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Pupils DiL8t
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This article focuses on what would result if Donald Trump were to win the 2024 presidential election:

https://www.axios.com/2022/07/22/trump-2025-radical-plan-second-term

7/22/2022 11:25:50 AM

marko
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Trump is irrelevant now.

They have the Supreme Court. They’ll rally round DeSantis and continue to push the Christo-fascist agenda as the craziest people ever get voted into office during the midterms and continue to break stuff.

7/23/2022 3:27:30 PM

The Coz
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He's hardly irrelevant. He will attack DeSantis in a heartbeat. There is no loyalty what's best for anyone except one person.

7/23/2022 3:58:24 PM

thegoodlife3
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^^ yep

Trump’s support is showing signs of eroding, but it means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things

they have more than enough elected officials in place and running who will be excited to throw out votes who aren’t cast for whoever the Republican running ends up being

7/23/2022 6:11:45 PM

The Coz
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I see plenty of shitty people waiting in the wings, but it seems like there's something unique about the Trump spell on the stupidest of the stupid.

7/23/2022 7:36:03 PM

theDuke866
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Man, could we get, like, Jon Huntsman vs Joe Manchin in 2024? No? Please?

This could turn out to be more fucked up than Trump vs Hillary.

7/24/2022 2:56:37 AM

rwoody
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7/24/2022 11:18:07 AM

The Coz
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Joe Manchin? Are you serious?

7/24/2022 11:20:59 AM

theDuke866
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I meant to say if they run someone besides Biden. Someone batshit like many on the left clamor for after not getting a whole lot even while holding the WH and both houses of Congress.

I’d love to see a couple of centrists run. And actually I like Manchin a lot. I prioritize environmental issues much more than he does, but otherwise he’s pretty good.

Biden will probably be OK with me if he runs. I mean, he sucks, and I’m not aligned with him politically, but he sucks within normal bounds. I’d certainly vote for him again if Trump ran against him. DeSantis? I don’t know. I’m not well aligned with him either…just in different ways. At least he’d be competent as an executive, though. Support for the Big Lie or Jan 6 stuff would be a hard stop, though.

[Edited on July 24, 2022 at 12:11 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2022 12:11:16 PM

The Coz
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Well, that's good to hear.

I think an amoeba prioritizes environmental issues much more than Joe Manchin does.

7/24/2022 12:29:55 PM

bbehe
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DeSantis is creating his own brownshirts for 'election security', he'd be worse than Trump

7/24/2022 1:04:03 PM

dmspack
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Quote :
" At least he’d be competent as an executive, though."


(Re: DeSantis)

“Competent” just in the sense that he wouldn’t be as outwardly embarrassing/ridiculous/idiotic as Trump?

Seems like he’s actively avoided taking much of a stance on the 2020 election. Which…idk, if you can’t admit who rightfully won or lost then that should be totally disqualifying imo.

7/24/2022 2:13:14 PM

qntmfred
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7/24/2022 4:19:48 PM

bbehe
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Qntm with the hint that Yang will challenge Biden

7/24/2022 4:38:29 PM

qntmfred
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nope, but I think those of us who are not super enthused with what's been coming out of both of the two major parties in recent years might find some compelling alternatives in the near future.

7/24/2022 6:24:14 PM

bbehe
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I mean, that realistically won't happen with first past the post voting, at least not for President. The first party to splinter is dead.

7/24/2022 7:30:54 PM

theDuke866
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^^ sure, but not any who will actually win.

I mean, I am all for voting for them when it's giant douche vs turd sandwich otherwise...but not when it's giant douche vs existential threat.

Quote :
""Competent” just in the sense that he wouldn’t be as outwardly embarrassing/ridiculous/idiotic as Trump?

Seems like he’s actively avoided taking much of a stance on the 2020 election. Which…idk, if you can’t admit who rightfully won or lost then that should be totally disqualifying imo.
"


Come on, DeSantis is a smart dude. We may not agree with him on policy (you even less than me), but he's a smart dude...and he has been competent in running a pretty large state.

