how are you people still making money on this? There's more miners than ever before, but at $5 I don't think you can even pay the power bill...

9/9/2011 10:32:52 AM

because there's a nerdy sucker born every minute

9/9/2011 1:50:31 PM

For the love of God burro, once again big difference in saying that they CAN do something compared with saying that they WILL.

Authority doesn't mean it will be actionable.

You seem to think that everything I said relates to the government actually enforcing upon it. I do say that they will execute their authority if they believe that it will substantially interfere with the USD. Thus, if bitcoin ever got 'big', they could and more likely would come down hard on it. The minutia distinctions that you are clinging to won't matter.

9/9/2011 3:44:23 PM

Arab13, page 6:

Quote :

"For the love of God burro, once again big difference in saying that they CAN do something compared with saying that they WILL. Authority doesn't mean it will be actionable. "

Arab13, page 5:

Quote :

"Won't exist in 5 years, tops. The feds can squash it anytime they want as per US Constitution."

9/9/2011 4:09:34 PM

I don't think it will exist in 5 years for entirely different reasons than the feds squashing it. You're seeing part of the reason now as the value of it plummets.

The risks involved in using it will discourage any major use of it as well. The biggest risk is that the feds could squash it if / when it gets 'big'.

I just spoke with the former chair of the UCC drafting committee whom also has a dim view of bitcoin. There is a reason why several other electronic currencies have disappeared See - eBux. Most of the other ones are limited in scope and reach (the ones that Noen mentioned).

Quote :

"because there's a nerdy sucker born every minute"

9/9/2011 4:17:07 PM

bitcoins forums just got hacked.



funny shit at the same time sad.

9/9/2011 5:06:46 PM

cosby coins are way better than buttcoins

9/9/2011 5:40:56 PM

Quote :

"For the love of God burro, once again big difference in saying that they CAN do something compared with saying that they WILL. "

but that's just it. they can't do anything about a person or group of people making a currency. There is no law allowing them to do so, nor is there any Constitutional authority to do so. That's the whole god damned point!

9/9/2011 11:21:10 PM

^Do you also think that Article I Section 8, the 16th Amendment, and the Internal Revenue Code aren't enough to say ya gotta pay yer taxes?

9/10/2011 12:07:31 AM

do you have anything to actually show that making your own currency, apart from the USD, is illegal in the US? if not, then fine. seems like someone could post a law or a section of the Constitution where it said only the gov't could make a currency if it actually existed

9/10/2011 1:17:41 AM

The US Constitution is often interpreted in ways beyond it's literal wording. As are many other laws. Plus it's generally not wise to provoke those who can make and change the rules.

9/10/2011 12:59:31 PM

so you admit there is no prohibition against people making their own currencies. that's all you had to say, man. was it so so hard?

9/10/2011 11:12:21 PM

Yet another Arab backpedaling after talking out of his ass thread.

Per the wall street Journal, the statute Arab references actually has nothing to do with NotHaus' conviction, because it was removed from the indictment. He was convicted because he copied the name, symbol, and likeness of US currency (aka counterfeiting).
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704425804576220383673608952.html

Also, from the Department of Justice itself, the judgement that specifically says Digital Currencies are not illegal, and cannot be regulated by the US Government.
http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs28/28675/index.htm

9/11/2011 12:52:44 AM

Considering everyone, including you decided read far more into what I posted than intended, and that I never posted a statute.

Really, then what happened to ebux again? That big electronic only currency?

Apparently you didn't really look into the justice publication very much since you missed this interesting tidbit. (it's not very long):

Quote :

"Despite industry assertions that digital currencies are not subject to regulation, as well as the formation of several trade associations and consortiums attempting to demonstrate industry self-regulation, U.S. Government entities are exploring the application of consistent federal regulation over the digital currency industry--which promotes itself as unregulated and anonymous. Additionally, because the value of digital currency accounts changes with the market performance of the backing commodity, any profits earned (capital gains) during the withdrawal of digital currency accounts may not get reported to the IRS unless the digital currency account holder decides to declare the amount voluntarily."

The point being, at apparently it's been thoroughly missed all the wolfweb armchair experts, is that if this ever gets 'big' enough to be viable it will be 'big' enough to attract a lot of attention from the government. Something that the majority of heavy users of bitcoin will be anxious to avoid.

Anyways. I still stand by my assertion that this will not exist in 5 years, regardless of how or why it expires.

