into real American dollars is done through proxied private agreements (aka I'll transfer you 2000 microsoft points if you give me 20 dollars).

8/11/2011 3:53:43 PM

GeniuSxBoY
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bitcoin conference tomorrow, saturday, and sunday in new york city.

8/19/2011 12:33:17 AM

CaelNCSU
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I expect the price to hit $15 again by Sunday.

8/19/2011 12:45:04 AM

GeniuSxBoY
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I've been waiting for funds since sunday, they're expected to be here tomorrow. I hope it doesn't rise too much before it takes off.

8/19/2011 12:46:50 AM

GeniuSxBoY
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8/19/2011 11:13:26 AM

EuroTitToss
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do you post that every time you buy in?

8/20/2011 9:23:14 AM

GeniuSxBoY
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I post that everytime I buy in and the price goes higher than $1 away from my buy in price

[Edited on August 21, 2011 at 6:02 PM. Reason : .]

8/21/2011 6:02:29 PM

EuroTitToss
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$6.6

it's at 20% of it's peak value

9/6/2011 6:56:56 AM

catalyst
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i blames this stupid fucking currency for the reason I can't find AMD video cards

9/6/2011 9:20:02 AM

Arab13
Art Vandelay
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Won't exist in 5 years, tops. The feds can squash it anytime they want as per US Constitution.

You guys can keep 'defending' the funny money all you want, but I don't think it's going to amount to much of anything to the vast majority of consumers.

9/6/2011 11:20:16 AM

wwwebsurfer
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500Ghash worth of people have signed off deepbit. Poised for an upswing

9/6/2011 7:24:20 PM

Arab13
Art Vandelay
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Won't affect anything, won't change anything, doesn't matter.

Fun little experiment until people started paying actual money for it. Then it got stupid / ridiculous very quickly.

9/7/2011 9:10:07 AM

dakota_man
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Quote :
"The feds can squash it anytime they want as per US Constitution."


How?

9/7/2011 11:31:04 AM

Arab13
Art Vandelay
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Art. I, section 8 "Section 8 - Powers of Congress", clause 5 - "To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;"

Art. I, section 10 "Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States", clause 1 - "No State shall . . . coin Money"

This gives them the power if they so choose to act.

If a State cannot coin money, then a private entity in the jurisdiction of the US cannot as well.

It also means that someone can pay someone in bitcoin and has zero recourse if the seller renges.

9/7/2011 2:39:22 PM

EuroTitToss
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Quote :
"If a State cannot coin money, then a private entity in the jurisdiction of the US cannot as well."


That's a pretty dumb assertion.

Quote :
"This gives them the power if they so choose to act."


Even if the previous were true, that would only give them the legal power to act, but how would they practically squash it?

9/7/2011 2:50:04 PM

GeniuSxBoY
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Quote :
"
Art. I, section 10 "Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States", clause 1 - "No State shall . . . coin Money"

This gives them the power if they so choose to act.
"



Before this article was born, each state had its own currency. This article just ensures that all the states stay "United" in currency. United States.

9/7/2011 3:05:05 PM

dakota_man
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Quote :
"If a State cannot coin money, then a private entity in the jurisdiction of the US cannot as well."


Quote :
"That's a pretty dumb assertion."

9/7/2011 6:17:19 PM

aaronburro
Sup, B
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actually, this fucktard doesn't understand the law. no where does it say the people can't coin money. It says states can't. you walk a narrow fucking line when you do it, but the people most certainly can coin money. they just can't say it's US legal tender

9/7/2011 7:14:15 PM

Arab13
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I'm glad to see that selective reading is still alive and well on TWW.

Quote :
"That's a pretty dumb assertion."


Not when read in context with the rest of the post which pretty much is a response to:

Quote :
""The feds can squash it anytime they want as per US Constitution."


How?"


Then pointing out the relevant bits that allow the feds to squash it when they like to is directly answering the question, 'how do the feds get the power to squash'.