I'm not talking alignment on policy. I'm saying that for all of the policy issues I have with Trump, for as much as I think he's an asshole, for however much I think he's a snake unfit to serve as commander in chief of the military, and for as much as I think he's a fucking criminal with no integrity or ethics even by political standards, my #1 beef with him is that he's an incompetent fucking idiot who won't listen to even his own people who know what they're doing, and who actively undermines (generally inadvertently) any sort of coherence in his own government. In short, totally aside from the other issues, my biggest issue with him is that he's actively, willfully the most abysmal imaginable CEO of America.

Trump's policy is really bad, and he's an asshole for the ages, but that's not what makes him uniquely terrible. These people who think he's hated for mean tweets, or say that he would have been great if he'd just stayed off of Twitter are totally missing every important point. His assholery and Twitter feed are the absolute least of the problems with him.

...and yeah, in the final days, vaulted right up there with utter incompetence as an executive is the Big Lie/tearing down the rule of law/democratic process/election confidence & integrity. For that reason, if DeSantis sides with him on Jan 6th/election overthrow stuff, that is a hard stop.

Not taking a stand is disgusting and being a complete coward, but I won't go so far as to say that would be a hard stop. That's what politicians do. If it's DeSantis vs, say, Liz Warren, I'd have to think hard about choking back the vomit and voting DeSantis.

...but if he does take a side on that and it's the wrong one, that's a hard stop.

_______________________

Fuck Trump. If he got raped to death in prison, the only shame would be that he couldn't be prison raped anymore.


[Edited on July 24, 2022 at 11:09 PM. Reason : I may be center right, but I think I hate that motherfucker more than most of you on the left.]

[Edited on July 24, 2022 at 11:10 PM. Reason : ]

7/24/2022 11:04:03 PM

dmspack
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^ thanks for the answer. I wasn’t trying to be aggressive or call you out or anything. I was just seeking clarification on how you defined competence in the White House.

7/25/2022 6:07:19 AM

bbehe
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Duke, I'm honestly confused how you believe what DeSantis is doing regarding the J6/Big Lie isn't just as bad. Dude is simply playing to the political calculus of which opinion would help him the most.

This isn't the day after the election or January 7th, there's absolutely no reason he should have a position by now.

7/25/2022 7:12:05 AM

bbehe
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Shouldn't have*

7/25/2022 8:03:23 AM

Pupils DiL8t
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Here's part 2 of the article from the top of the page:

https://www.axios.com/2022/07/23/donald-trump-news-schedule-f-executive-order

With the amount of effort that organizations are putting into creating America First staffing databases, I could also see Ron DeSantis implementing something like Schedule F if he were to win the 2024 election.

7/25/2022 12:22:21 PM

bdmazur
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Quote :
"DeSantis is a smart dude. We may not agree with him on policy (you even less than me), but he's a smart dude...and he has been competent in running a pretty large state.
"


This is what worries me. Even if being Trump-light makes his platform a smidge more tolerant, being competent makes him more of a risk to really hurt people with his policies. Heck I'd take Ted Cruz over DeSantis at this point (I almost threw up saying that)


Quote :
"I mean, that realistically won't happen with first past the post voting, at least not for President. The first party to splinter is dead."


We need ranked choice voting so badly even just in party primaries, stop letting the extremes win with less than a majority of supporters. If we can get it in every statewide election everything would be at least a little bit better. If a strong faction within each party made a pact to split off the same election year it might force the entire system to change, but they won't because they all fear not getting reelected.

7/25/2022 6:40:10 PM

bdmazur
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4 years ago I was all-in on a Warren/Booker presidency. I'd still prefer that but now I'd welcome something like Yang/Buttigieg just to get on the right track to progress.

7/25/2022 6:42:10 PM

bbehe
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Quote :
"if DeSantis sides with him on Jan 6th/election overthrow stuff, that is a hard stop.

Not taking a stand is disgusting and being a complete coward, but I won't go so far as to say that would be a hard stop."


You know, the more I think about, not taking a stand is actually worse.

7/25/2022 7:31:34 PM

dmspack
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Not picking a side on something like 1/6 or The Big Lie is, in my book, tacit approval of those actions/lies. Now, it’s easy for me to say that because I am not going to vote for DeSantis regardless of his opinion on those events.