9/11/2011 1:49:10 AM

You said that, and I quote:

Quote :

"The feds can squash it anytime they want as per US Constitution. "

To which, I just rebutted with an actual justice department finding that in fact, no, they cannot quash it per US Constitution.

Now you've conveniently backpedaled to say "Oh well they can make a law to make it illegal". Well no shit sherlock, Congress can make any law they see fit. That doesn't mean it will happen, or that anyone is considering it.

Oh and you sending me PM's to save face and tell me how you're a law student and that somehow makes you smarter/better qualified because you have some law professor telling you shit doesn't negate the fact that I just fucking owned your ass in a simple factual rebuttal.

Whaaammmbulance.

9/11/2011 2:54:58 AM

Quote :

"U.S. Government entities are exploring the application of consistent federal regulation over the digital currency industry--which promotes itself as unregulated and anonymous."

Sounds like someone's interested. And where exactly do you think they will derive their authority again? (and no it's not your mom). You've obviously not actually read the entire publication, what they are saying is yes people can do it. You also can choose to not pay your taxes as well.

Oh NOES I forgot to add a blank line! QUICK TWW assume what he typed to mean the most retarded thing it can. Oh yeah periods can and do delineate complete thoughts.

I've said repeatedly that all I was doing above was demonstrating how they could enforce, and entirely so because someone asked. Something you've conveniently forgot or ignored. Damn, man, you've gotten more and more self centered since you were the tall awkward kid on night runs.

Really, what is so hard about understanding the difference between saying something could happen and something will happen?

9/11/2011 12:48:37 PM

Nothing at all. Backpedal complete and I'm out

9/11/2011 1:18:40 PM

Why were you ever 'in' again?

9/11/2011 1:23:14 PM

knocking on $7 - volatility is going to kill this stuff.

9/11/2011 5:41:27 PM

^ Well it's not backed by anything really.



Reminds me of Noen et al. so much.

9/11/2011 6:46:07 PM

^Says the kid who sent me a half dozen PM's bitching and moaning.

9/11/2011 7:04:50 PM

this is retarded- anyone who invested in this should kill themselves.

even if they didnt lose any money- its the principle of the matter.

[Edited on September 12, 2011 at 12:48 AM. Reason : -]

9/12/2011 12:47:58 AM

People who had a 1,000,000% return should kill themselves on principle?

Because... ?

This thread has significantly more RAWR RAWR I'M A CLUELESS DOUCHEBAG posts than most.

9/12/2011 8:19:22 AM

one million percent ey?

geez not only is the media ignoring ron paul,

how could they miss this too?

9/12/2011 8:24:26 AM

9/12/2011 1:06:55 PM

Quote :

"Considering everyone, including you decided read far more into what I posted than intended, and that I never posted a statute. "

how the hell do you fucking figure? hahaha. you never posted a statute because, when challenged, you found that none existed. that is some seriously awesome backpedaling. I mean, if I may borrow a phrase from Shadowrunner, that's some Tour de France level backpedaling.

Quote :

"You've obviously not actually read the entire publication, what they are saying is yes people can do it."

so, which is it. is it illegal or not. first you said it was illegal. then you said it wasn't. now you are implying it is illegal again. MAKE UP YOUR FUCKING MIND.

remember this? don't try to say "i never said it was illegal." because you most fucking certainly did. Then you quoted two parts of the Constitution and got owned as to whey they didn't fucking apply. And you want to be a god damned lawyer? Holy shit.

Quote :

"If a State cannot coin money, then a private entity in the jurisdiction of the US cannot as well."

http://www.thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=614388&page=5#14964004

Quote :

"I've said repeatedly that all I was doing above was demonstrating how they could enforce"

Yes, the gov't can run roughshod over your rights all day long. We've seen it plenty of times. That doesn't change the fact that even in this case they have zero authority to squash a private currency.

Quote :

"Well it's not backed by anything really."

neither is the US dollar

9/12/2011 1:17:02 PM

oh look, now the wannabe lawyer is sending ME PMs. didn't want to get thoroughly trashed in public, so hide behind a PM. you spoke out your ass, you got called on it, and then you cried about it in PMs.

9/12/2011 3:21:33 PM

UCC article 1-201 (24) "Money" means a medium of exchange currently authorized or adopted by a domestic or foreign government. The term includes a monetary unit of account established by an intergovernmental organization or by agreement between two or more countries.

Which as been adopted by every State. http://www.orderofmerchants.com/state-codification.html

LoL ok Burro.