Quote :
"they just can't say it's US legal tender"


This is it exactly. Result:

Quote :
"It also means that someone can pay someone in bitcoin and has zero recourse if the seller renges."


Not legal tender = not recognized as 'money' in any legal situation, which in order for this to actually 'take off' will occur as people and entities tend to get into squabbles when there is value involved.

Quote :
"Even if the previous were true, that would only give them the legal power to act, but how would they practically squash it?"


I never said I was a cop or even propose a method that they could enforce this. Speculation: Short of tracking online transactions, obtaining the buyer's and seller's ID's and sending a nice man in a uniform to their door to offer them a ride.

Quote :
"this fucktard doesn't understand the law."


burro being burro Name calling. Wow. Ok. If it's not legal tender then it's little more than primitive bartering. Bartering a intangible like bitcoin is asinine when it has zero enforceable value.

There a multitude of instances in which the feds could get interested in getting rid of bitcoin. Most of this authority stems directly from the commerce clauses.

9/7/2011 10:23:27 PM

Arab13
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This tidbit is relevant to the fact that individuals, as a matter of law, cannot coin money.

Quote :
"Bernard von NotHaus, 67, was convicted last month in federal court in Statesville on conspiracy and counterfeiting charges for making and selling the currency, which he promoted as inflation-proof competition for the U.S. dollar."

UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff,v.3039.375 POUNDS OF COPPER COINS, et al., Defendants,andZeke Layman, Claimant.

United States v. 3039.375 Pounds of Copper Coins, CIV 1:08CV230, 2009 WL 2156615 (W.D.N.C. July 15, 2009)

9/8/2011 9:31:17 AM

dakota_man
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

Quote :
"On March 18, 2011, von NotHaus was found guilty on various counts, including the making of counterfeit coins."


This is one of the statutes they thought he violated, that I believe relates to the case you cited:

Quote :
"Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both."


Note: bitcoins aren't metal.

Later in the article, though, it does say he was convicted of various counts, including the above statute, although this is why:

Quote :
"According to the Associated Press, "Federal prosecutors successfully argued that von NotHaus was, in fact, trying to pass off the silver coins as U.S. currency. Coming in denominations of 5, 10, 20, and 50, the Liberty Dollars also featured a dollar sign, the word "dollar" and the motto "Trust in God," similar to the "In God We Trust" that appears on U.S. coins""


Bitcoins are completely different, and I don't see anything that would give the federal government the authority to go after them in any way.

9/8/2011 10:16:39 AM

Arab13
Art Vandelay
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Have fun then.

9/8/2011 1:33:23 PM

Noen
All American
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agree with DakotaMan. Disagree with Arab13.

Bitcoin is absolutely no different than any other digital currency, of which there are TONS. If the feds aren't going after Microsoft Points or Facebook Credits, they aren't going after bitcoins.

9/8/2011 1:49:35 PM

Arab13
Art Vandelay
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Fundamental difference between saying they can do something and then showing the authority for it, and saying they will ever actually do anything about it.

9/8/2011 7:22:03 PM

aaronburro
Sup, B
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Quote :
"This tidbit is relevant to the fact that individuals, as a matter of law, cannot coin money. "

not so much. what he got nailed for wasn't coining money. he got nailed for saying what he had made was the same as US currency. I forget the exact verbage used, but if he had said "i'll give you one of these which is worth 5 bux", he'd have been OK. but he didn't do that. you are honestly making yourself look stupid here.

then, let's look at your quote:
Quote :
"Bernard von NotHaus, 67, was convicted last month in federal court in Statesville on conspiracy and counterfeiting charges"

there's the rub. he wasn't hit up on charges of making a currency. he was hit up for counterfeiting, which was a tough sell, but when he said it was the same thing as US money, that's where they got him.

9/8/2011 7:33:49 PM

EuroTitToss
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$5

9/9/2011 9:39:54 AM

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