7/25/2022 7:39:34 PM

theDuke866
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Quote :
"This is what worries me. Even if being Trump-light makes his platform a smidge more tolerant, being competent makes him more of a risk to really hurt people with his policies. "


Yep.

My hope is that there's a substantial amount of his really most loathsome policies not being something he'd really try hard to implement once he made it to the Presidency--that they're more just things to rile up his base, either as largely empty talk, or as things he might do in FL to get to the national stage, but that he wouldn't prioritize from the Oval.

...but that's a dangerous thing to bet on. If he did try to govern as a genuine Trumpist, he'd be much more dangerous, because he's not utterly inept, stupid, and lazy.

Quote :
"I'd welcome something like Yang/Buttigieg just to get on the right track to progress.
"


I mean, their politics are not quite my thing, but I'm sure I'd rather have them than Trump.

Quote :
"Heck I'd take Ted Cruz over DeSantis at this point "


Why is that? Seems like he'd be roughly equivalent. A little better here, a little worse there, but about the same on average.

Quote :
"We need ranked choice voting so badly even just in party primaries, stop letting the extremes win with less than a majority of supporters. "


agreed. what's the counter-argument?

Quote :
"Not picking a side on something like 1/6 or The Big Lie is, in my book, tacit approval of those actions/lies."


I view it as more like when they get a COVID vaccination because they're not idiots, but then won't acknowledge it because of the politics.

That's still reprehensible, but not the same thing as campaigning against vaccinations.

7/26/2022 6:40:52 PM

bbehe
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Quote :
"I view it as more like when they get a COVID vaccination because they're not idiots, but then won't acknowledge it because of the politics.
"


and I view it as they'd be willing to support the Big Lie if it had been more successful. They're literally enabling an extremely dangerous base by not admitting the truth or using dog whistles to support the protestors.

7/26/2022 6:56:39 PM

MathFreak
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I'm here after about 20 years of absence reviewing if everyone's gone woke like on every other campus else, or if there are still sane people. The answer is not clear.

I will disappear soon so just offering a data point, not trying to debate. I've lived in this country for 23 years, and Trump has been by far the best President on policy. Nobody is even close. The only President who didn't start an illegal war (drone strikes notwithstanding), reduced regulations, correctly called out Europe and NATO's impotence, etc.

Unfortunately he's a divisive dickhead, and not being one is a job responsibility, too. However, being a dick is better than killing 100,000s of Iraqis. I hope that we can find someone with Trump's political instincts but with a human soul, too. I don't hold my breadth.

7/26/2022 8:48:18 PM

marko
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You straight up said “woke.”

lord

7/26/2022 9:19:23 PM

rwoody
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"illegal war" is a fun little term too

Also saying Trump is the best on policy then naming one vague "policy" (reduced what regulations), one statement (called out tough guy) and one half truth (my man assassinated a general and kept Afghanistan going strong).

Not that I live their foreign policy re armed conflicts, but what wars did Obama or Biden start? Biden needed a big one?

7/26/2022 11:09:37 PM

thegoodlife3
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Quote :
" My hope is that there's a substantial amount of his really most loathsome policies not being something he'd really try hard to implement once he made it to the Presidency--that they're more just things to rile up his base, either as largely empty talk, or as things he might do in FL to get to the national stage, but that he wouldn't prioritize from the Oval."


is this a copy/paste from 2015??

7/27/2022 12:12:35 AM

theDuke866
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convenient that you left out the very next sentence.

7/27/2022 12:36:46 AM

thegoodlife3
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yet you would still vote for him over Elizabeth Warren

the same exact thing was a “dangerous thing to bet on” in 2015-16 for Republicans, btw. how did that work out for them?

[Edited on July 27, 2022 at 12:47 AM. Reason : .]

7/27/2022 12:44:52 AM

dmspack
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Quote :
" I view it as more like when they get a COVID vaccination because they're not idiots, but then won't acknowledge it because of the politics.

That's still reprehensible, but not the same thing as campaigning against vaccinations."