Quote :

"From : Arab13 To : aaronburro Received : Monday September 12, 2011 at 3:20 PM Subject : oook Let's not make TT soapbox. So as not to clutter up the bitcoin thread in tech talk (as it's not soap box, you can make a thread in soapbox about this (copy) and link it to the tt thread if you'd like) any further and to re-iterate what's already been said. I'm also responding you personally as all of this can be found in the thread in one form or another. Yes, I was wrong to say that it was illegal to have your own funny money. I've not really supported my initial fault much. (Other than saying they can't coin Money (UCC article 1-201 (24) "Money" means a medium of exchange currently authorized or adopted by a domestic or foreign government. The term includes a monetary unit of account established by an intergovernmental organization or by agreement between two or more countries.) Instead I've mostly been responding directly to questions. Noen said I was wrong on a statute, since I never posted a statute I can't be wrong on something that never happened. "what they are saying is yes people can do it." = it's 'legal', not sure where you got the extra backtracking from on that. The ultimate authority for the US to deal with bitcoin has it's foundational basis in the US constitution, just like all other federal law. It didn't just erupt out of nothingness. Thus I posted the relevant bits (I should have included the commerce clauses as well it seems) that establish any relevant (abeit future) laws on the subject. Quote : "And you want to be a god damned lawyer? Holy shit." There's a lot more involved in legal education than posting on tww and spending 20 minutes looking at stuff. The first bit I posted was more of a off the cuff opinion and not a full fledged legal argument (which are many many pages (TLR)). Honestly I don't really care that my unresearched initial thoughts turned out to be incorrect, that's how you learn to begin with. Mostly b/c I don't really take tww seriously, so why would I seriously research something before posting every single time? The major problem with it (private currencies) is when you start getting into interstate/international commerce (both involving the US and, not single vendor exchanges like all of Noen's examples) with a private currency then you've begun to end run the taxes and regulations that the federal government really likes. Also, you're never going to see major companies using this because you can't exchange it with anyone else but those who deal in that currency. This means you can't take your bitcoins and cash them out for other hard currencies or get a loan with them or any of the other myriad of financial transactions that you can do with actual money. There's too much risk with bitcoin as a money for anyone with real assets to invest in or use. At least above board. That DOJ bit that Noen posted just highlights how fast the feds are pursuing new ideas with regards to how they can regulate / tax / control private currencies, in part because the only ready broad use for it is for illegal transactions (drugs, guns, slaves, etc). Quote : "neither is the US dollar" True to a point, you can buy gold with a dollar, I doubt you could with bit coin. There is no trust in bitcoin. Other actual functional electronic currencies are backed with gold typically. Their uses are usually limited though. And that's all the time I have to waste on any of this."

No crying here. I can man up and say that it's not actually illegal. Which I did say before, more than once. (that I was wrong)

[Edited on September 12, 2011 at 3:29 PM. Reason : The infamous "crying pm"]

9/12/2011 3:23:48 PM

I can't tell if this is really great trolling by Arab or an epic facepalm.

Just wanted to come in here to say that I have a new build, with 2x GTX580 Lightning Extremes in SLI. I'm going to give this a whirl for a short while and see if it's a bunch of bullshit.

9/12/2011 4:20:11 PM

Quote :

"True to a point, you can buy gold with a dollar, I doubt you could with bit coin."

Ha.

You can buy a dollar with bitcoin and you buy gold with a dollar. Do I need to connect the dots here?

9/12/2011 5:03:37 PM

You can buy a dollar with corn.

9/12/2011 5:04:30 PM

Well, you can't live in a corn.

9/12/2011 5:06:03 PM

Quote :

"UCC article 1-201 (24) "Money" means a medium of exchange currently authorized or adopted by a domestic or foreign government. The term includes a monetary unit of account established by an intergovernmental organization or by agreement between two or more countries."

and therein lies more fail. it's another counterfeiting disguise. Notice it says "currently authorized by a ... government". If I make my own currency, it doesn't run afoul of that definition. You lose AGAIN.

Quote :

"The ultimate authority for the US to deal with bitcoin has it's foundational basis in the US constitution, just like all other federal law."

and where is that authority? Where is the part of the Constitution which says "the people can't make their own currency." Show me that, and I'll shut up. or, are you saying the "foundation" is the big stick the US gov't carries? If that's the case, then you can just say that the US government doesn't allow the people to do ANYTHING, cause they have a big stick and can shut you down whenever they feel like it. That's a pretty useless argument, if that's where you are going.

Quote :

"The major problem with it (private currencies) is when you start getting into interstate/international commerce (both involving the US and, not single vendor exchanges like all of Noen's examples) with a private currency then you've begun to end run the taxes and regulations that the federal government really likes."

That wouldn't make the currency illegal. it would just make the gov't try to get in and get some of the money involved. not the same thing.

Quote :

"Also, you're never going to see major companies using this because you can't exchange it with anyone else but those who deal in that currency. This means you can't take your bitcoins and cash them out for other hard currencies or get a loan with them or any of the other myriad of financial transactions that you can do with actual money. "

irrelevant to legality

9/12/2011 5:13:37 PM

k i read the first 2 pages, and this one, and i really don't understand what bitcoin is/its purpose is. plz to explain in layman's terms.

9/12/2011 5:20:34 PM

http://www.weusecoins.com/

Watch their video.

Essentially it's a digital currency. Every time there is a transaction some fancy cryptographic keys secure the transaction. Then the network of computers online verify that transaction by running a mining program. Once the transaction is verified the coins become available for transfer once again.

9/12/2011 5:35:17 PM

bitcoin isn't money

9/12/2011 5:42:09 PM

You don't need to learn about bitcoins. These aren't of any interest to you. Move along.

9/12/2011 5:42:54 PM

These aren't the corn we are looking for.

9/12/2011 5:43:34 PM

ok that made me lol

9/12/2011 5:44:37 PM

imago troll Arab13

It is legal to create an alternative medium of exchange, as long as you don't mislead people into thinking it's legal tender (Liberty Dollars were seized because they were too much like our fiat money, with terms like "DOLLAR" and "TRUST IN GOD" and similar artwork).

I mean how else could Ithaca Hours have stayed strong for two decades?

9/13/2011 6:36:24 AM

Well he did indeed send me a PM, and to that I must say that although his basic idea (money=legal tender) is sound IMO in that you must eventually convert to legal tender to pay your taxes (and from it if you get government funds in any capacity), his citation of the Uniform Commercial Code is a bit worrying, because although it is a uniform state law (the longest of the uniform laws), it is not federal law, and the federal government has much more say about what constitutes money.

9/16/2011 6:02:04 PM

Quote :

"Well he did indeed send me a PM, and to that I must say that although his basic idea (money=legal tender) is sound IMO in that you must eventually convert to legal tender to pay your taxes"

that's fine and dandy, but no one was talking about the creation of a legal tender. they were talking about the creation of a currency. Dude just keeps moving the goalposts because he was completely and utterly wrong. Yes, you would have to convert your currency into something else in order to pay taxes, and all you have to do is find someone willing to do the exchange. That has no bearing on whether or not the currency was legal in the first place

9/16/2011 6:16:18 PM

this gem also came from his PM:

Quote :

"Burro thought I was posting it to say that bitcoin wasn't legal. I was posting it for a entirely different reason. Bitcoin simply isn't money."

9/16/2011 7:02:55 PM

yep. he moves the piss out of those goalposts, lol

9/16/2011 7:10:43 PM

:carlface:

Quote :

"No crying here. I can man up and say that it's not actually illegal. Which I did say before, more than once. (that I was wrong)"

And since it seems I have to spell it out to you, moving on to different issue. Bitcoin isn't money.

9/17/2011 12:17:44 AM

brb gonna j/o to the general concept of bitcoins

9/17/2011 2:10:21 AM

I pulled out of this about 2 days after I saw how embarrassing the conference was.



You can build a house out of steel, but the house is no good if you build it on a poor foundation.

The internet is a very poor foundation for the steel house called bitcoin.



In other words, you build a impenetrable safe on the titanic, and the titanic sinks, the impenetrable safe is worthless.

9/17/2011 4:43:02 AM

Quote :

"And since it seems I have to spell it out to you, moving on to different issue."

of course, cause you got assraped before when you tried to make a claim.

as for "bitcoin isn't money". it is. it is a medium of exchange. which is the definition of "money". to which you will bitch that it isn't a physical medium. and to which I will note that nowhere does the definition require it to be a physical medium. Linden dollars are very much a type of money, but they aren't a physical medium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money

Quote :

"Any kind of object or secure verifiable record that fulfills these functions can serve as money."

9/17/2011 9:23:46 PM

Good luck with that then.

9/18/2011 12:48:00 AM

9/18/2011 10:06:54 AM