It’s not the same as specifically campaigning against vaccines. But I think the vaccine example is pretty terrible too. I know all politicians sit on the fence, flip flop, pander, fake outrage, take vague stances, etc. I try not to be totally naive. But downplaying the effectiveness of a vaccine or being intentionally vague/misleading about the safety of a vaccine in the middle of a pandemic is wrong and dangerous and has cost people their lives. Is it as bad as declaring vaccines bad or declaring Covid to be fake? No it’s not as bad. But such stances, to me, are automatically disqualifying for a candidate. But again, that’s very easy for me to say since the politicians making those arguments already do not align with my political views. Maybe this is just a case of our political views differing so I’m simply failing to see your side here. But all those examples (not taking a side on vaccines, 1/6, The Big Lie) seem, to me, to be a bigger deal and more dangerous than the typical BS that comes out of a politician’s mouth.

7/27/2022 7:22:44 AM

theDuke866
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^^ I never said that. In fact, I've been almost uniformly negative on DeSantis here, other than that he's smart and competent, which I think is objectively clear. I said that I would have to think about what to do if it came down to, say DeSantis and Warren. That could be for one of them or the other, or a 3rd party, or abstain.

Quote :
"the same exact thing was a “dangerous thing to bet on” in 2015-16 for Republicans, btw. how did that work out for them?
"


why do you think I went on to say that is a "dangerous thing to bet on?"

Quote :
"No it’s not as bad. But such stances, to me, are automatically disqualifying for a candidate."


I guess it should be automatically disqualifying, because something like that ought to make you a popular support pariah in the realm of Jill Stein or John McAfee (when he was alive) or something--because there ought to be myriad other choices that are so obviously, so wildly better.

Yet here we are. "Just" keeping mum and politically hedging your statements on something as brain-dead obvious as getting vaccinated against a catastrophic pandemic doesn't by itself make you a uniquely, historically horrendous candidate in 2022, because practically everyone else has found one way or another to burrow under even that lowest of bars.

7/27/2022 7:36:34 PM

bbehe
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Hedging your bets on a fucking coup attempt is different than hedging your bets on a vaccine.

7/27/2022 8:42:58 PM

TerdFerguson
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I get the feeling the Trump v DeSantis MAGA schism is going to be talked about for a long time. It’s scary but also could be quite beautiful. So the best thing people can do, is keep talking about DeSantis and definitely never mentioning Trump. It’s like lighting the fuse on the biggest firework in your bag on New Years and you aren’t sure what’s gonna happen.

7/27/2022 8:48:10 PM

dmspack
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https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-former-republicans-democrats-form-new-third-us-political-party-2022-07-27/

Quote :
" The party, which is centrist, has no specific policies yet. It will say at its Thursday launch: "How will we solve the big issues facing America? Not Left. Not Right. Forward.""


How exciting.

7/27/2022 8:57:36 PM

rwoody
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I saw that and said "sounds like something Mr tww likes" then click the link and sure enough lol

7/27/2022 11:36:20 PM

marko
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That is a sure fire-way to make sure we get Trump/DeSantis.

7/28/2022 9:49:38 AM

StTexan
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I kind of hope we have a 4 way cage match. Trumpers vs more sane republicans vs moderate dems vs progressives

7/28/2022 11:11:09 AM

Bullet
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WHY CAN'T WE HAVE RANKED VOTING? WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN??

7/28/2022 3:26:32 PM

qntmfred
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Quote :
"WHY CAN'T WE HAVE RANKED VOTING?"


https://www.betterballotnc.org/

RCV is on the ballot this November in Nevada, but the Democrats are against it there. Dems may be better than the GOP in many ways, but they too act undemocratically when it suits their interests. See also, the Green Party in NC submitted thousands more signatures than needed to get on the ballot this year, but the Dem controlled NCSBE denied them. If people want to vote for the Green Party, that is their constitutional right, and Democrats should not be infringing their rights, especially after all their hand-wringing over the GOP's disregard for democratic principles.

Quote :
"That is a sure fire-way to make sure we get Trump/DeSantis"


this is incorrect, although an understandable and common misconception. which is a reality of the discourse these days that the forward party will have to try to tackle if they want to see any success. I won't go into further details to counter this "spoiler effect" trope here b/c 1) I don't have time atm and 2) most of y'all very online people long ago made up your mind about Yang, and what political teams/players you root for. and that's fine, I get it, I've done the same thing at times. but if you read/watch what the forward party has been talking about, there's not much to dispute. it's more about whether we can turn the ship back toward a saner approach to politics, or if the rot of divisiveness has taken hold too strongly.

[Edited on July 28, 2022 at 6:35 PM. Reason : happy to have a beer with anybody here to chat about what forward party is really trying to do tho]

7/28/2022 6:15:21 PM

The Coz
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You buying?

7/28/2022 7:40:53 PM

qntmfred
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yup

7/28/2022 7:47:20 PM

marko
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I voted Nader in 2000. Lemme get a cookie.

7/28/2022 7:54:50 PM

bbehe
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We just going to ignore all the fraud surrounding the Green Party signatures and them being supported by the GOP for the sole fact they'd be spoilers?

7/28/2022 7:55:32 PM

TerdFerguson
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Quote :
" See also, the Green Party in NC submitted thousands more signatures than needed to get on the ballot this year, but the Dem controlled NCSBE denied them."


There’s evidence that fraud was committed during signature collection. The NCSBE presented examples of the allegations at the meeting they voted down Green Party access.
https://www.ncsbe.gov/news/press-releases/2022/06/30/amid-investigation-state-board-turns-down-green-party-recognition

I don’t get how this story of the evil Dems cheating the Green Party out of ballot access just continues to perpetuate.
Everyone laughed it up when all those GOP gubernatorial candidates in Michigan got booted from the ballot for signature fraud. The NC Green Party was using the exact same contractor. They shouldn’t get a free pass from following the law.
https://www.cbs17.com/news/north-carolina-news/green-party-signatures-in-question-in-north-carolina/

Ballot access might be one of the last hurdles to purely Astro-turfed political campaigns (even if it’s also flawed in a lot of ways). It takes real supporters on the ground, talking to people and getting signatures, to get ballot access. The governor candidates in Michigan make it clear to me. These rich GOP assholes thought they could buy their way to governor. Just cheat through the ballot access requirements and then blast out endless TV and radio commercials about raiding immigrants.

And I’m not even against conversations about making ballot access more fair or RCV. I also think people need to familiarize themselves with those parts of our system that make buying your way into office more difficult. These hurdles are getting fewer and weaker. I fear what lays beyond once they collapse.

[Edited on July 28, 2022 at 7:58 PM. Reason : .]

7/28/2022 7:55:43 PM

The Coz
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Quote :
"yup"

Good to know! Now I just have to buy the gas and drive 4 hours one way for a free drink (and good fellowship, of course).

7/28/2022 9:01:18 PM

Geppetto
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Quote :
"


The merger involves the Renew America Movement, formed in 2021 by dozens of former officials in the Republican administrations of Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush and Donald Trump; the Forward Party, founded by Yang, who left the Democratic Party in 2021 and became an independent; and the Serve America Movement, a group of Democrats, Republicans and independents whose executive director is former Republican congressman David Jolly."


If anything this sounds like they are going to pull off Republican voters. But I am a left leaning centrist and that line up doesn't do anything to get me all moist like a Little Debbie snack cake. The only reason it bills as centrist at all is because Yang is on there, but simply running as a Democrat in 2020 doesn't mean he is one.

I've also spoken many times in the Yang thread about why I'm concerned Yang's policies are bad. Not bad ideas in concept but why they are flawed and would cause repercussions once executed. If we had Yang's universal income, for example, inflation would be way worse. I detailed it out in the Yang thread back then, and it's easier now than ever to see that it is true. Payments to more people -> more competition for basic goods and services -> costs of those goods go up to match demand -> UBI payments cease to yield substantial enough income for those on the lower tier, so now you still require social programs in addition to a UBI program that would be suicide to retract.

I like Yang as a person but I'm not sure how much I could get behind a political movement of which he's a focal point, regardless of how much I crave a 3rd party.

7/29/2022 1:35:05 PM

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